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Polish visa expert? Japanes moving to Poland to study Polish.


OBAKA
31 Jul 2012  #1
Hello guys :)
I'm Japanese planing on moving to Poland to study Polish. I've been doing numerous research on Polish immigration and struggling to find out proper info. I contacted Polish consulate (Los Angeles, CA, USA. I live in LA) but they were so rude and didn't really get what i wanted to know.

Anyways, I know I need to obtain Polish D-visa to enter Poland and study. What's making me so perplexed is "Karta Pobytu". What the heck is this?

I know it's for those who'd like to stay longer than the period of visa. But what the heck again it takes at least 2 or 3 months and at most 4 or 5 months to get it??

Polish D-visa for study lasts 6 months guys!

Anyways here's what i wanna ask.
Should I apply for Karta Pobytu as soon as I land Poland? Is it even possible?
What are proper requirements? (I found what I need to apply but people say different thing and I'm so confused)
If I grain Karta Pobytu, I won't need to renew my D-visa, is it correct?
Karta Pobytu is renewable, is it correct?
Is it possible to apply for work permit inside Poland?
What do i have to do when I arrive Poland?

I'll be very happy if you guys answer my questions :)
It is freaking tiring, arduous and laborious to get a visa but I don't mind. Cuz I really wanna move to Poland :)

Thank you so much in advance!
grubas 12 | 1,392
31 Jul 2012  #2
en.poland.gov.pl/Permissions,7250.html
You got to change your attitude man.It is not like anybody can go to the US or Japan and get residence permit without a valid reason and some bureacratic hustle.Rules in Poland seem to be pretty lax compared to US (don't know about Japan).
Mzeex - | 2
1 Aug 2012  #3
I found this blog post about the Karta Pobytu, might explain for you somehow

britishinpoland.com/blog/2008/03/5-year-registration-karta-pobytu/

Basically it's a "card of stay" that allows you to register for a 5 years period. You can only apply for it after staying in Poland for 3 months, with local registration.
WatWat 3 | 43
1 Aug 2012  #4
Are you sure you need a visa and not a permit? While most of us use those words interchangably, they are actually two different things (and for some reason when you ask most people immigration questions, they never ask, "Did you mean a permit instead of a visa?)

The Karta Pobytu is the residence permit. If you do need a visa, you will also need this in addition. I don't know how this works in Poland, but generally, you have to get a residence permit before a visa.

I'd honestly be surprised you need a visa since you don't need a visa to enter Schengen. Poland does have some exceptions to the Schengen agreement (previous treaties and all that). But as a Japanese citizen, you have the right to visa free travel in Schengen for 90 days every six months.

Oh, and I found that the best source of info was my own embassy in Poland. There were several things they made me aware of that the Polish Embassy abroad didn't. Get a Skype World subscription or an international calling card and give them a call. If your embassy works at least as well as mine, then it would be well worth your money and time Also, the Japanese embassy in the US won't be the same resource. They're experts at helping Japanese citizens in the US, and not in Poland.
OP OBAKA
1 Aug 2012  #5
Hey grubas good to see you again :)
What do you mean I gotta change my attitude my friend?? I can't relax cuz more I do research on Polish immigration, more I get puzzled lol.. I think Polish immigration is pretty harsh (or maybe I'm just ignorant). Thank you for the link. I just checked that out although the information is kinda what I read on other sites. BECAUSE I'm Japanese, I don't know anything about immigration rules in Japan. Btw, how did you legalize your stay in Poland grubas? If you don't mind, please tell me :)

To Mzeex
Thank you for your reply :) I've found the blog before and read. It's informative but doesn't really help me since the situation is different. I don't think it'll be a 5-year permit for me. I'm talking about a temporary residence card that lasts up to 2 years and can be renewed every subsequent 2 years. I'm not getting married with a Polish citizen (not yet ;))

To WatWat
Thank you for response :) I don't need a tourist visa to stay up to 3 months in Poland since I'm a Japanese citizen. But I DO need a visa (Long-term visa, D-visa, student visa, study visa whatever it's called) if I plan to stay in Poland more than 3 months. And I know I have to obtain a visa before entering Poland. I plan to stay in Poland (I might settle in Poland for rest of my life) as long as possible. I do not want to stay in Poland illegally and get deported. I love Poland. I love Polish culture and mostly I love Polish vodka haha it's kinda joke cuz I don't drink a lot ;)

Let me break down my question for you guys cuz I've gained some new info but still I'm in fluster about relationship between visa and residence permit card (for student). Here's my question.

