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Busha and JaJa



boletus 30 | 1,367    
15 Oct 2012  #31

While we're at it - do you know of any sites that detail where the Poles came from that emigrated to the USA?

There are many such sites that I came across while helping some people here with their genealogy projects. But I have nothing handy right now and would have to collect the links. Some of the links can be found on this forum. My general feeling is that Poles emigrated from all part of former Poland: Galicia, Prussia, Silesia. Just one example:

Panna Maria (meaning Virgin Mary), Texas, is the oldest Polish settlement in the United States. Panna Maria was founded by Father Leopold Moczygemba and about 100 Silesian families from Pluznica, and surrounding villages of Silesia, Poland.

I think we had some thread about Texas Silesians. Here is the appropriate wiki article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Silesian

I think I was giving some advice here about immigration from Trójwieś: Istebna, Jaworzynka, Koniaków - Cieszyn County, Silesian Voivodship.

Just give me some time; I'll try to deal with your questions one at a time. I need some break now. :-)


Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Oct 2012  #32

The only difference is that "busia" appears only in several dialects across Poland and is not listed in any mainstream dictionary.

So it isn't Polish, as reflected by the fact that it is not contained in any dictionaries of Polish.

It is however listed in several dialectal dictionaries.

So it is listed in dialectal dictionaries but not in dictionaries of Polish. Why is that? Because the word is not Polish.

I recently asked my 85 year old ciocia from Silesia about this word. She tells me in all her years she has never heard this word at all.

Interesting, but not at all surprising.

The former Lower Silesian dialect

a) Yet again a voice from North America claims to know better than a Pole with 85 years' experience of living in Poland.
b) Silesian is not a dialect of Polish; it is a language.
c) The Wijewo dialect might use the word busia; however, Polish does not.

here is a jocular Kashubian text, where the word Busia is used.

Kashubian is not a dialect of Polish; it is a language.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,640    
16 Oct 2012  #33

My family and I have always used "babcia" thingie, and I have never heard about "busia" thing before I joined this forum,

Neither have I. Never heard 'busia' in my family, but I could immediately judge it as having been derived from the word "babusia", the latter being perfectly imaginable, though equally unusual for me.

Does this mean that the Polish word for "grandmother" [babcia - Ziemowit] is a relatively recent invention and possibly dates from after the mass emigration to the USA at the start of the II RP?

It is much likely, in my view, although we must push back the time of mass emigration to the US to the times before the start of the II RP (end of the 19th and the beginning od the 20th century). As far as I remember, my grandparents (GF born in 1907, GM born in 1912) who lived in the country (south-eastern Masovia) and whom I visited quite often in my chilhood for a summer holiday would often refer to a grandmother as "babka" rather than "babcia", even if I myself used to address my grandmother with the word "babciu" [vocative of "babcia"]. Also, recalling the Polish historical films whose language was to some extent "styled" to sound less contemporary, I have the impression that the caracters in them would use "babko" rather than "babciu" when addressing the grandmother. The same can probably be found in the literature of the 19th century (someone may perhaps browse several "big" titles, those of Władysław Reymont or Bolesław Prus spring to mind, in search for that). So, all in all, one may perhaps assume that this diminution of the word babka to the word babcia started to spread out after the First World War. A similar process, the diminution of 'babka' to 'babusia' may have taken place in some specific groups (e.g. peasants of some regions) even before that time.

On a side note, my grandparents frequently used names of family that have faded away since then or are extremely rare now. Both my GF and GM carefully differentiated between 'ciotka', 'wujenka' or 'stryjenka', for example. I never dared to grasp the difference between those three, as in the 1970s and 1980s it was really unusual to hear the two latter terms among people in the towns.
a.k.    
16 Oct 2012  #34

'wujenka' or 'stryjenka'

wujenka = wife of your wujek (mother's brother)
stryjenka = wife of your stryj (brother's brother)
ciotka = parent's sister
Ziemowit 8 | 2,640    
16 Oct 2012  #35

wujek (mother's brother)

Not only. Also ciocia's husband.

stryj (brother's brother)

Brother's brother would still be my brother. ;-) Stryj is my father's brother.
boletus 30 | 1,367    
16 Oct 2012  #36

1. So it isn't Polish

Hard as you try, Harry, twisting the truth will just make you look stupid. I object to the lines #3, #6. Never said such things, you liar! Next time I am going to report you without hesitation.

Line 4: Controversy between Silesian dialect vs. Silesian language aside - there are dialects of Silesian, such as Cieszyn Silesian dialect, Niemodlin Silesian dialect, Prudnik Silesian dialect, etc.

I said "Lower Silesian dialect", cannot you fecking read? There is a word of difference between "Silesian language" , "Lower Silesian dialect", and Wijewo dialect, or rather sub-dialect (gwara).

Summing up: Harry is hilarious again in claiming to be a linguistic expert of Polish, its dialects and sub-dialects ("gwaras"), but yet he does not even speak Polish and he does not understand that dialects are the foundation of any literary language, including Polish.
polonius 57 | 421    
16 Oct 2012  #37

Boletus - you are by far the most knowledgeable re things linguisitc.
How would you label or categorise such terms widely used in Polonia. as dziadzia (also spelt jaja), busia, babci, baci, cioci? How about 'kara na kornerze stryty' and 'klinować flory w ofisie'?

