Differences between Irish, British, Polish, American and other nations culture, tradition, music - loose talk

I too say yes and no to your argumentation. True the Nazi/Soviet periods harmed the national fabric but it didn't start there. It started with the partitions. The partitions forced Poland to sit out the industrial revolution and remain a largely peasant society. What industry emerged in Polish lands -- such as collieries, textiles and distilling -- was mainly in foreign hands. The 19th century was also a time of heightened international sharing -- Russia became known for the Bolshoi, caviare and vodka, Italy for opera and cuisine, Germany for its composers and philosophers, etc., etc. But Poland had to sit that out as well. Without hteir own country, who was to promote Poland's heritage? If Chopin had not emigrated to France, the world may never heard of him. To 20-year interbellum was to short a period to offset those arrears. Hopefully the current "good change" govenrment will take up the torch. They already have and remain concerned about making up for lost time. All hope is in the Morawiecki Plan! Let's hope it succeeds!

I didn't know Jews designed our cities, what the hell? Are you sure? What would they know about designing European cities? Have you seen Israel? It is not exactly a work of art. I know, however, that Italians definitely designed our country's urban dwellings for most of our ancient history but our kings consulted with our local talent also, from time to time. Other major designers were the Dutch, the played a part in designs in the west and north of Poland. I haven't heard anything about Germans or Jews.


Rediscovered? You are not entirely correct. In communism our culture thrived but after WWII came a period of darkness and Russians came to be associated with the worst kind because the terror endured far longer than the War itself but during later decades things improved, our educational system became one of the best (with no exaggeration) in Europe and People were culturally adept. This was a great period, people had many different aspirations unlike today: money. People were knowledgeable, conversed a lot, partied a lot and of course complained about communism all the time. The culture was there and even Catholic Church enjoyed due freedom and respect. Compare this to today's culture, I do not see people have fun on Smigus Dyngus, people speculate whether to buy each other gifts for Christmas, church attendance is lower than ever, there are no public festivals where we could see folk art in action, we also don't have much of the old school tradition of fortune telling form a key, all this and much, much more was present in communist times, so you have it backwards: it is now that we are witnessing our cultural decline.


Not entirely, both Irish and Slavic people were slaves at considerable periods of their nations' histories.


Yes, that is what I think too, but why are we like that?! It is pathetic that our countryside carries our culture and our middle class is following something else.


I understand. However, I think if a language is still alive it can be reintroduced into the mainstream, it is not quite lost, I think it is convenient for some authorities to keep English language where it is in Ireland.


Some creatures are never ladies and a woman to me is a lady, so those females who don't behave like women do not belong in a world of women or ladies, examples include Rozumiemnic who swears her head off at an instant or Paulina who is unstable, bitter, low and nasty (I now have to post this fragment to her and the other to Rozumiemnic).


I know that, only stupid Poland does the idiotic thing.Catholic Church in Poland would gain a lot if it loosened up a little when it comes to accepting our Slavic pagan heritage, Dziady is a very old tradition, it is rooted in our Slavic foundations. I think that if in Ireland - a stronghold for Catholic religion - a pagan tradition can coexist with such notoriety alongside Christian traditional framework then in Poland it can do as well.

You are :) As Roz pointed out Fitz simply means 'son'. It derives from the French 'fils'. And as she says Fitzroy is a name for a royal bastard son, the 'roy' deriving from the French 'roi' meaning king. Irish names are quite complicated really, especially the feminine forms.

For unmarried women, the Irish patronym Mc (Irish word for son is 'mac') also has a feminine form 'Nic' (daughter)which is rarely used nowadays but you do come across it from time to time. Most women simply use the Mc form though some Irish speakers prefer to use the traditional feminine form. Then there's Ní also meaning daughter of. It's a corruption of Iníon Uí meaning daughter of.

