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Bribery and corruption 'fact of life' in Poland?


poland_
13 May 2013  #1
Fifty nine percent of business managers told the consulting firm's '2013 Fraud Survey' that bribery and corruption are common in Poland.

"The results make for uncomfortable reading," says the report. "We found that executives and their teams are indeed under increased pressure - and it is being felt personally. They are also bleakly realistic about the market challenges they face."

Ernst & Young found that there is a lack of determination to eliminate bribery from business in Poland, with only 40 percent of company representatives telling the Fraud Survey that they are turning their attention to the problem. "


thenews .pl/1/12/Artykul/135240,Bribery-and-corruption-fact-of-lif e-in-Poland

Do you have any first hand experience of bribery or corruption in your business dealings in Poland?

What can be done to stamp out bribery and corruption in business dealings in Poland?
Barney 14 | 1,469
13 May 2013  #2
Very little, older EU countries have difficulty preventing corruption some governments play an active role in hiding corruption and preventing investigations into it, the best you can hope for is that it becomes hidden from public view.

On a side note, I wouldn't place too much faith in Ernst and Young's auditing abilities especially when it comes to reputable business practices. This company were not too exhaustive when auditing Banks.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
13 May 2013  #3
Do you have any first hand experience of bribery or corruption in your business dealings in Poland?

The best example I can give is with public schools. I don't want to give specifics, but it is often very difficult for an outsider to rent classrooms for language classes from public schools. You'll often find advertising for language schools (that have their own building somewhere else) inside such schools, too. I had a plan for a while to give free language classes to poor kids - using existing classrooms and convincing native speakers to give up some of their time to do the job. Everything was in place, but we found that schools were very unwilling to cooperate - even though it would directly benefit the children.
smurf 39 | 1,982
13 May 2013  #4
I've a mate that works for one of the main banks here. He works in the corporate lending/business dept.
He told me that when a loan in agreed for his clients he gets a golden handshake that's can be between 5-10% of the total loan.

Not bad when you're organizing a short term loan of a few million zl for some large corporate account.

As Barney says though, I agree, I wouldn't put much faith in what Ernst & Young say.

Oh, personally I've 'bribed' tons of train ticket inspectors. Sometimes when travelling from a small station like Gliwice/Ruda and the ticket kiosk isn't open you can buy the ticket on the train. Most of the time, the inspector will split the price of the ticket with you, so a fare that's usually 12zl becomes 6 and goes into his pocket.

Used to 'negotiate' prices for sleeping places on longer trips too.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 May 2013  #5
What can be done to stamp out bribery and corruption in business dealings in Poland?

Make the law simple, punish severely.
Ant63 11 | 403
13 May 2013  #6
It doesn't help if the courts are corrupt too, which, from experience with the family courts, I know is true.

He told me that when a loan in agreed for his clients he gets a golden handshake that's can be between 5-10% of the total loan.

Yes , if you travel in the right circles there are willing providers for a fee. Seen this myself also. It also operates at a much lower level as well.

One thing I respect about the Poles is their ability not to miss a trick to make a few zlt out of somebody. Ruthless some of them.
Harry
13 May 2013  #7
It doesn't help if the courts are corrupt too, which, from experience with the family courts, I know is true.

And a lot of the ones which are not corrupt are either incompetent or so lazy that they may as well just flip a coin in order to decide cases.
OP poland_
13 May 2013  #8
He told me that when a loan in agreed for his clients he gets a golden handshake that's can be between 5-10% of the total loan.

That sounds like fraud to me. Why would anyone give 5-10 commission for a loan unless it was a wee bit dodgy...
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 May 2013  #9
And a lot of

Largely due to your butt buddies not making any verification of court people after the fall of communism.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
13 May 2013  #10
Butt buddies? My, greggy, isn't it too early in the day to be thinking about gay sex?
smurf 39 | 1,982
13 May 2013  #11
That sounds like fraud to me

I wouldn't call it fraud, he's not being deceptive to get a few extra quid.
the person who gets the loan gives it to him as a kind of bonus I suppose.

He told me it's very much common practice where he works, indeed in the industry as a whole. It's not the biggest Polish bank, but it's certainly in the top 5.

I know a few stories about doctors and hospitals being pretty corrupt, but I don't know if it still goes on.
My missus' mother needed an op about 8 or 10 years ago, waiting time was 18months for this operations, a brown envelope was exchanged and she went for the op about 10 days after it.

