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Poland's birthrate on the decline


Paulina 13 | 3,325
17 Jan 2023 #331
No Paulina, you will not fight against me because I ignore all the leftist feminist and other extreme movements.

You're clearly not ignoring the fact that less children are getting born in many developed and developing countries (including China even) though. So, are you going to just complain about it and get nostalgic about the times when women were sitting at home, or are you going to propose some kind of solutions that will be acceptable not only to men, but also to women?

What does "plenty" mean? We are talking about concrete numbers - hard statistical data

Then give me those numbers :) How many men in the whole world are doing menial, physical jobs and how many work as doctors, lawyers or scientists? Do you know?

And how many of those men doing those menial jobs would gladly not work and sit at home if they could afford it?

If there were enough women who could reconcile having careers/jobs with bearing and raising more children,

Are you sure that this is the only problem? I think that people in general in more developed countries are more likely to have less children than in poorer and more rural countries for more reasons than just women working. Women worked in the past too and they had kids. My grandma worked hard all her life on the farm and in the field and she raised three daughters.

People have higher excpectations these days, they care more about their kids and their well-being, their future, so they wait until they'll earn enough money to provide well for their kids. Developed societies become less rural and so people don't need to have so many kids (and can't have so many, because there's less living space in the cities).

Unless something really bad happens and we'll get back to Stone Age, progress won't stop. So, couples would have to make conscious decisions to have kids and have more kids then they would normally have these days. You can't make them do that, so how will you encourage them?
Lenka 3 | 3,076
17 Jan 2023 #332
So a girl that at 20 would have her first child, at 30 lets say the last one. At 37 the last one is in full time education. And the women receives 1,5 of a nice wage for the rest of her life...
GefreiterKania 25 | 1,187
17 Jan 2023 #333
@Paulina and Lenka

I gotta go, ladies. I'll answer your questions and explain the details of my brilliant new matriarchal system tomorrow.
Paulina 13 | 3,325
17 Jan 2023 #334
And there's another problem. Our technological and industrial progress has it's downsides - increased infertility. I've watched once a very detailed and extensive documentary on Planete about all kinds of substances produced by people that contribute to hormonal imbalance in women (and in men too, I imagine, but the focus was on female infertility). Artificial fertilizers, some plastic toys, plastic bottles, substances with which carpets and upholstered furniture is soaked with in order to make them non-flammable, cosmetics, etc.

And air pollution:

theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/17/air-pollution-significantly-raises-risk-of-infertility-study-finds

And we have some bad air in Poland... :/
Alien 12 | 2,675
17 Jan 2023 #335
increased infertility.

There is something else. Decrease in interest in sex and increase in interest in LGBT.
Paulina 13 | 3,325
17 Jan 2023 #336
@Alien, are you serious? lol

I mean, I know that there is this "incel" problem in Japan, for example, but it doesn't have anything to do with LGBT...
Alien 12 | 2,675
17 Jan 2023 #337
@Paulina
Why not, as I was young LGBT was👎and now is 👍and it is simpler for a man to find another man than another woman. I didn't have that opportunity thats why I'm married😀.
GefreiterKania 25 | 1,187
18 Jan 2023 #338
At 37 the last one is in full time education. And the women receives 1,5 of a nice wage for the rest of her life...

Yip. That's the idea. The whole basis of the new system that I propose is to generously reward the women who bear and raise children, and to create a whole civilisation who appreciates their role of mothers (the most important role there is, way more important than any "career") and praises it. In other words a new matriarchate in which men work for their families and - through taxes and generous social system - also lonely mothers. Basically, it would be made easier for women in the new system to achieve material safety by bearing and raising children than by getting a job.

Of course, if there are still women who would like to pursue carrers or even remain minimum wage slaves in Biedronkas or factories, then by all means - let them knock themselves out (in more senses than one) but such life choices should be merely allowed and not rewarded by the society. As I said, it's a matter of survival of our civilisation - otherwise we will be replaced by Muslims and Africans in the not so distant future.

Down with the current patriarchate that turns the overwhelming majority of women into cheap workforce! Long live the new matriarchate!

I'm a genius. :)
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
18 Jan 2023 #339
@Paulina
I am not ignoring anything other than the insane far left agenda. Fair for everyone in anything does not exist. The idea of a utopian world with equal rights, and everything else being equal is called socialism. Socialism has been proven to not work. Since the beginning of time, there have always been men and women who were better than others at certain tasks. Those people became leaders because of their natural ability. This will never change. There is a very large section, one that is growing, of women who want to return to more traditional roles and values systems. There is nothing wrong with that. Traditional roles and values lead to population growth in the past and would likely do the same today.