It was the custom in the Irish education system to use the Irish forms of names and we always addressed our unmarried teachers as Iníon Uí......... for example Miss Ryan would be addressed as Iníon Uí Rian. Married women are Bean (pronounced ban) literally meaning 'woman of '. Some of the older teaches still like to use the Irish forms, especially the ones who are very keen Irish speakers.

The childrens' names also are written in their Irish form in the school registers and the roll is called in the mornings using the Irish forms. Although I have a very old Saxon surname (there's not many of us in Ireland despite what Sussexguy thinks!) it was ruthlessly Gaelicized, a Ní was stuck in front of it and the actual name was altered to try to make it sound more Irish! I remember the dilemma we had when the 'new Irish' as we now call them began arriving from Poland amongst other places as there was simply no way to give an Irish form to the surnames so they went into the register in their original forms.


Succesive governments have tried very hard to promote the Irish language and it is the official language of the country. However at this stage Irish will never be our first language again and to be honest it was a good thing for us that we adopted English.It was having English as our first language that allowed Irish emigrants to prosper to the extent that they did in places like America and Australia. It's what allows us to operate globally in business and so on.

The problem lies with they way Irish is taught within the education system. You know how hard it is to become fluent in a second language and that's basically what Irish is for Irish people. If the teaching methods are bad, then people don't learn effectively. At primary school level the Irish teaching is very good and the children really love Irish but once they reach secondary, it falls into the trap of way too much written work, formal grammar, boring texts to read etc. The kids simply lose interest and as the language becomes more advanced, it's more difficult, they're not making progress, they stop trying, you know what I mean. The summer colleges run in the Gaeltacht (native Irish speaking parts of Ireland)do a brilliant job of total immersion and the kids love it. Did you watch that clip of Coláiste Lurgan? It helps of course that the Irish are musical people so they can learn to sing this way in two weeks. I think it's great the way they take dance music or whatever, translate the lyrics to Irish and incorporate the Irish instruments like the fiddle and 'box' the melodeon. The video of 'Wake Me Up' sung in Irish is great stuff.

irishcentral.com/culture/entertainment/irish-college-teens-amazing-talent-cups-song-and-avicii-video-222995071-237775231.html

I know that Poland has much more culture than just 'folk' culture but to me there's two problems, one is that Polish folk culture is very regional. It belongs to the people of those regions but I don't think the nation as a whole really 'feel's that culture. It's something separate, to be observed or watched as a spectacle. For example Polish folk dancing is beautiful and so colourful with the magnificent costumes and you know you're watching living history, but, these dances are 'performed' if you get my meaning and you're not going to walk into a pub or a house and see people in their t-shirt and jeans get up and do those dances. Whereas in many parts of Ireland (where my own sister lives for example) this kind of thing still goes on regularly in people's homes. And it's cross generational. A child of seven will be playing the fiddle alongside a neighbour who's in his seventies. Now I'm sure that's how it was in Poland a hundred years ago, or perhaps not? Did people only dance and sing at festival times, dressed in their special costumes? Or did they dance every Saturday night as they did in Ireland? Could someone answer that question maybe?


Irish cuisine as such isn't the most exciting although it has improved greatly in the last twenty or thirty years. Certain traditional Irish dishes are delicious but the range is limited, nothing like the variety of Poland. The main reason for this again is historical. As a small island, we didn't have the influence of the bordering countries to east and west that formed Polish cuisine, as an English colonly our cuisine was influenced greatly by England but for the majority of people it was influenced more by extreme poverty. To give you an example Jonathan Swift wrote in 1720 about 'the miserable dress and diet and dwelling of the people' and how they were charged such enormous rents by their English landlords, that they were reduced to 'living in filth and nastiness, on a diet of buttermilk and potatoes without a shoe or stocking to their feet or a house so convenient as an English hog-sty to receive them'. Jonathan was of course an Anglo-Irish man and one of many such who saw the evils done by his own people and sought to draw attention to them and to right those wrongs. Indeed, after the departure of the last great Gaelic chieftains into exile, it was ironically, the Anglo-Irish middle classes who championed the cause of the poorest native Irish and led the fight for Irish freedom.

