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Weapons laws in Poland. Carrying a concealed handgun?

Ironside 50 | 10,935
21 May 2018 #841
This is false

What is false? Your logic is a 'false' logic or is it your reading comprehension?

Gun laws can effectively keep guns from the hands of unorganized criminals,

So organized criminals can get it no problem, but some petty once have it harder.
In fact I'm right and your are wrong.
I'm talking about PREVENTING criminals from getting hold of guns. YOU talking about MAKING HARDER for them to get hold of a gun.
So, you would infringe people's freedoms, rights of the law abiding citizens in order to make a life of criminals tad harder.
What kind of beehive collective thinking is that? A centralized state worship - you would rather trust some politicians and a state they your fellow citizens.

Funny thought that lefties not unlike you are all for abrasion and killing unborn children in the name of freedom for women to do with their bodies what they will.

Hell, you at the same time deny people to do with their money want they want - for exmaple if they want to buy a gun it shouldn't be a problem for you if you're after FREEDOM.

Which clearly you aren't!
Your standard argument for abolition of all the legal barriers for an abortion is - women will do it illegally anyway. WHY don't you apply the same 'logic' to the gun ownership? ( a rhetorical question)

Because you are not for freedoms and rights of individuals you are for an omnipotent state that would encompass all where you would like to see the tenants of your ideology forced on people - for their own good of curse lol.

So in fact people like you're all for a totalitarian state or are so silly they don't even realize it or are so into believe in some ideology that blindly follow its dogmas.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
21 May 2018 #842
@cms neuf
Six sigma has almost nothing to do with statistics. It is a series of practices meant to reduce waste, defective products, etc.

And speaking of correlation, you cannot measure all those variables as it would be a jumbled mess. Correlation compares two, three variables not 10

And when you compare ownership rates of the states to murders, there is NO correlation as a straight line (line of regression) cannot be drawn since the data points are so scattered
Gun ownership rates increased yet murders went down. Same thing in my city - in the 80s and 90s there was a total ban on guns yet those years saw more murders than any year after the ban was lifted. Riddle me that one


Even Washington compost says no correlation, but surely you know better....

Rofl yakuza members have no trouble getting guns and many members have been gunned down. Japan's murder rate is roughly 1.0. That's HIGHER than new Hampshire and about the same as Utah. But wait those states have far far higher rates of gun ownership than japan. Now how can they have the same or lower murder rates with so many more guns per person?? Cpuld it be because like Washington post article, rand Corp, national review and other outlets show gun ownership and murders have a high Correlation? Of course!
cms neuf 1 | 1,852
21 May 2018 #843
You are again comparing rich rural areas of the US with entite countries. And in this case you are comparing total murders not gun murders.

The six Sigma refers to numbers of standard deviations from the expected result - so for example if there are 35 OECD countries, industrialised democraces iwith market economies, then the chance that each country has of having the highest rate of gun violence is one in 35.

The chance of one country having the highest gun murder rate 30 years in succession is one in 35 to the 29th power. That is a number that will break your calculator. It is also a number there is many standard deviation is away from the expected result.

Of course you can use linear regression to handle many more than three predictive variables - some companies like facebook use regressions and algorithms with even hundreds of variables, probably the same kind they use to interfere in your elections. The only problem is that you need to have many events to cover many variables - in the case of the US then half million gun murders over the last 20 years should be a significant enough sample size.

Of course once you get to this point in your statistics classes you can always revolutionise the academic thought on this issue by showing clearly that there is no correlation.

Given that there are no hard borders between US states; then the level of gun control at state levels is only a minor deterrent to petty or hardened criminals. Gun laws in Chicago did not matter if you can buy guns and ammo in Gary or Milwaukee and drive them to Chicago in an hour or so. That takes less than a minute of reasoning to work out.