PiS had a good basic idea with 500+ when it comes to declining birth rate, but it wasn't enough. The PiS anti small business economic policies should have changed to promote small business growth and rewarded new fathers on the job as well. If you want more children, by definition, you want more and stronger family units. Creating an environment for all of this requires strong economic policy to support family and population growth. Maybe give families reduced tax rates while children are still living at home? Maybe combine some of what @GefreiterKania suggested with a reward for women who stay at home raising the children? Or some combination of ideas?

One thing is for sure though. Men and women are not equal competitors. As much as the left wants to even the playing field, they cannot do it when women do not match men when it comes to physical labor. Without men doing the heavy lifting, society crumbles. If women stop teaching and things like this, we end up with a dumber society, but society remains and grows. If you have ever been to a ghost town, a modern one, they all have one thing in common. When men stop taking care of the city or village, it only takes a few months before things start to fail, and in a few years, nature reclaims what remains. Nature in the end will always win, and it will in this discussion as well.
OP johnny reb 40 | 8,625
18 Jan 2023 #340
@PolAm
Excellent Post !
You couldn't have made it any simpler without offending her.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
18 Jan 2023 #341
I am not ignoring anything other than the insane far left agenda

Why so obcessed? You are banging on about it without anyone really saying staff about it.

@PolAmKrakow
Judging by the poll I posted (you know, the one that restarted this discussion) it seems that even more women go completely the opposite direction.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
18 Jan 2023 #342
@Lenka
I am not disputing the poll numbers at all. Polls are what they are, a small section targeted to illicit a response, sometimes targeted to get the response the pollster is looking for. That said, it could be completely accurate.

What I love about Polish women in general is that they are well educated. It is refreshing to have intelligent conversations with women here when most are open to actually discussing things and are not hardened into a position on any subject. Most recently though, there has been an adoption of extreme views by many people and those views are taken largely from what is happening in the US. And in case people didn't notice, the US could erupt into a civil war over what's going on and almost did last January.

When a man or woman makes a sexually charged joke in the workplace, it is sexual harassment. But when an adult teacher is telling 6 yr olds about trans, gay and other lifestyles in the classroom it is called education? Do we see how completely fvcked up the standards are? Just because some people want something does not make it the right thing or make it ok. What about the woman who identified as "blind" who dumped chemicals in her eyes to make it happen? Or the man who chopped his arm off because he "identified" as disabled? Or people now identifying as children when they are adults? My point being is that when you open pandora's box, you can't put all the bull$hit back in.

The idea that men and women are equal does not hold water either way. Women will never physically dominate men, and men will never be as emotionally or mentally adept at handling raising children. Sure, there are outlier cases. So, when you take this issue of declining population and try tying it with discussion about work, equal pay, rights for men and women, you get a big mess. The feminist wants and way of life wanted by the extremists will never come to pass because they are un-natural. Just like acceptance of 50 yr old men identifying as 6 yr olds and attending kindergarten will never come to pass. The sooner people wake up and realize that what is best for humanity, and population sustainability is the natural direction of XX and XY roles, the sooner the world will return to balance.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
18 Jan 2023 #343
those views are taken largely from what is happening in the US.

Or maybe that is how they see things?

As to the rest again why bang on about trans, sex ed and all? What it has to do with birthrate in Poland?
OP johnny reb 40 | 8,625
18 Jan 2023 #344
why bang on about trans, sex ed and all?

Because these "alternate life styles" have taken away from the traditional man woman role that has worked so well throughout history.
All this perverted sick crap that our youth is being indoctrinated with has our children so confused that they don't even know what bathroom to use and think condoms are something you put on hotdogs to keep the flies off them.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
18 Jan 2023 #345
@Lenka
If you think those opinions are not imported from the US then it is not acknowledging the obvious.

It all has to do with the same leftist woke movement. They are all connected. If you want equal rights for women, how can you ignore the other people? Leftist ideology is all tied together. Why do you think men skew more to the right? It's not because any man gaf about what gays do in the privacy of their own home, or that women have the right to vote or that other basic truths in life just exist. It is because what the left asks most people to do defies the natural order of things. So what do you think would happen if men suddenly said to women, "you're right, we are going to make the following changes.....But you have to give up all the other un-natural arguments and discussion points trans, lgbtq and other items that offend the right." How many women or leftists will go for that? My guess is close to zero because they all have tied themselves together with all the un-natural causes.