Anyway having said that, Ireland despite being so tiny, is one of the main producers of beef in the world, ranks in the top five. As for quality, as I said the cattle are fed entirely on natural pastures. They are hardly ever brought indoors because the climate is so mild and for the few weeks of the year that they are brought in, they're fed on natural silage harvested by the farmer from his own pastures. They are not given hormones in their feed or antibiotics. Every piece of beef you buy in Ireland is traceable (it's written on the pack you buy) back to the farm and the herd that it came from. Ireland has one of the best food safety records in the world. Our dairy products too are exported worldwide, even to China, because the quality is so high.

I've actually lived on a sheep farm (was renting a cottage there) so I've seen how the animals are kept and how well they're treated. I've seen the lambs in spring, I've seen the sheep being shorn outdoors in the fields in the summer. Three generations of the farmer's family would be there, really lovely to watch. Also there were cows in pasture across the road. They basically have a stress-free existence, fresh air, green grass, lots of space. Totally organic lifestyle, not crowded into sheds and pens.

But our public transport system is abysmal. That'll bring you some comfort I'm sure!

I don't know if it was happening 100 years ago. Possibly. Your general impression on folk dancing and singing in today's Poland is nevertheless correct in my view. In England they still do it and I remember being taught an English folk dance in Durham County, but I don't remember anyone teaching me a folk dance in Poland (except for the polonaise which used to be a kind of "folk" dance for the Polish gentry).

In general, Polish folk traditions were attempted to be wiped out in the Russian partition alongside with the Polish language. It was only after the 1905 Revolution that the russification process in the Congress Kingdom of Poland was eased up and Polish was brought back to schools again. Likewise, the Polish folk traditions in the Prussian part of Poland may have been subjected to some kind of pressure to be stopped. I don't know any details of that, however.The best conditions for them existed in the Austrian partition whose Polish-Ukrainian province Galicia was granted autonomy and local government. The evidence for those vivid folk traditions in Galicia can be seen in the theater play by Stanisław Wyspiański "Wesele" written in the beginning of the 20th century.

That's very interesting Ziemowit. It's almost like two sides of the same coin. Ireland lost its language but retained its musical traditions, Poland vice versa. I was reading a bit about it and the conclusion was the wartime death toll and shifting of ethnic groups within Poland severely disrupted the continuity of folk traditions. The Communists endorsed folk music as a wholesome expression of national identity but controlled it in the form of 'official' folk troupes who gave (and still give) highly polished but somewhat stagey versions of the original. It said that 'for the most part the real stuff withered away as the image of folk music became tarnished by the bland official ensembles'.

Speaking of Poland, you should make an important distinction between Polish folk dances and Polish national dances. The latter originated from folk dances, but later were developed so much they may distinctly differ from the country originals. There are five Polish national dances: krakowiak, polonez (the one I was taught at school), mazur, oberek and kujawiak. Polonez was originally called chodzony and is a gentry dance, though having distant roots in folk music. The quickest Polish national dance is oberek (also known as obertas), the slowest one is kujawiak.

There are a lot of folk dances in Poland. The Silesian ones, for example, are: trojak, mietlorz, drybek, waloszek.

Now, can you recognize this dance?

Up until about the 1950s the Irish would meet at the crossroads of the neighbouring villages and towns to dance every Saturday night. They'd often dance all night and go straight to mass on the Sunday morning. The Dancehall Act of the 1960s brought the dancing indoors but recently the custom has been revived. The great thing is that as it's an informal outdoor party, there's no age restrictions so the very young children can take part and all generations get together which is the natural way for people to live, not boxed off in age groups.

youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ0LUZUtziM

Ooh Ziemusz that's fun, guess the dance! I know what the Polonaise looks like so it's definitely not that. It looks pretty boisterous so I'm guessing oberek?? Their costumes look as if they've been heavily influenced by Riverdance, I doubt that decorous Polish maidens ever wore their skirts that short! And thank you very much for the information regarding the distinction between folk and national.