Is it possible to stay in Poland with a valid passport and a residence permit card even though my visa is invalid?
For example I have a 6-month visa for my study and also have a residence permit card which lasts up to 2 years. Now, my 6-month visa expires but I still have a valid residence card. Do I have to renew my VISA in this situation?

Relationship between visa (long term) and residence permit card is the point.
WatWat 3 | 43
1 Aug 2012  #6
Then Japan must have different regulations than Americans in Poland. Americans don't need a visa in any Schengen country ever (not to say Americans don't need permits, they certainly do if they want to stay over 90 days). I can't speak to Poland's immigration regs specifically, but I do know Schengen rules quite thoroughly, and this would be true for you in any country that followed Schengen regulations precisely . I don't know how closely Poland adheres to those rules, they might have special regulations for Japanese citizens.

I know Poland has a preexisting treaty with the US, which means that even without a residence permit, I can leave and enter the country every 90 days without problems (but this isn't true for Schengen as a whole. Which raises interesting questions when you've been in Poland past the 90 days). I just have to get that little piece of paper every 90 days at the county offices.

Again, your embassy in Poland is going to be the most knowledgable on this. The questions you're asking are going far beyond what the average person's understanding of immigration law is. For someone to answer you accurately, they'd need to either have first hand experience as a Japanese person living in Poland or they'd have to be very thoroughly versed in immigration law (and still probably have to research the answer)

I know Norway's immigration regs backwards and forwards, and from that, have a pretty good understanding of Schengen and EU regs since Norway follows them to the letter (and I know that Poland, like many EU countries. doesn't). But beyond that, I can only speak to my personal adventures in Polish immigration, which doesn't help you very much since you don't have a US passport.

All I can say is that with a Polish residence card, you will legally be in Schengen for the duration the card is valid regardless of how Poland feels about it.
grubas 12 | 1,392
1 Aug 2012  #7
Thank you for the link. I just checked that out although the information is kinda what I read on other sites.

No problem.This is the official government website.

Btw, how did you legalize your stay in Poland grubas?

I didn't have to.I am Polish.

What do you mean I gotta change my attitude my friend??

I didn't like this:

It is freaking tiring, arduous and laborious to get a visa

It took me some time,money and effort to become permanent resident of the US and it wasn't a walk in the park either.What I am saying is that I didn't expect USCIS to hand me PR card just because I am Mr. [insert name] and I fancy living in the US.I read requirements for becoming resident in Poland and they seem to be pretty lax when compared to US.Could be that I had misunderstood you though.
WatWat 3 | 43
1 Aug 2012  #8
I also wanted to add (but was too slow on my edit) that since you don't need a Schengen visa, you won't be able to obtain one. So if that's where you're hitting the brick wall, that's why.

But really, I find it odd that you would need one. I know two people that did need a visa to enter Schengen (one from Pakistan and one from India). They were treated in accordanance with Schengen rules, meaning, they just needed to get an entry visa (in their case), and their work permit covered them for the duration of their stay. Countries can be wierd with immigration though,anything is possible. But logically, it makes no sense that people from those categories of countries wouldn't need something you do.

Edit: Try googling Ambasada Japonii w Polsce. I can't post a direct link since the forums won't let me.

The info you need is going to be in Japanese, so you can find what you need better than I. Just email the right person if you have questions or can't find what you're looking for.

Grubas: I do understand his frustration. Immigration is complicated and frustrating even if the country has streamlined immigration regs and an easy to understand immigration website, and Poland has neither. The only reason I understand Norwegian immigration, Schengen and EU regs is because my best friend worked as an immigration lawyer for many years and I'm a complete legal geek. And I've even seen him get frustrated at it from time to time, even though he practices in a country with a very streamlined immigration system.
grubas 12 | 1,392
1 Aug 2012  #9
You won't need a visa once granted residency.

All I can say is that with a Polish residence card, you will legally be in Schengen for the duration the card is valid regardless of how Poland feels about it.

Not true.Residency in Poland does not give right to live and work in other Schengen countries.

I also wanted to add (but was too slow on my edit) that since you don't need a Schengen visa, you won't be able to obtain one.