Thank God my kids don't have to worry about school shootings. Not sure why they have never been any in Poland - maybe because we don't allow any Muslim hordes in or maybe because it's impossible to get hold of guns without a psychological test
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
21 May 2018 #844
in or maybe because it's impossible to get hold of guns without a psychological test

This obviously. I don't think any sane individual would blame muslims as mostly responsible for shool shootings.
Lyzko 29 | 7,261
21 May 2018 #845
@Ironside, you apparently didn't understand Tacitus either. Not surprising actually when two admittedly fluent non-native English speakers chat together, even then, something's bound to get "lost in translation":-)

Tacitus is saying something totally different. He's not "anti-freedom, he's pro-responsibility!!
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
21 May 2018 #846
@cms neuf

It doesn't matter its the rates that count. Is a murder by knife somehow less important than a murder by gun? Of course im comparing total murder rates to gun ownership rates.

Your statement about six sigma and s.d. are incorrect. Six sigma has nothing to do with statistics aside from the name (Six standard deviations, Greek sigma is the symbol used for s.d.) and the use of it as a benchmark. Six sigma is an operations management idea especially used in manufacturing to reduce waste, defects, etc and hence costs. Six sigma usually refers to defects meaning 99.999966%, or whatever the number, of items will not be defective. Six sigma and gun control have nothing to do with each other, other than perhaps ruger or colt implementing six sigma so that only 3.4 guns out of a million are defective.

Second, that is not what standard deviation means and your example is incorrect. S.d. has nothing to do with fractions or ratios i.e. 1 out of 35. In your example, the mean or average of the 35 nations would be zero s.d. In a normal distribution. The nation's would be plotted and s.d. shows how close the sample/population is to the mean. Each side of the mean is assigned an s.d. negative 1 2 and 3 s.d to the left and positive 1, 2 and 3 s.d to the right. In a normal diatribution, 99% of the countries would fall within 3 s.d. and I believe irs 75% for within 1 sd

Second gun laws dont work like that. No, a person in Illinois could not drive to Milwaukee just like that and purchase a gun. Even private sellers ask for ID and if they see an illinois id theyd be breaking the law by selling it to you.

Now that you mention it wisconsin and Indiana have higher rates of gun ownership yet illinois especially chicago has waaay more shootings.

No you don't have to worry about school shootings or shootings in general in poland. The reason why is bc it's a different culture. Even polish criminals and gang members dont pick up a gun to settle a dispute right away. They fight and theyre not scared to get their asses whooped. But in The us its different none of the young men fight anymore. They go straight for the gun. It doesn't mean a pole cant acquire a firearm from ukraine ir the balkans ans bring it back or even make one if they're that willing to kill people or theyll find another means altogether like bombs trucks etc as many muslims did.

France doesnt allow fully auto ak47s to be purchased by the public, yet thay didnt stop a few crazy people from killing over 100 mainly with ak47s. Wasnt frances gun control suppose to prevent thay from happening? Well it failed...
cms neuf 1 | 1,852
21 May 2018 #847
Of course you can use standard deviation is to refer to fractional outcomes - you could for example work out the standard deviation In the result of 10 consecutive coin tosses. In fact why don't you google standard deviation of 10 consecutive coin tosses.

So think of this as a 35 sided coin Which in 30 flips always lands with the American eagle face up - not sure where that is, could be a coincidence or could be because of the high number of gun toting morons in the US.

The origin of the word six Sigma before it became a business meme is that it shows a highly unusual result - and people like Toyota or whoever try and have their errors as highly unusual.

Asked for gun laws neighbouring states - is it conceivable to you that a criminal from Chicago might borrow a gun from one in Milwaukee ?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
21 May 2018 #848
No a criminal wouldnt 'borrow' a gun from Milwaukee because it'd be a waste of time and gas money. Anyone can go to the south or west side and buy a gun within a few minutes. It was like that before the gun ban, and its still like that now.

In fact, there were far more murders and shootings in the 90s in Chicago during the gun ban than once the gun ban was lifted.

In fact, in America in general, gun ownership has been increasing while violent crime like shootings and murders have decreased
Chemikiem 7 | 2,496
24 May 2018 #849
It is impossible to prevent the bad guys from getting hold of guns in any country regardless of the gun law period.

Not true. Trying to get hold of a gun in Poland would be extremely difficult, due to its strict gun laws. Getting hold of a gun in the US is as easy as buying a beer simply because they are legal.