These are just my opinions and observations, and I could be wrong. Then again, there are a lot more people that think this way and that makes the left uncomfortable. More and more men and women daily are tired of these discussions and find the agenda of the leftists simply unnatural. When social media influencers, women, start saying that feminists and leftists have gone too far, then you have people starting to talk honestly. When a man, who simply wants to work, protect, support and take care of his family is called a misogynist, the world has reached a very unsafe place. All of these opinions and discussions have a direct impact on birth rates because people form opinions and ideas based upon the information they have, and then they act on those ideas. Like not having children because they cant have "their life" if they do. Birth rate decline is less about actually child bearing and more about how we raise the children that are actually born.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
18 Jan 2023 #346
You talk about people wanting more traditional roles, people being tired of leftism etc but neither of those are supported by the birth rates or the poll.

People who want traditional life have the kids. It's those who do not have kids that have to be convinced

Birth rate decline is less about actually child bearing and more about how we raise the children that are actually born.

No, it is about that moment when a couple (or just a women, depending on the circumstances) decide they want to have a baby. Of course what happens after that is important for society but doesn't affect birth rate.

Btw, I never EVER heard a qomen saying she won't have a baby because she cannot be stay at home mom.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
18 Jan 2023 #347
@Lenka
Well then you never met my wife or any of her friends who were adamant about staying home until the children were in pre-school if not longer. There is a growing group of people that fit this demographic. I never said it was the majority group, only that it is a growing group that realize societal values are going into the toilet.

The birth rates are directly impacted by leftists raising the few children they do have. They are brought up with different values and many continue on not only as leftist but become extremists. Women, as feminists are less attractive to strong men. This is just a fact. Our attitude is simply that if you want to do it all on your own and think you can, then go right ahead and do it, but do it alone. And you see more and more of these women single, childless, and over 40 now wishing they may have done things differently.

No kids, and no husband, but hey how is that career and vibrator at night treating you? You can always become a lesbian though and celebrate your freedom to be one. Or maybe you prefer to chop off your breasts and try being a man? Maybe identifying as a giraffe is more your style? Or perhaps you are unsure if you are a gay lion or a heterosexual piranha? The leftist position is not only contributing to birthrate decline it is embarrassing to the human race. Granted it is not all about Poland, but every day the influence of the US grows in Poland, and nearly every problem Poland has now socially has come from the US. The only difference is that the US has no population decline because of immigration, Poland does not.

These are real demographics. People don't want to talk about these things because they are uncomfortable, and challenge the political narrative being brought by special interest groups and extremists. The political narrative and policies of the extreme left are fvcking insane to any rational thinking human being.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
18 Jan 2023 #348
were adamant about staying home until the children were in pre-school if not longer

Do you try to comprehend what you read?
Or did your wife and her friends said ' I won't have kids unless I can stay at home'?

No kids, and no husband, but hey how is that career and vibrator at night treating you?

And this is exactly the dismissive attitude that will keep the crisis going. The fact is more and more women in relationships don't have kids and if they have a vibrator it's in addition to and not instead of a man.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
18 Jan 2023 #349
@Lenka
My wife specifically said, when dating and as a condition of marriage that I had to allow her to stay home and raise the kids as long as she wanted and at least until they were all in preschool. If I could not afford, or was not willing to do this, she would not have married me. Many women say these things, only the woke people want to ignore the growing number of women saying exactly these things.

Dismissive attitude? Maybe, but I am not concerned with anyone else's perception of my attitude. Your assumption about women in relationships is completely not in line with the facts. Women within the far left are not in marriages or relationships that could result in children. They are alone because they make that choice. They don't need a man to make them happy. And they replace the man with a vibrator, not in addition to.

I see you though. You are on the fence on these issues. You want to think the best of the woke society, but you know everything they are doing is not right. I tried to accept them with their fvcked up views too, but they have gone too far. The left and the far left point of view is directly impacting population decline, and the longer it goes on the worse it will become.
Alien 12 | 2,675
18 Jan 2023 #350
replace the man with a vibrator,

So they can have a dark-skinned one....
Paulina 13 | 3,325
18 Jan 2023 #351
the new system that I propose is to generously reward the women who bear and raise children

That's all sweet and dandy, but that's an utopia.
Firstly, Polish state can't afford this (and I'm not sure if any other country can).
Secondly, if majority of women would go for it and stopped working, who would fill in for them in their jobs? Men can't magically multiply lol So, developed countries would have to import immigrants from poorer countries to do women's jobs? But that's what right-wingers don't want, right? lol

If I could not afford, or was not willing to do this, she would not have married me.

Wow... That's "romantic"... lol

The birth rates are directly impacted by leftists raising the few children they do have.

