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Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D


FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
1 Mar 2010 #571
Seanus wrote:

Dwie is considered the female marker, e.g kiełbasa (1), krzesła (1), kobieta

Because we're having this conversation, i'll correct it.

krzesla is the plural form of krzeslo, which is a neutral noun. hence, dwa krzesla.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2010 #572
Thanks for the correction, it was a mistake and not an error. Jedno krzesło of course. I need to take a deep breath before I post ;) ;) I've probably used it about a hundred times in class but there we go.

Much obliged!
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
1 Mar 2010 #573
no probs.

from one man to another, i'd like to ask you some questions about your Polish classes.

I've never taken an actual course, just studying on my own, conversation with my fiance/friends, language exchanges, constant reading, etc.....but never a structured course at a school.

what's it like? how are lessons structured? how large is your class? is it done differently than typical English classes?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2010 #574
Truth be told, I only really had a handful of classes back in 2005 where I got them for free. I was a teacher at a school and we learned the basics of gender agreement, time and counting. Just the fundamental stuff really. Classes were typically 5 or 6 teachers. I've taught so many methods in English that it would be hard for me to compare. There's a lot of listen&repeat which is good.

I learn through imitation and listening mainly. My wife has taught me a fair bit but in a casual way generally.

The key is knowing your learning style. You can benefit from sb who looks at things a bit differently, just like in chess. Magnus Carlsen will get ever stronger with Garry Kasparov coaching him.

I'd be happy to answer any more specific questions.
Varsovian 92 | 634
1 Mar 2010 #575
I can translate from Polish to English, but I can't speak it properly!!

I need lessons ... desperately.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2010 #576
You can pick up quite a few things here. I tend not to dish out advice unless I am really sure. There are quite a few bilingual people here.
Gregrog 4 | 100
1 Mar 2010 #577
dzis, przyjechali dwoch mezczyzn.

Correct form is as I wrote:
Dziś przyjechali dwaj mężczyźni.

or

Dziś przyjechało dwóch mężczyzn.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
1 Mar 2010 #578
That movie is set in outer spaces."

Not in everyday, mainstream usage it doesn't. Specialist vocabulary takes on different meanings and can generate new forms that aren't part of mainstream usage.

I never claimed the plural usage is mainstream. There are an estimated 900,000 word in the English language. A vast majority of them are not in mainstream use. They still exists as valid words. The same hold true for "cosmic spaces". Not your everyday concept, but it is in use.

"

If you go around speaking to non-specialists saying things like:

"That movie is set in outer spaces."or "That new telescope can see further out into the cosmoses than ever before."

People will understand you, but you'll sound weird and the great majority of native speakers (let's say 98% give or take a few points) won't produce those sequences naturally.

I wouldn't worry about people's reactions. In this day and age, in the so called civilized countries there are still people who do not understand why hands should be washed before meals, or what the value is.

It doesn't have a plural forum as I'm talking about Space and not a space. A space (1) of course can be pluralised to 2 spaces.

Kinda like God and gods? To some you cannot pluralize the word "god" as they are convinced there is only one. Point of view, philosophy and tradition are one thing, linguistic reality is another. There is a significant body of work where the term is used on a regular basis. Again, pluralized space in reference to cosmos is not your average household concept, but the concept exists and is very much alive.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2010 #579
Don't you get it Darek? I'll make it very simple for you. One word even, capitalisation. God is one, a single entity. There are false gods as alluded to in the Bible but you are confusing proper nouns and common nouns. No offence but that last argument sucked more than Ashlyn Gere did. I don't even need to be linguistically minded to refute that.

Space is just Space. Have you even seen Spaces or just spaces?
Lyzko
1 Mar 2010 #580
I think I came in somewhere around......."A person must be some sort of dumbell if they can't master Polish!:-)

He-he! What kind am I? Just the garden variety, I ASS u me. LOL

Back to the drawing board:

"Dzisiaj przyjechali dwaj mężczyzń.... (I will hazard a guess here that this is not collective counting at this point)

Dwóch stołów, dwa krzesła i dwie książki przyjechały (...because of the feminine, if inanimate, 'książki', correct??)
mafketis 23 | 8,612
2 Mar 2010 #581
I see a problem here in that people are trying to carry over the gender of the singular into the plural and Polish just doesn't work like that.

Basically if a language has both gender and number there are a few ways they may be distributed, in Polish different criteria apply for determining gender in the singular and plural.

In terms of government, adjective and verb agreement, Polish has four genders in the singular and two in the plural.

singular:
masc. animate
masc. inanimate
neuter
feminine

plural
masculine-personal
non-masculine-personal

The distinction in the plural is between noun phrases that include the following semantic features:

+human
+male
+adult
+plural

and those that don't.

That is if a noun phrase modified by an adjective or a noun phrase used as the subject of a verb contains all those features then it's masculine-personal (męskoosobowy) and if it doesn't, then it isn't. There are some borderline cases where different people disagree but that's the broad rule.

Slight complication: sometimes the genetive plural is substituted for the nominative but that's a question for a different post.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
2 Mar 2010 #582
Lyzko wrote:

Dwóch stołów

dwa stoly.