I didn't or wouldn't gun innocent people down, so why you put this at my doorstep?

I wasn't suggesting that you would, I was simply saying that people should have the right to be able to walk around freely without the risk of being shot at. Kids shouldn't have to worry whether their school will be targeted by gunmen, and the suggestion that teachers should be armed and trained to deal with shooters is simply insane.

the deeds of some insane or criminal people.

Over 13,000 people are the victims of gun homicide in the US every year. Somehow I don't think that all those gunmen are mentally ill or gang members, although I'm sure plenty will argue against that so that those deaths can somehow be justified.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
24 May 2018 #850
Actually, aside from the psychological test and requirements to take part in shooting competitions for the 'sports license,' the gun laws are pretty similar. And actually the requirements for a full auto are less strict in Poland than US as the target shooting license allows you to obtain them AND concealed carry without further tests or certifications. In the US, to do that you would first need a FOID card just to own a weapon, concealed carry to carry the weapon, then ATF permit which costs thousands and is extremely hard to get for full autos.

'Legal' does not mean anyone can own them and if you buy any semi auto handgun, rifle, etc 'legally' you have to pass FBI checks. One liberal reporter thought he knew as much as you do about US gun laws and that it would be a piece of cake to obtain a handgun, well lo and behold he wasn't able to due to an old conviction for battering his wife years back... If you want to buy an illegal gun, yes it's quite easy as you can drive to a number of bad neighborhoods and purchase one. That's not much different than buying an illegal gun in the ghettos in Marseilles or Molenbeek or hand grenades in Malmo. In fact, it's quite easy to obtain an illegal weapon in Poland too - all one would need to do is purchase a bobby gun which requires no permits, IDs, etc. and a lil DIY and you got yourself a 9.

The guns that are easily obtained in the US are not legally acquired - they are ILLEGALLY acquired - big difference. Same as in Mexico, France, Belgium, Sweden, etc. France's and Belgium's strict gun laws didn't prevent a couple dudes from massacring a hundred people with AK47's, neither did UK's laws prevent London's murders from exceeding NYC's earlier this year, did they??

Somehow I don't think that all those gunmen are mentally ill or gang members

I can't speak for other cities, but in Chicago it's DEFINETELY mostly gang members and more specifically young black males - the statistics prove this. Its also limited to basically 3 areas that account for the vast majority of homicides - 80% of which aren't even solved.

I read this article earlier this morning - this is from a fellow Chicagoan - an immigrant like myself who never complained and put himself through school, and tempting as it may be for him isn't pulling the bullsh1t black card which appears to be so damn hard for the rest of black and brown young men and women today...

BTW Johnny this guy came here from Jamaica
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
25 May 2018 #851
Comparing Poland with the US while debating effective gun controls is pointless. We have 300,000,000 of them. Even if we desolved the NRA, closed every gun store, and shut down all gun manufacturers, we would still have 300,000,000 of them. The only outcome being cops getting shot and killed for their guns. Right now they are too cheap to bother.
TheWizard - | 236
25 May 2018 #852
300,000,000 guns! = LOST THE PLOT
cms neuf 1 | 1,852
25 May 2018 #853
That doesnt sound right - i thought carrying a weapon in public is only possible if you can prove you are in danger or are guarding cash delivery. I think you can only use an automatic at a shooting range.

If thats wrong let me know but i have never seen a member of the public carrying a gun here. I also never heard of any concealed carry
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
25 May 2018 #854
Are you talking about us or poland? In us it depends on the state. In some states only concealed carry is allowed while in others you can walk down the sidewalk with an ar15 slung around your back. You'll likely get hassled by the cops, gave guns pointed at you, told to lay in the dirty street as they chrck your credentials.

