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Sentence usage/placements of unstressed vs stressed pronouns Się/Siebie, Mi/Mię, Cię/Ci, Go/Jego, Mu/Jemu,


ForumUser
8 Mar 2020 #1
Please everyone, what are some general guidelines for unstressed vs. stressed pronouns Się/Siebie, Mi/Mię, Cię/Ci, Go/Jego, Mu/Jemu etc, when it comes to sentence usage/placements? (I haven't seen use of the pronoun "Mię", but I do know it's an unstressed declension of first-person singular. My biggest difficulty is trying to figure out when to use unstressed pronouns in sentences that are longer than a basic "Subject + Verb + Object"-type sentence) So far, I only know that the pronoun "Się" (and other unstressed pronouns) cannot be used in first-word position in sentences, and also to try not to place "Się" in last-word position in sentences...and that (I think?) reflexive infinitives use only "Się" and not "Siebie". I've noticed that in some "Się" sentences, "Się" isn't even immediately before/after a participle (verb tense). As to Polish word stress in general, I do know that individual Polish words are stressed on 2nd-last syllable - exceptions being certain words derived from foreign languages, and participles with certain verb-tense suffixes. And as to stressed pronouns, are they used only for clarification/emphasis purposes? For instance (if these demonstration sentences are even grammatically correct) "I saw him, not you!!" = "Zobaczyłem jego, nie Cię!!" and "I thanked him, not you!!" = "Podziękowałem jemu, nie Ci!!". Or are there also other grammatical purposes for stressed pronouns? (I do know that the only stressed pronoun declensions that can also be used after prepositions are "Mnie", "Ciebie", and "Tobie", and "Siebie"...as well as "Mną", "Tobą", "Sobie", "Sobą" and all third-person singular & plural pronoun declensions beginning with "Ni-"). Please and thank you
mafketis 23 | 8,410
8 Mar 2020 #2
Please everyone

hint: learn to use paragraph breaks and use white space... no sane person wants to read through a big block of unbroken text...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,088
8 Mar 2020 #3
I haven't seen use of the pronoun "Mię", but I do know it's an unstressed declension of first-person singular.

No such pronoun in Polish.

Zobaczyłem jego, nie Cię!!

Zobaczyłem jego, a nie Ciebie.

Podziękowałem jemu, nie Ci!!

Podziękowałem jemu, a nie Tobie.
mafketis 23 | 8,410
8 Mar 2020 #4
No such pronoun in Polish.

Au contraire mon ami!

It's archaic and not used anymore but it existed.... and I think I've heard it a time or two in religious contexts (maybe from the Bible?)

sjp.pwn.pl/so/mie;4464715.html

biblijni.pl/modlitwy/105_modlitwa_za_rodzicow_5.html
OP ForumUser
8 Mar 2020 #5
No such pronoun in Polish

Apparently "Mię" is a dialectal pronoun, previously used as an unstressed genitive & accusative pronoun

Zobaczyłem jego, a nie Ciebie.

Podziękowałem jemu, a nie Tobie.

Are stressed pronouns after "Nie" only if it's an exclamatory sentence? Or only stressed pronouns after "Nie" at all times?
mafketis 23 | 8,410
9 Mar 2020 #6
This is a nice video explaining go, jego and niego. It's made by a teacher of Polish as a foreign language (from some of the vids she does I have the idea a lot of her students are Russian speakers).

youtube.com/watch?v=xgHGOy_Nrwk
Ziemowit 13 | 4,088
9 Mar 2020 #7
It's archaic and not used anymore but it existed....

Indeed, what I meant was:

No such pronoun in contemporary standard Polish.

But poet Jan Kochanowski (1530-1584) did use it:
Cieszy mię ten rym, Polak mądr po szkodzie
Lecz jeśli prawda i z tego nas zbodzie
Nową przypowieść Polak sobie kupi
że i przed szkodą i po szkodzie głupi

Lyzko 25 | 7,139
9 Mar 2020 #8
"Kocham Cie" I've seen side-by-side with "Kocham Ciebie". Same with "go" and "niego". It depends then on the register, I suppose.
mafketis 23 | 8,410
9 Mar 2020 #9
It depends then on the register

Look at the vid in #6.... she explains it very well.

go - normal unstressed
jego - stressed for whatever reason, especially in contrastive contexts
niego - after a preposition

kocham cię = normal "I love you"

Ciebie = stressed 'Kocham Ciebie' "I love _you_ (not my ex that you saw me having coffee with)!"
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
9 Mar 2020 #10
Very workable explanations.
OP ForumUser
9 Mar 2020 #11
Thank you everyone. The only thing I know (I haven't watched the youtube video as yet; I will be watching it shortly) is that the unstressed declensions are (I think?) mainly for objects preceded only by non-preposition verbs, specifically in basic non-clarification non-exclamatory types of sentence format such as:

"(optional adjective) Subject + (optional adverb) Verb + Object (unstressed declension)"-type sentences.