He (and you) does not need a visa if he is coming here as a tourist but if he wants to work or study he needs to obtain a visa.
WatWat 3 | 43
1 Aug 2012  #10
Not true.Residency in Poland does not give right to live and work in other Schengen countries.

*I didn't say work and reside. I said he'd be legally in Schengen (as opposed to me, who for most of this year was of questionable status in Schengen and perfectly legal in Poland). In other words, he can travel about freely and fly out of Schengen from any other country and not incur an expulsion.

No, I need a residence permit, and I suspect that's all he needs too. That is *not* a visa which was my original point. No, in no case do I, and at least most countries that don't need a visa to travel to Schengen, need a visa under any circumstances. We do, however, need a permit to stay past the 90 days.
OP OBAKA
1 Aug 2012  #11
To WatWat
Check Schengen Area on Wikipedia. You can see a picture that shows which countries are not required a visa to enter Schengen states :)

To grubas
Haha okay my friend I shouldn't of said tiring, arduous and laborious. Cuz I know it's way more tiring, arduous and laborious to get a US green card. It depends on how to apply though. I didn't know you're Polish and you took endless effort to grab your US green card. If I knew it, I wouldn't even mention it's tiring, arduous and laborious to get a Polish visa :)

Thank you guys for reply! :)
Hope somebody else will answer my question.

Update
Thanks for update guys! :)

To WatWat
I tried the site but they didn't have what i wanted to know.

To grubas
Oh that's good to know!! So I won't have to renew my visa if I have a residence permit card. But wait, it's a "temporary" residence permit card. I'm not talking about permanent residence card (of course someday I'd like to have).
WatWat 3 | 43
1 Aug 2012  #12
Check Schengen Area on Wikipedia. You can see a picture that shows which countries are not required a visa to enter Schengen states :)

Yes, I know what the Schengen states are. All immigration rules are not the same for those states including who needs a visa and who doesn't (and what that visa entitles you to do in other Schengen states).

It doesn't surprise me that the website doesn't have info, that's why I also said you should call or email them. Immigration law is extremely complicated and Poland has one of the more difficult immigration systems to understand.

Look, here's why you need someone there. To understand immigration to a country in either the EU or Schengen (or both) you need to know the following:

-The EU, Schengen and that country's immigration rules. How that country applies the EU and Schengen rules (this does vary).
-Treaties that preceed the Schengen and/or EU agreement and are still valid.
-The immigration guidelines (which, if published at all, are generally very difficult to find).
-If it's something that falls under the embassy's purvue, the ebassies guidelines.
-And really, you need to understand the theory behind all of it to really have a good grasp of it.
And you have to be current on all of that. Those things change all the time. While people working in immigration get notification months or sometimes years before immigration laws/guidelines/ect change, the average person has to seek out these changes on their own. This is also why even people who work in immigration are wrong on occasion.

Unless you get lucky and run across a Polish immigration lawyer on a forum, a Japanese citizen who's fairly recently done what you're getting ready to do, or someone who's worked in the Japanese embassy in Poland, you're only getting a best guess. I've literally stood in an office with my Polish lawyer while he explained to the person handling my case what the laws were and for my previous permit

To give you a somewhat relevant example, some students in some Schengen countries can and do obtain a Schengen D type visa. That's because they do need it since that country doesn't have another form of permit to cover those cases. So, in France (IIRC) you'd need one and thus be able to obtain one. In Norway, since they have their own permits for students, you don't need one and thus can't obtain one. As an American in Poland, since there are other permits that cover me, I don't need one and thus can't get one. But, I don't know if that's because of the treaty or how Poland works in general for people that don't need a visa to enter. So my experience might be totally irrelevant.

Trusting random people on the internet to provide you with information is a very bad idea. That's the other reason I rarely comment on Polish immigration. With Norway, certain guidelines aside, I can provide links that back up everything. In Poland, I've gotten different answers from the same office.

If you don't believe me on the fact that Schengen rules are applies differently in different countries, look at the first sentence of imihelp.com

"Depending on the applicant's citizenship and/or residency or a few other rules, a Schengen visa may either be or not be required by all Schengen countries or some Schengen countries"

To back that up by the regulation itself (again, because of forum rules, can't link directly):

from COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001

(8)In specific cases where special visa rules are warranted, Member
States may exempt certain categories of persons from the visa
requirement or impose it on them in accordance with public
international law or custom.