In Poland, if you have the gun license for target shooting (there's 3 different types of licenses/permits) technically you can walk around with a concealed automatic - but obviously you could only use it at a range. It's further divided out by category of rifle, shotgun, handgun so technically if you have the rifle one you can for example carry an ak47 in a case or the trunk of your car (depending on the legal definition of what would be considered concealed) in public but taking it out of its case in public is a no no
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
25 May 2018 #856
You can have concealed carry if you habe the appropriate license namely self defense and technically the target shooting one. Those are far more difficult to obtain and take much more time, especially the target shooting one than the regular hunting license which doesn't allow concealed carry. The vast majority are the hunting ones, I dont kmow the exact number but its pretty safe to assume that 5x to 10x (if not more) as many gun owners in poland have the hunting license than the self defense and target shooting one. Like the target shooting one actually appears to give you the most freedoms but you have to participate in a certain amount of Olympic style competitions for each class of gun every year. And with the self defense one you also have to go in to have your like mental status checked and all that every year or two.

And autos aren't discriminated, once you have the permit you can buy whatever you want
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
26 May 2018 #857
I find the idea of cc appealing but practically useless.

When a bad guy wants your walet and points a gun at you or sticks it to your ribs from behind, you are dead if you make a move to get yours. The only way I can justify having one on me is during a shootout with the first shot fired at somebody else.

Secondly, I would never take my gun and my wife to a place where I would be forced to actually use it. That is why you would never find me in a black 'hood.

I did take a cc course and even started the application process with the state police but I am not sure if I will complete it because of the above and because they want 150 bucks or so.
Ironside 50 | 10,935
26 May 2018 #858
Trying to get hold of a gun in Poland would be extremely difficult, due to its strict gun laws.

1.Not extremely difficult but somewhat difficult and more so to a law abiding citizen than to a criminal.
2. Difficult but no impossible. So what the point of restricting my personal freedom? To make you feel better? So you can live your life in a bubble that creates an illusion of safety?

people should have the right to be able to walk around freely without the risk of being shot at.

You're a victim of the mass media - they put a fear into people for no reason. There is nothing rational about the way you think about guns, safety and rights.

Those are just illusions that don't reflect reality.

Over 13,000 people are the victims of gun homicide

So what? It just a number, somehow you're sure that because A GUN had been involved those victims died needlessly. By banning guns those deaths could be avoided. It is not a rational but I guess there is no arguing with magical thinking.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
26 May 2018 #859
Over 13,000 people are the victims of gun homicide in the US every year.

It's better to use murder rates.

US - 5 per 100,000 per year.

Canada - 1.6

Vermont - 1.2

New Hampshire - 1.0

Here is the problem. The US allowes all kinds of Latino garbage in. One third of El Salvador lives here already. On top of that, we get the very worst crap from El Salvador - like MS-13. El Salvador murder rate is about 100. The crap that "immigrates" here is worse than that as these are mostly men 15 to 35. Other Latino hellholes are better with their murder rates being 30 to 60 times higher than in New Hampshire.

The point is that if you dropped all that Latino scum on Warsaw, Warsaw would be a different city and any claim that Poland a very violent place would be pure nonsense.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
27 May 2018 #860
Chicago has a huge Latino population yet its not them driving up the murder rate its blacks. Over 80% of homicides are committed by blacks - and most victims are black too...

Detailed stats on shootings and murders in chicago

Sun's out, guns out
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
27 May 2018 #861
Chicago has a huge Latino population yet its not them driving up the murder rate its blacks

Eeasy. The FBI crime stats conveniently lump whites and hispanics when listing perps. So, it's primarily whites and blacks.

Things change dramatically when this same corrupt FBI discovers hispanics to show who the victims are by race. Then, all of a sudden, those poor hispanics show up as a separate race next to whites and blacks. Nice trick.

Remember Zimmerman? A Latino from Peru, who shot a pos black thug, was instantly declared to be white.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,496
28 May 2018 #862
There is nothing rational about the way you think about guns, safety and rights.

Because I don't agree with your views? Plenty of people think just like me Iron. And no, I am not a victim of mass media. I look at the CDC and FBI crime stats regarding guns, or do you think those are all invented? Over 38,000 gun deaths a year. What about those school shootings, are they products of my imagination?

In my opinion most rational people have had enough of the US gun culture. How irrational must your thinking be to persist with the right to bear arms when kids are being killed in schools on a regular basis?