Silly girl, this is Irish stepdance, they tell me!! :-)

Oh you are evil! I did say their costumes were influenced by Riverdance though! Yes, now what you've shown us there is the form of Irish dancing costume that became very popular in the 1960s, the costumes became every more elaborae and the false hair pieces were introduced at some point. I have seen kids dressed in this gear but it's becoming less popular now, thank God. However there are unfortunate mothers who spent hundreds of euros on these costumes and are determined to get use out of them so we'll see them being handed on for a while I'd say! I think it was an attempt to create a 'dancing costume' as worn by the European nations such as Poland.

We didn't have such fancy costumes again I suppose because of poverty. In Wicklow where I lived for a time, the old people would talk about how as recently as the 1950s many poorer children went barefoot and kept their shoes for schooldays. There was a woman with ten children and the kids stored their shoes amongst some rocks a couple of miles down the road from their cottage, carried their stockings with them and changed into the shoes and stockings when they were nearer to school, in order to save wear and tear. Shocking really isn't it?

Majority of people in Poland lost their ability to dance all these folk or national dances in 50' and 60'. Except for those who were interested in that. There're some groups at the movement that do work on reviving all those dancing traditions.

Interesting though that Ireland have no regional folk traditions.

yes, when I was in Dublin with my dad in the 90s there were a group of lads on the corner, and dad says 'I see nothing has changed then, except they wear shoes now'

Well the four provinces do have differences but they are less marked and not quite so obvious than it might be in other countries. Also with the country being so small and the tradition of itinerant musicians and poets travelling around from place to place, I suppose songs, dances, stories etc spread around the country in that way. Then again we didn't have the ethnic diversity that old Poland had, one people, one culture I suppose.


The only way to get this kind of practice going again is for schools to organise it and get the kids out there doing it. The only problem I can see with that is that the Polish tendencey for perfectionism might take the fun out of it and turn the kids completely off. But the kids won't learn it at home so school has to take over the role of promoting these things and revitalise the customs. There's something very wrong when a Polish kid is clamouring for Irish dancing lessons (and they do you know) because they've seen Riverdance but they know nothing of their own folk traditions.

I overstated things for the sake of conciseness. Jews ran commerce, crafts and industry whilst Germans designed, built and organised municipal facilities and local-council adminstrations as well as setting up industry.


In my polemical fervour I too sometimes make sweeping statemtns. One cannot say "no public festivals". St Dominic's Fair in Gdańsk (only just concluded) or January's Polish Carollers' Fest in the southern mountains are some exceptions, and there are others. But surely not as many as there should ne. Many Poles go in for the folk culture of America's black slumland (rap music), but avoid their own like the plague. Mickiewicz always comes to mind: You praise all things foreign and think they are best, not seeing what you yourself possess!


Off topic but it reminded me of one of the ribald nursery rhymes of my youth: There was an old woman who lived in a shoe, she had so many children she decided to get married.

Another goes: Little Miss Muffet sat on a tuffet (what's a tuffet?) eating her curds and whey. Along came a spider and sat down beside her and said: "What's in the bowl, b*tch?"

Or how about (a bit more risqué, but we're all adults, innit?):
Old Mother Hubbard went ot the cupboard to get her poor dog a bone.
But when she bent over, Rover drove her, 'cause he had a bone of his own!

I've been told my jokes are so good I should be on the stage.* There's one leaving in 10 minutes!

P.S. Would an anglophonic European get that "stage" in Americanese is short for stagecoach?

Now that's a very good question. For some reason I always imagined it referred to a tuft of grass but I've just checked and apparently it can be either a tuft or clump of something (such as grass?) or a low footstool, so we're none the wiser as to what she was actually sitting on!