And, before you can dig into that lovely document, you need to start with Decision 1999/435/EC of 20 May 1999.

And that is why you have to be so specific when it comes to immigration EVEN to a Schengen country.
OP OBAKA
2 Aug 2012  #13
To WatWat
Thank you for your enthusiasm. I really appreciate that :)
I agree with you. Immigration law is changing everyday regardless of countries. I'll be extra careful with that cuz like I said I don't want to get deported when I'm Poland.

Trusting random people on the internet to provide you with information is a very bad idea. That's the other reason I rarely comment on Polish immigration. With Norway, certain guidelines aside, I can provide links that back up everything. In Poland, I've gotten different answers from the same office.

I visited official Polish consulate site many times. I also visited several web sites that tell about Polish immigration. But none of them had answer to my question. Therefore, I took advantage of people on PolishForums.com. Because I figured there were people who might have the same question as mine. I wouldn't care even if there were people who don't have answer to my question.

You're one of those random people on the internet too. This is the site where people share any information about Poland. It genuinely depends on oneself to believe what people share on the internet.

I didn't mean to bring up a topic about Schengen states and its rules. Pardon my ignorance. I just wanted to get a hang on Polish immigration system.

Thanks for understanding.
WatWat 3 | 43
2 Aug 2012  #14
Oh no, that applies to me too (although if you really want to see my docs, I can take photos with the vital info anonymised and show that I've legally been in Schengen for over 4 years with without ever having to apply for a visa, just permits :P), which is why I am extremely careful to preface everything I can't source. That's also why my only concrete advice to you has been to contact (not just read the website) of the Japanese embassy in Poland. My point is to verify everything. Granted, I might be a bit paranoid because my friend, the immigration lawyer, specifically works with appeals of expulsion cases. You would not believe the amount of people who got into horrible positions because they trusted people they shouldn't have to give them info (sometimes even 3rd party immigration agencies, often a family member). If you pour through any decent amount of court cases dealing with this, you can see it for yourself. I don't think people intentionally mislead people all that often, but immigration is complicated.

The reason I went in depth about the application of Schengen rules (not the treaty itself, since there's no disagreement on that) was because it seemed that the common misunderstanding that Schengen rules apply universally to all Schengen countries all the time was cropping up. I got that impression since we were heading down the Schengen D Visa path, which is one of those areas in particular where one sees some level of variance from country to country.

I offered up the suggestion of contacting your embassy in Poland because they will have the most up to date info, where the Polish consulate in the US might not be. Remember, they primarily deal with American citizens seeking permits for Poland. Emails are easy to send and generally responded to quickly. Phone calls are a bit more of a hassle, but well worth it.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
2 Aug 2012  #15
I know Poland has a preexisting treaty with the US, which means that even without a residence permit, I can leave and enter the country every 90 days without problems.

That's not true. Americans must abide to the 90/180 rule regardless. The piece of paper you're talking about is not a valid replacement for a residence card in Poland. It's a common myth among Americans that they can do this, but it simply isn't truth. Incidentally, they will issue a zameldowanie regardless of your actual residency status, as it's a piece of paper that confirms your address in Poland - not a paper that confirms your legal stay.

Should I apply for Karta Pobytu as soon as I land Poland? Is it even possible?

Yes. You'll be granted a 90 day visa-free period upon arrival, and with this, you need to go and apply for a Karta Pobytu. If you run out of "days" on the 90 day tourist stamp, they'll grant you extra days until a decision is made.

(as opposed to me, who for most of this year was of questionable status in Schengen and perfectly legal in Poland).

I assure you that if you didn't have a Karta Pobytu after 90 days in Poland, you were illegally in Poland - unless you had the permission from the relevant office to stay more than 90 days while they made a decision.
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #16
Incidentally, they will issue a zameldowanie regardless of your actual residency status, as it's a piece of paper that confirms your address in Poland - not a paper that confirms your legal stay.

