Are you lot still blabbing on? lol
It is understandable that the OP would be surprised about how his thread, which he just started to get a surname for a Polish character in a work of fiction, so ballooned out in a discussion of the proper English word to denote the Polish szlachta
, but those who know this forum will realize that here it is merely another occurrence of an Englishman wanting to demean Poland and so he claims that Poland never had a "genuine" nobility. This claim is ridiculous as most Indo-European societies have understood nobility, from time immemorial, to be a military caste with special rights and privileges. It's rather simple really and there is nothing "romantic" about calling the Polish szlachta
noblemen, but jon, in an hilariously sad and patronizing way, wants to claim otherwise and argues that the English word "nobility" designates people far above any mere Poles:
It's tempting - especially for someone today whose ancesters were szlachta (Freemen) to draw that distinction, however it is essentially imposing a comparison with other cultures who have a genuine nobility and romanticising a past that was far from romantic. Norman Davies describes the situation rather well.
The above quote is hilariously sad because he invokes Norman Davies who uses the very word "nobility" to refer to the szlachta
in the history he's written! Alligator pointed this out to jon:
In "God's Playground" he is using "nobility" as an exact word to describe szlachta. If you read his book as you claim, we shouldn't disscuss this.
The argument should have ended there, but jon, being without any shame, keeps up his silly attempt deny that Poland had noblemen and instead continues to insist that she had mere "freemen". The truth is that Poland did indeed have freemen and that these were people who did not possess szlachta
status but were not serfs, the latter being people who were owned by members of the szlachta
. If in England the people possessing freeman status had to serve in the military, then so much the worse for those poor old sods (oh Angleterre
, oh Auqalung!). In Poland ,and in many other Indo-European societies, freemen were free from this responsibility, but just because freemen had military duties in England does not make the Polish szlachta
the equivalent of "freemen". Of course Alligator, and others, had already demolished jon's foolish argument but another Englishman comes to his aid:
All the Rights,none of the responsibilities,so,no,not Nobles
Hahahaha! The patronizing message from England is: "Poland you cannot use our word "nobles" for your szlachta
because your szlachta
just weren't responsible enough." Do these Englishmen believe that they are Poland's parents? "Son you cannot use the car because you haven't shown yourself to be responsible enough" Hahahaha! This is absolutely absurd, but according to jon, Isthatu has:
As usual, you've cut straight to the heart of the matter.
The real "heart of the matter" actually being a display of how silly some English people can be.
YEAH! HAHAHAHAHA! Des, are you a robot?
You find laughter robotic? I do not. It serves a great purpose in our world. This world contains sad people that want to insist on self-aggrandizing false hierarchies, and so they build their phantasmagorical pyramids. Jon and Isthatu want to claim that their country's social pyramid was higher than Poland's. "See England had higher levels! England had Gentlemen and Nobility, but Poland oh she is lower. She topped off at mere Freemen". This is absolutely pathetic and indeed it is funny too, and so I laugh. The power of laughter rumbles and shakes down these silly conceptual pyramids. It deflates gasbags.