Class system in Poland - does it exist?

I don't downplay personal achievements and improvement. But titles were inherited and as such useless in determining personal qualities.

We had our title for saving Prince' life.
1- someone else might have saved many lives but because they weren't high born nobody cares.
2- does a deed like that pass down on kids, grandkids etc? Even if we assume that such parent would manage to raise his kids in that spirit that is the end of it. Grandkids, great grandkids have nothing to do with it.

Does that go for all slavery ?

@Lenka
Titles gets inherited depending on the country, as far as I know many titles are returned to the royalty in the U.K and are temperary. While other countries knighted a person in to the status group of nobility and all his future offspring.

So yeah, the group identity and membership/status is hereditary.

Titles were useally more linked to location which one administrated in the name of the king or governed his own controlled land.

In Poland ski at the end was far more common then formal titles, and anyone having former titles except that of Princes/king could easily be spotted as a sellout to foreign rulers.

@johnny

Just because American southern aristocrats had slaves, doesn't mean every aristocrat everywhere had slaves. More commonly were surfs, servants or indentured servants.

I agree with Lenka.


Being part of szlachta often wasn't any kind of achievement - because people were simply born into it. Also, being part of nobility didn't give anyone automatically noble character. So I'm not sure what's your point and what you fret about so much. I don't consider people with noble roots to be better than others. For me personally character and deeds are more important than titles.


No, it doesn't o_O

And it doesn't mean ALL Southern aristocrats had slaves.
My point was: parent would manage to raise his kids in that spirit that is the end of it. Grandkids, great grandkids have nothing to do with it. Yes ?

We were discussing Poland, weren't we?


Depends on a period.

And as you said 'we' where you a foreign nobility or one of those sell outs?

@Paulina
Then you don't seem to value traditions, inherited customs or knowledge.

Poland does have a king, PiS made a law about it even.

@johnny reb
I disagree, very often relationship between son-father can be problematic and relationship between grandfather and grandson develop better.

So it can even skip a generation or two, with regard to behaviour. Such skips are often attributed to "black sheep" in the family.

@Lenka
Yes, which is why I found it strange that titles were mentioned.

Can't find which and where the "we" you mean was used in which context.

We could been used as in "we here on PF", "we the szlachta" "we Poles" "we humans"
Please be more specific,

With regard to my background, all that is left for me now is my surname and traditions and coat of arms. I highly dislike anyone mocking or pointing out what I have lost due to external reasons which were out of my control.

It only fuels my desire to build it up tho, I will show em all!!!

I'm sorry, but should we go back to the center of this discussion? It is impossible to argue that social class does not exist in Polish society, as it does exist in absolutely every single society in existence. Of course, social classes change throughout time with general changes in power dynamics between groups within a given social space. It is, therefore, the question of how social scientists divide the classes or what class behavior/practices they recognize in a given geographical or economic space.

In the case of Poland, it is incredibly outdated to talk about Szlachta, as the power of this particular class is gone. Representatives could through time aspire to change the sources of power and therefore their class, through for example investing in cultural capital and becoming cultural elites (like high academics) or investing their economic capital and becoming business elites (like developers or brokers). Or do non of these things and become any other social class (precariat, workers etc). So both of these are true at the same time- social classes exist and old social classes are dead.


It is genuinely hard to argue with someone who believes social stratification is a positive thing. This is a very basic difference in seeing the world and I am sorry this still needs to be discussed. I am sorry you feel like you lost imaginary power and virtue. Respect and being a good person do not come through blood and this we were able to prove already in the 1950s, and thanks god, because if it did? It would mean you would have to carry all of the abuse and exploitation your ancestors did toward people who worked for them. And that would mean you would never be able to be a virtuous person. But it doesn't, and I'm sure you are.

@mamamikazala
You got some nerve, please provide proof that family abused anyone. There are witnesses stating how they miss my family and clean things were when they were asked for historical reasons to retrieve more information about the location we were forced to abandon.

I am fairly convinced of my capabilities due to my ancestors achievements, and as such. That confidence is tracked by blood, your arguments does not change that.

Nor hereditary rules, you keep living in your bouble of imagination yourself.

Wow, that's a very arrogant and self-centred thing to say. Sorry, but traditions, customs and knowledge are not restricted only to nobility.


What law and who is that king of Poland? lol

@Paulina
I was talking about attitude towards traditions in general. No need to twist my words.

Jesus Christ is the king of Poland.

@Kashub1410, but we weren't discussing traditions in general. We were discussing szlachta/nobility. So why did you twist it into an unfair and untrue conclusion that I don't value traditions, customs or knowledge in general? Bad, boy, Kashub1410, bad boy! lol I thought you're better than this.