True!I have seen couple of my friends reprimanded on airport by the border control and some who were loud mouths fined 450 euros,if they didnt have it they were told not to come back or to come back with the money pay at any border control of any country as it was being fed in the SIS( schengen information system) computer,other than that I have not seen an American being deported or else.But again by law one cant stay over 90 days(mind you 90 days not 3 months as some has that myth as 3 months are 32 days sometimes also)

Infact immigration is very easy if you have proper paper work and guidance what is needed,in Poland I have seen immigration being a somewhat flexible also..depending on the persons attitude and nature.
Sebas 1 | 38
2 Aug 2012  #17
You can also go out of the schengen zone for a day or an hour and come back to Poland to get another 90 days. I was told of this little loop hole by the polish consulate in Montreal when i first came to Poland. For ex. go to the UK for a weekend and come back to Poland. It works I've done it 3 times before getting my Karta Pobytu.
grubas 12 | 1,392
2 Aug 2012  #18
OMG,not this again.No,you cannot do it!Read 90/180 days rule again.
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #19
It works I've done it 3 times before getting my Karta Pobytu.

Well! it all depends on the border guard,as Poland guards enforce it at there will and do discriminate if you are of Polish origin,or your attitude or whatever....no gurantees as I have seen both sides where people are fined and where people are let to slide through..anyway legal is 90/180 rule but germany,france,UK,and some other countries do enforce it.
Sebas 1 | 38
2 Aug 2012  #20
Then why was i granted entrance in Poland again mate... explain that one
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #21
Sebas
Read up!Polish guard was in good mood or you were polite or whatever AND/OR he maybe GAY!:)
Sebas 1 | 38
2 Aug 2012  #22
Ok maybe because I'm from Canada and as I enter the UK I get on the commonwealth laws.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
2 Aug 2012  #23
What commonwealth laws? You have no right of residence in the UK.

Then why was i granted entrance in Poland again mate... explain that one

Because you were lucky that they didn't scrutinise your passport thoroughly at the border.

Just ask the numerous Americans caught in Poland each year what they think about the Schengen 90/180 day laws.
Sebas 1 | 38
2 Aug 2012  #24
listen little miss no it all. I was at the boarder and they looked at my passport for a good 20 minutes did some calls and let me through... and i'M NOT AN AMERICAN.

Is your country in the commonwealth....?

They are some agreements within the commonwealth that gives special rights.

For ex. A Canadian can stay 6 months without a visa.

And for a Canadian you can stay only 3 months in Europe without visa.

anyway I'm not going to argue with someone that knows everything that would be a waste of time.

cheers :)
RevokeNice 15 | 1,860
2 Aug 2012  #25
Just ask the numerous Americans caught in Poland each year what they think about the Schengen 90/180 day laws.

The same with EU citizens going the opposite way.
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #26
anyway I'm not going to argue with someone that knows everything that would be a waste of time.

I agree sebas,they dont know crap about north americans,like they were arguing before with me that to get karta pobute one dont have to register marriage or birth certificate in poland,O well what do you expect!:)I have seen financee of my friend deported back to Uk and not allowed to come back to the USA for 5 years.
Sebas 1 | 38
2 Aug 2012  #27
LOL classic
MoOli 9 | 484
2 Aug 2012  #28
The same with EU citizens going the opposite way.

So far I have never heard or seen any American deported until unless he is a criminal to the USA,Yes they are fines 450 euros and if they dont have money are told not to come back before 180 days and with the money or else(I dont know or heard what ever happend to idiots who did or didnt bring 450 euros with them) but I have seen couple of first hand cases of europeans being deported,
RevokeNice 15 | 1,860
2 Aug 2012  #29
Yep. And they don't just get fined. They got lobbed into county jail, shackled and treated like the rest of the prison population. Sometimes for weeks at a time. Which is fine.

But we should reciprocate and take them to task over it. A couple of thousand yanks locked up in European jails would quickly change the Americans stance on EU citizens relocating to America. Since the 70s, 90% of all migrants to the US have been from developing nations(3rd world!)

An eye for an eye.

Personally, Id have no problem extending free movement of labour to Canada, American and Australia. If they reciprocated. It would even itself out.
Harry
2 Aug 2012  #30
Then why was i granted entrance in Poland again mate... explain that one

You were lucky. Simple as that. Legally they should have refused you entry if you had been in Poland for more than 90 days in the past 180 days.

they were arguing before with me that to get karta pobute one dont have to register marriage or birth certificate in poland

From memory you were provided with links to the list of documents on the Urzad do Spraw Cudzoziemcow website and you still tried to claim that you know better than the foreigners office what documents they require.

As for Americans being deported, at least one American poster here has been deported.


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