Yes, in the context of the sentence we would. We've seen enough of those old cowboy movies in our part of the world :)

Visually Polonez appears as the slowest.


He he he, that's funny, grandpa Ziemow tricked you but he wasn't even trying (it wouldn't be the first time he tricked a woman - viagra does wonders!), I have to apologise to Lenka, what a goose. The accidental trick that's now a joke is much better than your "Hello Sassexgay!" when I actually laughed at you. You now made me laugh three times, other time was when you made fun of me and it worked for the first time, it was actually funny!


Yeah, I wrote in general, for those few once every few years for me seem like nothing. In some even bigger cities there is almost nothing of a sort happening. In contrast in Pomeranian region there is something happening on regular basis.


Yes, that's right, schools and homes are where children learn and then as adults pass it on but at the moment it looks bad. Polish have tendency to perfectionism? It's a mixture of chaos with some perfectionism usually. The problem lies somewhere else, it is something of a phenomenon.

I am amazed that you are so young and yet you are so brilliant, Sussexgay!

To be truthful it's more a tendency to neurosis. Poles are very neurotic and rather obsessive, just look at the hypochondria and constant worrying about their livers. Also Poles treat things like folk dance with a sort of reverence which strips it of its original function as a form of celebration and expression of joy.


Ok then Citizen Troll.


He did indeed, fair play to him. Good man Ziemusz. Sadly, CT you can't understand that Irish people love that kind of thing and it only endears Ziemusz to me even further. As for the pic he posted, I thought it might be a kind of new wave in folk dance, you know the younger people trying to do some fusion thing, make the costumes a bit funky (in the Riverdance style) etc.

No, I like the Gay one more but Citizen Troll is a good one too, I leave you the choice. I could be the most famous Polish gay from Sussex.


? What can't I understand? Sadly, you are thinking in your terms, I found it funny how you got fooled, I had a laugh, that is all, nothing more, nothing less to it, relax a bit. You think that I assume some dissonance is taking place, that's your problem and your bad judgement of character, but this is what came across a lot in western countries, you think in negative terms of others, you must be like that too or people who surround you.


You must give me some evidence of Polish perfectionism because we are far from being perfectionists. However, yeah, we seem neurotic to most westerners, it's just the way it is. Also, I think you may have gone to some folk music concert and saw Polish people stand there and just watch the dance, well, what else are we suppose to do? We don't jump up and down at concerts like Americans do, we listen to the music, to the words, we watch the spectacle, the movements and we absorb it all; it is more meaningful that way. Music or dance is not just a celebration of joy, it may also be a sexual encounter (a form of courting between men and women like Polonez is) like rock and roll which was meant to carry a sexual subtext. It may also be a reminiscence of past, sad or cruel events, nothing to do with joy or celebration.


No, you are the brilliant one, the way you sweep women off their computer desk chairs is uncanny.

We don't have time..........


I see you've been influenced by my illustrious countryman Oscar Wilde. Now tell me to which of Oscar's epithets I refer.


Can you tell me of a few such Polish dances?


Now that is the sort of silliness up with which I will not put - Winston Churchill.

Why are you not surprised that I prefer Marilyn Manson music over Oasis? Oasis are a bit boring, Manson plays heavier, more versatile music and has more interesting voice than either of the Gallagher brothers. Was Churchill trying to be funny there or was it you? I ask because you are a funny girl.


Kujawiak


To his gay one, he dressed like a girl but since I'm gay now I may do the same, do you have those hot leather skirts that are the new thing? I want to know if they feel the same as my biker shorts (I seriously, do have them). Polonez is a sexual dance and we really do not need Oscar Wild to tell us that, so I do not see your point, what point are you making Atcha? You are trying hard to make a point, I like it.


You would have time if I was Ziemo, you always explain to him his shortcomings but his mind is just like a brick wall that can not be penetrated - Oscar Wilde (while he was in bed and thinking about the Winston Churchill's head)

Heavens to Betsy! You've been suspended, now how did that happen?