Iron, you really do have my thinking wrong. I am sure that if I stay with family in the US, then I would have a great time and wouldn't give a second thought to guns. I am purely against people being killed needlessly when there is no actual real need for anyone to have a gun.

America is a first world country with the levels of violence of some developing/third world ones. The US government is ignoring all the underlying problems that have lead to this situation in the first place.

I'm also tired of hearing that the gun problems are in the cities amonst gang members. I'm not saying that there aren't problems but the highest levels of gun homicides are in the southern states. 2016 CDC and FBI data ( no data available for last year) shows the highest top 10 states for gun homicides are:

New Mexico
South Carolina

Anyway, I've had enough of debating this now. All you gun supporters can shed a few more crocodile tears and light a few candles for the next victims of a mass shooting, because crocodile tears is all they are if you can condone all these deaths. And then suggest that Poland needs guns too. WTF. Really.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,940
28 May 2018 #863
as it may be for him isn't pulling the bullsh1t black card which appears to be so damn hard for the rest of black and brown young men and women today...

so ONE guy is 'not playing the bullsh!t black card' but all the others are? RAtional . When are you going to learn to argue? lol.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
28 May 2018 #864

You're data is waaay off... everyone knows chicago holds the number 1 spot for murders... even cities with 3x the population like nyc and la dont come close

I will give it to you though. I do wish I didn't have to walk around strapped all the time. It's uncomfortable and keeping track of keys phone wallet is easier than keys phone wallet 380. Plus all the right pockets on my pants are stretched and faded out. But i don't have another choice. You bring down the murder rate and bring all the carjacking, home invasions and all the other bs ill be the first to throw all my weapons in the river. Till then I'll stay strapped because id much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. And if for some reason I lost my permits and guns id make my girlfriend always keep one in her purse.

The gun laws for legal owners are not all that different than polands. Concealed carry is easier in the U.S. while getting an automatic is a lot easier in poland. The people who are committing the majority of those 38k shootings a year arent legal gun owners, theyre criminals who purchase guns illegally - same as in Europe. Did gun laws or gun control stop london from having more murders than nyc this year? Did they step the Paris massacre? Hbout Charlie Hebdo and all the other shootings nor to mention overall murders?

When are you going to learn to argue? lol

You don't have to worry about my 'arguing skills.' I've talked my way out of situations plenty of times. And theyve made me a lot of money.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
28 May 2018 #865
I am purely against people being killed needlessly when there is no actual real need for anyone to have a gun.

So am I and that is why I strongly advise you not to break into my place at 2 a.m.

You see, I am a very nice and loving person, but if you do this, you will not leave alive. Strangely, I would never hurt a cat or a dog.

That is why I have my buddy Beretta right next to me when I am asleep. Loaded with 15. I didn't bother to put #16 in the chamber because that would not be safe.
Ironside 50 | 10,935
28 May 2018 #866
Because I don't agree with your views?

No, because you're not rational in your thinking or consistent.

I look at the CDC and FBI crime stats regarding guns,

Exactly, the point is you don't understand those stats - that is clear. (or don't want to understand them, that possible).

You consider yourself to be a liberal. AM I right? After all you're for abortion, gay marriage and so forth. So if someone want to own a gun - whay there is a big no no? It is not rational nor consistent. Women should have a right to do what they want even if that include to kill defenseless children if that suit them, and some law abiding citizen is not allowed do do he want with his money and purchase a gun. I don't understand it.

Not because I hold a different opinion but because it doesn't make sense.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
28 May 2018 #867
Women should have a right to do what they want

Did you notice how anti-gun women often hold guns when asked? With two fingers, by the barrel, and as far away as they can, like they would a dead rat.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,940
28 May 2018 #868
You don't have to worry about my 'arguing skills.

no, you do...:) big time.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,309
28 May 2018 #869
To the guns-are-evil members:

How come nobody ever attacks police stations?

If you are lost and unable to answer: Because everybody is packing there, there are no trials or appeals, the penalty is death, and the execution is immediate.

I mentioned the last one to suggest that death penalty works and is a deterrent.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
28 May 2018 #870
.... thats very 'I know you are but what am i'.. ill take my chances...

And my freedom to pack a 380 in my pocket = )

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