Lyzko wrote:

'książki', correct??

correct. dwie ksiazki.

shame you didn't respond Delphiandomine to yesterday's conversation. I see you posted several times on other threads.....but conveniently ignored this one. we're all so disappointed.

Nancy.

that's right. you're a Nancy. like the purple ice cream cone holding, flower print skirt wearing, pedicure/manicure kind.

Nancy.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Mar 2010 #583
Well, there is a difference between common perceptions and grammatical soundness. For example, I questioned the logic of 'nie ma przystanku' but it could also be 'nie ma przystanka'. In fact, some of the best minds say it should be with A at the end.
marqoz - | 195
4 Mar 2010 #584
In fact, some of the best minds say it should be with A at the end.

Why do they say nonsenses like that. Everybody knows, even child, that negation needs Genitive instead of Accusative. It's so natural!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Mar 2010 #585
OK, so how about 'idę do przystanka' and idę do przystanku'? Poles often don't know if it's u or a. Naturally it's u but it can be a according to advanced linguists.

Explain why women say poszłam and men have to say poszedłem, not poszłem?
jonni 16 | 2,485
4 Mar 2010 #586
'idę do

I'd say na rather than do.

poszedłem, not poszłem?

Poszłem is theoretically wrong, but so many people say it that it ought to be in the dictionary.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
4 Mar 2010 #587
Explain why women say poszłam and men have to say poszedłem, not poszłem?

Easy: ona poszła, on poszedł - ja poszłam (F), ja poszedłem (M)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Mar 2010 #588
Dochodzę do przystanka or przystanku. Idę na przystanek is better I'd say.

Why isn't it poszł? I know it's poszedł.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
4 Mar 2010 #589
Seanus wrote:

Explain why women say poszłam and men have to say poszedłem, not poszłem?

you also have wszedlem vs. weszlam, wyszedlem vs. wyszlam,etc.

"poszedlem" follows the pattern of maintaining the structure "szedl" in all forms.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Mar 2010 #590
I know but that logic is often neglected when I hear poszłem :(
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
4 Mar 2010 #591
sure, it's totally common, which is why it cracks me up when Poles or anyone else talk smack about American English and how "Americans don't speak correctly".

"OH, did you hear that?! He didn't use an adverb!".........na przyklad.

every country has people at different levels of speaking proficiency/literacy.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Mar 2010 #592
I'll echo that :)
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
4 Mar 2010 #593
is often neglected when I hear poszłem :(

I would say this incorrect form is restricted to children and to the very, very uneducated - on the other hand, "incorrect" forms are very often used for fun. Us people with a complicated language like to take liberties with it and push it around a bit sometimes just for the hell of it :-)
marqoz - | 195
4 Mar 2010 #594
Explain why women say poszłam and men have to say poszedłem, not poszłem?

It's quite simple. Our Past tense is originally a Past compound one formed of past participle and infinitive to be.

In Old Polish:
woman had to say: Ja poszъdła jeśmъ > Ja poszdła jeśm > Ja poszła jeśm > Ja poszłam

man: Ja poszъdłъ jeśmъ > Ja poszedł jeśm > Ja poszedłem
E in poszedła perished because it was in weak position (according to rule of the vocalization of even yers).
Next jeśm was just simplified and agglutinated to past participle. This rule works with other verbs also.

By the way there were also aoryst and imperfect but they died out in XIV centure. For Chist sake and good for foreigners. For example poszedłem was in aoryst: pojdziech
Olaf 6 | 956
4 Mar 2010 #595
Nothing changes the fact "poszłem" sounds terribly. Same is with introducing yourself starting from your last name: Kowalski Jan. It is still common amongst low-educated people and mainly by older generation (I percieve it as a post-effect of communistic regime where it was a standard, like citizen Kowalski Jan). But now, and for a quite long time, it is always the normal form: first name first.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,359
4 Mar 2010 #596
sure, it's totally common, which is why it cracks me up when Poles or anyone else talk smack about American English and how "Americans don't speak correctly".

The problem is that American English has simplified to the point where you have well and truly mutilated the language. How can it be in any way acceptable for educated people to mix up tenses without rhyme or reason?
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
4 Mar 2010 #597
Delphiandomine wrote:

The problem is that American English has simplified to the point where you have well and truly mutilated the language. How can it be in any way acceptable for educated people to mix up tenses without rhyme or reason?

give me a specific example.
jwojcie 2 | 763
4 Mar 2010 #598
Most common examples of 7th case:
"Ty h*ju!"

Gregrog, shame on you!! Absolutely crucial word in Polish and you've made an error!
It should be "Ty ch*ju!" ;-)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Mar 2010 #599
Ach, I had to correct my wife when she said huliganów instead of chuliganów. I felt bad doing it, though :(
FUZZYWICKETSFAN
5 Mar 2010 #600
I did that little experiment that fuzzywickets proposed.

I asked the smartest polish people I know, and I had 6 different answers,
and each person was claiming that others are wrong, just his version is good
and correct in polish!

pienci uszy
pienci uszow
pienci uszu

pienczioro uszu
pienczioro uszow
pienczioro uszy


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