It's a quote attributed to Churchill. An overly zealous young assistant (probably much like yourself) altered the text of a speech that Churchill had written because one of the sentences ended with a preposition. Churchill made a note in the margin 'this is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put'. Churchill was thus demonstrating to the minion that he was well aware of the rules of grammar and that he would write as he chose and scatter his prepositions wherever he wanted them to be and that one altered his words at one's peril. Stalin on the other hand, wouldn't have said anything, he would have just sent him to Siberia for fifty years.


In what respect does it commemorate a sad event? From what I can see, having looked it up, it's a slow, gentle dance in the nature of a lullaby, not a lament. I've never heard of a folk dance that's in the form of a lament, though there's plenty of 'sad' dances in more formal dance forms, such as ballet. Perhaps Ziemowit could enlighten us as he's very well versed in cultural matters relating to Poland.


Well sadly as it turns out, none at all, as I most unaccountably confused Wilde with George Bernard Shaw. This is a constant problem when one has a plethora of illustrious countrymen. It refers to a quote regarding dancing which has been attributed to Wilde, Robert Frost (but he doesn't count because he's American) and Shaw, but Shaw is the most likely source.


Well, he didn't wear dresses so in what way did he dress like a girl? If you mean the long hair, floppy bow round his neck and his cloak, that was standard dress for Bohemian types at the time, artists, poets, musicians, many of whom were very much heterosexual with a string of ladies in tow. It was part of what was known as the Dress Reform movement, a reaction against the stiff, uncomfortable, restrictive and often unhealthy clothing of the Victorians. For ladies it meant soft, flowing dresses worn without corsets, for men loose suits with soft collars instead of the startched things around their necks.


If I were Ziemo.......if you're going to go around correcting the English of native speakers your own must be above reproach. The alternative is to hand in your trolling badge at the Kremlin customer service desk, relax and find another way to engage with people.


I think you're confusing him with Polly (Polonius). I'm constantly scolding him for the good of his soul whilst I get along famously with Ziemowit apart from the odd mild and very civilised difference of opinion.

Oh My Gosh !
Janis Joplin returns.
Who is this little girl from the U.K. that is tearing up the show "America's Got Talent" ???????
Courtney Hadwin is her name and she is only 14 years old !
What a voice she has.
Damn she is good.
I am betting that she will win the million dollar 1st. place prize.
She sure has my vote.

[moved from]


Who ripped off American music? Lets see, The Beatles, This Stones, The Kinks, Led Zeppelin, Yardbirds, Pink Floyd, just to name a few.

All your music came from rock and roll which came from Blues, all invented in the USA. This just proves you lack of knowledge about America, unless youre just baiting and trolling again or both. Anyhow, you sure look like a fool!


Clearly, he is only here for one purpose. To antagonize Americans and start an argument, his usual tacit

you are right. that is why it is so hard for British bands to break the American market. you guys are the best at music. Detroit, Elvis, the Blues, etc etc


Clearly he has nothing better to do... he should realise that we are all Americans, culturally..:):)

Actually, Im grateful for what the British blues bands did back in the 60`s and 70`s

Eric Clapton took blues to the next level and inspired millions of guitar players. Not to forget about such greats as Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck and Alvin Lee, plus many more musicians that came out of England.

I also think its childish to argue about who has the better music or museums, arent they all good?

As an old hippie I still like Janis the best but you are right, they are all great.

Er...you forgot the daddy of them all.
Peter Green.

yes


Fleetwood Mac?

Is it any surprise when Trump has been offending all sorts of different nationalities?

I still laugh when I look at Trump's "coat of arms", which appears to have been designed by a 4 year old. It's exactly what you'd expect of an American with very little understanding of Britain.

They wrote Black Magic Woman and The Green Manalishi, Hes awesome too.

This is when Fleetwood Mac was a blues/rock way band before Stevin Nicks joined and ruined it. LOLOL


and apparently all day and night to do it. sad!