But like I said, it was a while ago, so I don't know if it still goes on.
OP poland_
13 May 2013  #12
I wouldn't call it fraud, he's not being deceptive to get a few extra quid.
the person who gets the loan gives it to him as a kind of bonus I suppose.

Ask yourself a question.. Why would someone give away 5-10% to get a loan?

Sounds to me like your buddy is telling them what information to put down and which papers to arrange ( fabricate). If the information supplied is not 100% accurate, then its fraudulent.
smurf 39 | 1,982
13 May 2013  #13
Why would someone give away 5-10% to get a loan?

I couldn't tell ya, I'm not Polish, but it seems to be the done thing here.

If the information supplied is not 100% accurate

Why wouldn't the info be accurate? I would presume that he doesn't want to get fired for committing fraud. Beside, if the info wasn't then his client mightn't get the loan, so he'd be shooting himself in the foot.
newpip - | 140
13 May 2013  #14
It is not just a Polish phenom, I'm afraid.

There are loads of international companies that do businesses this way. My husband deals with this daily. Most recently and Polish was a bank but all companies all over the world do this. They just hide it better.
kaz200972 2 | 229
13 May 2013  #15
I know a few stories about doctors and hospitals being pretty corrupt, but I don't know if it still goes on.

Yes it does, the Polish lad I was 'left ' with needed a knee op last year, when we visited the hospital in Lodz (he hurt the knee more whilst we were visiting his grandparents in Lodz) we were offered the op quickly for 'present'.

The lad in question has also been offered places and a guaranteed degree from various universities, again for a 'present'.
All credit to my 'sort of child' he refused all offers including the knee op.
It happens a lot in Poland but it also happens alot in other countries too.
Dont gag me yo 7 | 156
13 May 2013  #16
Delphi what was the motive belong giving free lessons to kids in school?soliciting business?
OP poland_
13 May 2013  #17
I couldn't tell ya, I'm not Polish, but it seems to be the done thing here.

I have heard of companies securing EU funds for a 10% fee in Poland. But banks, especially employees of banks taking 5-10 fees. I guess if the only alternative is payday loans then maybe.
Monitor 14 | 1,821
13 May 2013  #18
I have hard that specialist doctors working in public hospitals offer shorter waiting queue, when patient pays for 5min consultation in private clinic where they usually "work" in the evenings or weekends.
monia 3 | 212
13 May 2013  #19
Fifty nine percent of business managers told the consulting firm's '2013 Fraud Survey' that bribery and corruption are common in Poland.

This forum will never stop entertaining me . Every time ( once every few weeks I open this site and every time I find some entertaining subjects about my country )

Are you serious warszawski ?

Better start tracking the affairs in the old EU financial institutions , banks and enterprises , where bribery has become so well camouflaged that it is difficult to pinpoint, ( through the long years of bribery practices ) Who ,but the Ernst & Young were involved in the scandal of Enron's creative accounting. Try harder !
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
13 May 2013  #20
I have hard that specialist doctors working in public hospitals offer shorter waiting queue, when patient pays for 5min consultation in private clinic where they usually "work" in the evenings or weekends.

Which is why working privately should be banned for those on full time contracts in the public health system.
scottie1113 7 | 898
13 May 2013  #21
I know a few stories about doctors and hospitals being pretty corrupt, but I don't know if it still goes on.

It does. I'll give you some specifics later.
monia 3 | 212
13 May 2013  #22
specialist doctors working in public hospitals

Is not that a global problem ? Do you think Poles invented it ?

ADAMS, 61 years of age, previously admitted
to making fraudulent claims for health care
proceeds and to willfully attempting to evade taxes. In addition to the prison sentence, ADAMS
must forfeit $3,724,721 to the federal government
and make restitution in the amount of $3,136,293
to the various healthcare providers that he defrauded, including Medicare and Medicaid

justice.gov/usao/wvn/news/2013/march/Adams.pdf

The latest campaign was launched in December 2010 and has uncovered a series of complex schemes used by medical professional including use of off-shore accounts and payments made by insurance companies.

It comes as Treasury figures show that £13.1 million has been clawed back from more than 2,000 medical staff since the HMRC launched its crackdown.