All stressed declensions (except "Jego" and "Jemu") are also used after prepositions. The only third-person singular & plural declensions used exclusively after prepositions are ones beginning with "Ni-" (Is it correct that instrumental and locative infinitives have only objects that are preceded by prepositions? As in, no direct objects?)

The only declensions that don't have stressed/unstressed counterparts are "Mną", "Tobą", "Sobie", and "Sobą" - all of which are also used after prepositions.

Uh oh, I just remembered the infinitive "Być" uses instrumental (sometimes nominative) declensions that don't have preceding prepositions
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
9 Mar 2020 #12
That's right!
Be careful though: On jest dobryM nauczycielEM, but, To jest pieknY obraz. In the second sentence, because of the article "to", the Nominative would be used. Cf. "The Night Watch" Rembrandt'a jest pieknyM obrazEM.
OP ForumUser
10 Mar 2020 #13
I noticed sometimes Polish sentences begin with pronouns that aren't subject of sentence, and other Polish sentences begin with prepositions. Is there a difference in meaning if a Polish sentence has correct declensions but isn't in "Subject + Verb + Object" format? Is there difference in meaning between "Widzę jego" ("I see him") and "Jego widzę"? Or between "Patrzę na niego?" ("I look at him") and "Na niego patrzę"?
mafketis 23 | 8,410
10 Mar 2020 #14
Is there difference in meaning between "Widzę jego" ("I see him") and "Jego widzę"?

In rough terms....

Widzę jego. "I see _him_"

Jego widzę "I _see_ him"

Polish word order is traditionally described as being more about theme and rheme than subject verb object

theme = older, known information

rheme = newer information

This is similar to topic and comment

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_and_comment

Modern usage is trending toward a stricter subject - verb - object order (subject to other constraints) especially in speech.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
10 Mar 2020 #15
Word order in Polish can also stress which has priority in the sentence.
OP ForumUser
11 Mar 2020 #16
What are some general guidelines for sentence usage/placements of unstressed vs. stressed pronouns Się vs. Siebie? So far, I only know that the pronoun "Się" (and few other unstressed pronouns) cannot be used in first-word position in sentences, and to also try not to place "Się" in last-word position in sentences...and that (I think?) reflexive infinitives use only "Się" and not "Siebie". I've also noticed that in some longer "Się" sentences, "Się" is neither immediately before nor immediately after a participle (verb tense), that it's generally placed anywhere between 2nd-word position to 2nd-last position in longer sentences
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
11 Mar 2020 #17
"Sie" is a pure reflexive pronoun in Polish. "Siebie" is at least for myself a little tougher to explain for elementary Polish learners first time out.

It corresponds roughly to "one another". Then again, a native speaker might well be able to elucidate better:-)

By the way, Polish often uses "sie", the reflexive, in ways quite different from English or other Germanic languages.
Examples: Jak sie masz? = How are you?, literally, "How have you yourself?", which makes no sense in translation,
or, "Jak sie mowi...." = How do you say [..such and such.... in.], word for word "How speaks oneself?", again, anathema
to either English or German speakers!
mafketis 23 | 8,410
11 Mar 2020 #18
also try not to place "Się" in last-word position in sentences..

In modern Polish that particular rule is frequently violated and I often hear unaccented się at the end of sentences.

My own idea is that there in the modern language there are at least two (maybe three) different się's that differ in distribution and potential for emphasis.

It's important to remember that often się has no inherent meaning but is used to make transitive verb roots intransitive

zmienić - to change (something) transitive verb with an object

zmienić się - to change (no object) "Zmieniłeś się" (you've changed)
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
11 Mar 2020 #19
Yep, makes sense.


Home / Language / Sentence usage/placements of unstressed vs stressed pronouns Się/Siebie, Mi/Mię, Cię/Ci, Go/Jego, Mu/Jemu,
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