This is bullsh1t. People with left-wing views are a pretty small minority in Poland and even they have kids. Both my brother and his wife are anti-clerical and in the last elections they voted for a left-wing party and yet - they have a kid.
GefreiterKania 25 | 1,187
18 Jan 2023 #352
That's all sweet and dandy, but that's an utopia.

Well, at least it's worth trying. We don't know whether it will work or not if we don't try.

Wow... That's "romantic"... lol

Women aren't romantic. At all. There's not an ounce of romanticism in most women.

Men are, by and large, a romantic bunch.

If a man likes a girl, he doesn't care about her education or material status. If he falls in love with her, he will marry that girl no matter what - that's romantic.

Women, on the other hand, are very reluctant (to put it mildly) to date/marry men who are lower than they are on the social ladder, have worse education, lower social/material status. One very often sees men "marrying down"; women - not so much. That's why we have all those 30-40 year-old spinsters, still waiting for their Prince Charming to arrive on a white horse and take them to a fairy castle... lol But that's not romanticism, that's stupidity (easily confused).
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
18 Jan 2023 #353
@Paulina
Left wing has nothing to do with anti-cleric agenda and everything to do with the woke agenda. Congratulations to them and their one child, perhaps two more will make an impact? Romantic? Any couple not talking about having children and the conditions of which they want in a relationship to facilitate that are going to have a disastrous relationship. Its called having real conversations at a mature level. People with left wing view in Poland are growing and that is directly in proportion with population decline. Spend any time in any big city in Poland and you will see thousands of childless women past childbearing age who are successful in their careers, going out with the girls on Saturday night. Congratulations on their unfulfilled and empty homes, they sure can go shopping for all those designer clothes that will keep them company at night. They dont need a man. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
Feniks
18 Jan 2023 #354
The left and the far left point of view is directly impacting population decline,

Really? And there was me thinking that draconian abortion laws, lack of affordable nurseries/childcare facilities, mass emigration of young people over a couple of decades, reliable contraception and job insecurity have far more to do with population decline. Last but not least, perhaps women are tired of doing the lion's share of the work involved in bringing up children. What evidence do you have for the leftist 'woke agenda' impacting birth rate other than your personal opinion?

nfluence of the US grows in Poland, and nearly every problem Poland has now socially has come from the US.

And you want to throw guns into the equation.
GefreiterKania 25 | 1,187
18 Jan 2023 #355
draconian abortion laws, lack of affordable nurseries/childcare facilities, mass emigration of young people over a couple of decades, reliable contraception and job insecurity

You might be onto something here, Feniks. It is worth noticing that by and large godless Czechia has significantly higher birth rate per woman (1.71) than overwhelmingly Christian (at least in theory) Poland (1.38). Looks like social/job security, free nurseries and playschools, proper health care and much lower emigration rate worked better for Czechia than rosaries and holy water did for Poland. Go figure.

That's why we need a whole new system. But I repeat myself.
pawian 200 | 21,490
18 Jan 2023 #356
women are tired of doing the lion's share of the work involved in bringing up children

Yes, I have had the same views for decades. . :):) Most males believe that taking care of kids and the household is such a piece of cake for women coz they are naturally predestined for it. In fact, a typical woman has two jobs - the one she goes to and the other at home. While males mostly think of their career.

PS. Good you are back. :):):)
Feniks
21 Jan 2023 #357
You might be onto something here, Feniks.

Well it's far more likely that the factors I mentioned have greater relevance than men here banging on and on about the left and far left.

I am not sure about Germany, but I know that at one time in the UK Polish women were giving birth to more children than their counterparts back in Poland. I don't know if this is still the case now but presumably Polish women felt that more support was on offer. This article is old but the points are still relevant:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366063/Polish-population-growing-faster-UK-Poland.html

we need a whole new system.

I agree. 500+ has not been the incentive the Polish government hoped for but it's not just a question of money.
Btw, there is nothing wrong with men participating in your wonderful new system once the children have been born ;)

Most males believe that taking care of kids and the household i

Is women's work and they are not prepared to sacrifice their jobs/careers in the way that they expect women to.
pawian 200 | 21,490
21 Jan 2023 #358
in your wonderful new system

Brave New System. :)

not prepared to sacrifice their jobs/careers in the way that they expect women to.

Sad but true.

However, it isn`t only males` fault .....

Mothers need to work harder on their sons and teach them how to engage in sharing duties with their future partners.
OP johnny reb 40 | 8,625
21 Jan 2023 #359
Mothers need to work harder

However, it isn`t only males` fault .....

I agree, they have become too spoiled with all the modern conveniences making them lazy.
pawian 200 | 21,490
21 Jan 2023 #360
they

Who exactly?


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