One doctor has paid back more than £1 million while one dentist has repaid more than £300,000, it was reported.

telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/t ax/9348282/More-than-1000-doctors-and-dentists-targeted-by-HMRC-o ver-tax-evasion.html

Here is the full text saved on my PC about the EU big scale bribery example going in millions of Euro not some few Polish zlotys :

Among ordinary citizens, one of the most enduring images of the EU is that of the 'gravy train' - MEPs and bureaucrats in Brussels determined to get their hands on as many taxpayer-funded perks as possible. Given the EU's continuing popularity crisis, you would think that the various EU institutions would be all over this issue like a rash.

Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 May 2013  #23
But banks, especially employees of banks taking 5-10 fees.

Sure It's nonsense, small things are done according to strict rules and there's no way to go around it, in case of let's say 20 million investment loan, each case is unique, so credit decision is subjective to some degree, however on that level it's not made by one guy and is verified on several levels. Additionally, not that many companies would survive 10% more in capital costs. In short words, dragon tales. Which of course doesn't change a fact that Poland has huge problems with corruption, funny that the same people, who scream here the loudest, on another occasion will tell you that Poland is in excellent situation and all who don't agree are Rydzyk followers from ex-PGR in Poland Z.
Barney 14 | 1,469
14 May 2013  #24
So, let's see the Commission tighten up the rules, perhaps taking inspiration from the UK's ministerial code of conduct,

There is a tiny problem with the UK ministerial code of conduct it seems to allow money laundering for Drug cartels, terrorists and states like Iran.
monia 3 | 212
14 May 2013  #25
He retired in February, received the Commission's approval to take up posts with Fleishman-Hillard, a public relations firm, the Royal Bank of Scotland and associations representing German banks and Turkish commodity exchanges.

It means in short he worked for them as an EU commissioner , geting favourable legal provisions or EU financing for them and now he gets legal money for it as a payroll emploee . Anything but a joke .
Barney 14 | 1,469
14 May 2013  #26
The "revolving door" is a problem in all market economies
smurf 39 | 1,982
14 May 2013  #27
working privately should be banned for those on full time contracts in the public health system

Naw, don't agree with ya there, people should be allowed to work as much as they want in their desire to make money. Taking bribes shouldn't be allowed, but if someone wants to work then I don't see a problem.
kondzior 8 | 946
14 May 2013  #28
The USA talks about freedom all the time but its one of the most insanely controlled, spartan societies you'll ever meet. Its not a question of accepting corruption, its a question of taking into account that people are human beings, and there is a certain elasticity between following rules and allowing a bit room for common sense or even, on occasion, individual whims. When you are pulled over by an Polish cop for instance, it feels like you are dealing with a human being. He may ticket you, he may warn you, or he may even let you go. The decision is up entirely to his own judgement and personal conscience. In the USA, when you are pulled over by a cop, it feels like you are dealing with a cyborg. He has no human conscience, and the rule of law is simply part of his programming. This type of rigidity creates an atmosphere that is almost suffocating. Americans live in a fenced in society. The home is a sort of sanctuary, the only place where they can feel free and unobserved (to the point of excess), as long as they keep the door shut and the windows covered. The moment they step out its like they are in a prison courtyard. When you see a Pole walking down the street, its like he owns the place, and you'll rarely find them confined within the privacy of their homes.

I'm not sure of course whether the excessive level of corruption in government and anywhere else is merely a consequence of having this type of freedom. I have spoken with Poless who have been living in the USA during the 60s and 70s, and they tell me in those days Americans experienced a lot more freedom, and people acted more like human beings, much like the Poles do today.
OP poland_
14 May 2013  #29
Are you serious warszawski ?

Serious about what exactly, Monia?
monia 3 | 212
14 May 2013  #30
Do you really beleve that a survey made by a dubious agency based on assumptions is worth of something ?
It is a survey that measures feelings not cases of real bribery . It has nothing to do with reality . People in Poland talk about bribery, but not too many of them encountered it. It is a recollection of a past time where people felt the need to thank a doctor for a surgery by giving him a present ( a bottle of good cognac ). Comparing that kind of behaviour with bribery is ridiculous . But most Poles consirer this as a bribery . So assuming that Poles are pressured to give a bribe when considering small presents , brings this survey` results to a bin . There are cases of bribery which are prosecuted and taken to a court , like in every civilized country . This shows real level of bribery .


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