Oh... Now that's a plot twist! lol ;D

Yes, Jesus Christ is the King of Poland, but by common law ie tradition, so it doesn`t count in our discussion.


I said we are all equal coz that is written down in our Constitution. The differences are a result of social background and people`s preferences, certainly don`t arise from the existing law.

@pawian
@Kashub1410
You have no idea. It was Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Poland.

@Paulina
It was with regard to relativism, things happen for a reason. The kind of attitude like: "what ever it all floats anyways" doesn't hold true when talking about rocks, cause they don't float!

Thinking that every group is the same cause of few bad apples, many regular apples and a few good apples is simply wrong!

Some groups are not only different but, better for society and the world as a whole! End goals and lifestyles too!

@pawian
Are to be treated equally in contact with the state, the state is not supposed to favour one group over another based on social class. Which still holds true to this very day, as we all know it has more to say about loyalties with political group governing the country to a larger degree then one's social class.

Why is it hard to understand that the state isn't everything and that individuals still have a go at someone based on their social class outside of the state?

Sorry, but what does it have to do with my statement that for me someone's character and deeds are more important than what social class they belong to?


You sound very elitist. All kinds of groups are needed for society. What does it mean "better" for society? Are nobles better for society than factory workers? Or than doctors? Than firefighters? Someone can view nobility as a group of parasites, who didn't work for what they own. I'm not talking that much about Polish nobles nowadays since a lot was taken from them by communists. On the other hand, they didn't work for what they owned in the past either though.

@Paulina
I am an elitist, for a person to grasp as much as possible about society at large. A person needs time and experience to learn. One cannot read books to the fullest while carrying stones, which is why societies have elites and specific groups oriented towards such purposes.

Thinking that a simple worker can rule as good as a person who has been trained and prepared his entire life for it is fantasy and wishful thinking.

Which socialists and left leaning people try to lie about and give false promises to people about it, who after experiencing leadership positions either succumb to corruption or fall short of thinks they knew nothing about. Then we hear complaints about I'll suited politicians, well what can I tell you. People chose to dig their own grave

@Kashub1410, the fact that a person who has been trained and prepared his entire life for something doesn't mean that he can't be a human scum or a bad leader. To believe otherwise would be exactly that - fantasy and wishful thinking.


A simple worker can be well educated and have great leading skills, but life could force him to take up such a job. At the same time someone born into a noble or rich family may be either too lazy or too stupid to lead or to take over family business.

Of course, usually the better someone is prepared for some role the better he or she will be at what they're doing, but these days you don't have to have noble roots to do that.

@Paulina
Indeed, anyone can work as anyone formally speaking. Full on chaos, then people wonder that nothing gets done or that it's uorganised. Like talking to a wall

@Kashub1410, you're putting words into my mouth. That's not fair.


I didn't claim that. What is wrong with you today?

@Paulina
Emotional reaction, ill chill from the forum a lil bit

Cool down, reconsider certain things and come back as a decent person again, the one you were in the past as Grunwald or Oathbreaker. Coz now you have turned into a ...... you know what I mean.

Agreed.

Some people here seem to be confusing historic social classes (szlachta no longer exist of course) and modern social stratification.

Money plays a huge part (as it always has), as does education, tastes, habits and outlook on life.

Anyone who doesn't think there's a class system in Warsaw should ask someone in a fairly average place like Bemowo how much time they've spent in people's homes in either Stare Młociny at one extreme or Kozia Górka at the other.

You don't see many bin men at the opera either.

That was so profound...I will try to memorize it

The best you can do is to print it in big font and put on the wall in your room.

He still wouldn't be able to read it.

@jon357
Poor people think like that, and believe it. I just find that mentality disgusting.

How would you react if I based on my perception of somebody on how much water one has? Sounds redundant, stupid and weird right? But, when in the Sahara desert, a small oasis and only a few armed men are allowed access. It suddenly doesn't look wrong anymore now does it?

No matter if everyone there had gold bars after gold bars in their posessions or briefcases filled with dollars.

So many people are blinded by greed, I almost feel like giving up on you all.

Millions and millions.

Poland is an especially materialistic society unfortunately; this has arisen through a whole smorgasbord of factors.


It is, given that the world has more than enough resources for is all. It's how they're distributed that is key.


Violence, coercion, trickery and theft are at the root of both the historical class system and modern materialism. People can pretend that there was something 'noble' about it in the same way that mafiosos' grandchildren are more likely to be lawyers than extortionists.

Of course not as the bin people are humble and happy while most of the opera people are pompous snooty greedy, ungrateful and unhappy snobs.

That's why it is harder for a rich person to enter the Kingdom then it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.


Two different classes with two different outlook goals.
The meek shall inherit.

Payola very often, though there are certainly Americans far more cultured than him.