Émigré dialect, subdialect, ethnic jargon, argot or something else?
When Afros in the US say axe instead of ask, what would that be? Or 'I goes', 'he like' (inverting the 1st and 3rd person singular present tense endings)?

What about Anglo-American-influenced Franglais in Canada?
strzyga 2 | 994    
16 Oct 2012  #38

a) Yet again a voice from North America claims to know better than a Pole with 85 years' experience of living in Poland.

Yet another Anglophone claims to know more about Polish than a native, educated Pole. Just give it a break. It's not even funny.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,640    
16 Oct 2012  #39

Boletus - you are by far the most knowledgeable re things linguisitc.
How would you label or categorise such terms ...

Why do you want Boletus to do your homework again? ;-)

Harry is hilarious again in claiming to be a linguistic expert of Polish, its dialects and sub-dialects ("gwaras"), but yet he does not even speak Polish and he does not understand that dialects are the foundation of any literary language, including Polish.

Believe me, Harry does know that dialects are the foundations of every language. His game on the forum is of a different kind than some simple exchange of arguments, but not everyone is aware of the game.

He may speak no Polish, but he understands it (at least written Polish) very well and if you happened to have read some of his responses in the threads, you would have not the slightest doubt about it. He may have said somewhere that he doesn't know Polish, but again, saying this it's part of his game ...
Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Oct 2012  #40

Hard as you try, Harry, twisting the truth will just make you look stupid.

And no matter how hard you try, the truth is that 'busia' is very simply not a Polish word. It may well be a possible word for grandmother in some dialects and some of those dialects might well even be Polish, but the fact remains that while in a certain dialect one might be able to use the word, in Polish one cannot.

Yet another Anglophone claims to know more about Polish than a native, educated Pole.

Go and get a Polish dictionary: you'll find that I'm the one who is agreeing with the Poles and our North American friends are yet again the ones who think that they know better.

Never said such things, you liar! Next time I am going to report you without hesitation.

Report away: you'll first have to find quotes of me saying that you said Kashubian is a language and then address the fact of why you accuse me of twisting the truth when the truth is quite simple: the word 'busia' is not found in Polish dictionaries because it is not a Polish word.

But perhaps I should offer you my most enthusiastic contrafibularities and say that I'm anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such pericombobulation?
polonius 57 | 421    
16 Oct 2012  #41

I think Harry effectively has admitted somewhere down the line, a bit between the lines but in a clearly legible manner, that he is only having fun on PF, hence his provocative digressions and tendency to evade the issue. He knows that tactic drives some people up the wall, and that's precisely what he's after. He is not interested in any thoughtful discussion or exchange of ideas.
boletus 30 | 1,367    
16 Oct 2012  #42

you'll first have to find quotes of me saying that you said Kashubian is a language and then address the fact of why you accuse me of twisting the truth when the truth is quite simple

Here you go, mister liar. Where do you see me stating that Kashubian=dialect?

[boletus: here is a jocular Kashubian text, where the word Busia is used.
Kashubian is not a dialect of Polish; it is a language.

LIAR!
As for the rest of your garbage >> to the garbage it goes.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Oct 2012  #43

Please either quote from a post in which I say that you have stated Kashubian is a dialect or withdraw and apologise for your accusation that I am a liar.

I think Harry effectively has admitted

Thank you for your very thoughtful post. I'm not sure how it in any way whatsoever on-topic for this thread.

In order to bring the thread back on topic I'll quote from an article which is about the topic of this thread and ask for your views on it:

That means that "busia" is a strictly Polish-American term

What do you think of the above?
boletus 30 | 1,367    
16 Oct 2012  #44

Please either quote from a post in which I say that you have stated Kashubian is a dialect or withdraw and apologise for your accusation that I am a liar.

boletus said: "here is a jocular Kashubian text, where the word Busia is used."

Harry quoted the above

Harry responded: "Kashubian is not a dialect of Polish; it is a language."

Oh, so Harry was contradicting himself, not me? Oh, how clever!

Another Harry's lie: "Yet again a voice from North America claims to know better than a Pole with 85 years' experience of living in Poland."

Where did I say that? Or Harry is about to say that "a voice from North America" actually meant Harry himself on a business trip to America?

I have no time for your garbage Harry.
sofijufka 2 | 191    
16 Oct 2012  #45

I have called my grandmother "busia". I was born in Lublin, my grandmother - somewhere in Podole...
Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Oct 2012  #46

Harry responded: "Kashubian is not a dialect of Polish; it is a language."

How can I be contradicting you when you have never said that Kashubian is a dialect of Polish? I am pointing out that Kashubian is not even a dialect of Polish (unlike the dialects which you have already mentioned) and is a separate language, so what which words it uses are of as much relevance to this discussion as Serbo-Croat words.

Another Harry's lie: "Yet again a voice from North America claims to know better than a Pole with 85 years' experience of living in Poland."

Where did I say that?

An 85-year old woman from Silesia says that in all her years she has never heard the word: you respond by asserting that word is used in Silesia. Where is the lie?

I note that you have failed to apologise for insulting me even after your inaccuracy has been pointed out to you and that you have once again used insults in your posts. Would you like me to report you?
Ziemowit 8 | 2,640    
16 Oct 2012  #47

Though I more often than not disagree with your opinions, this time I think your observaions are extremely accurate. The term "provocative digressions" is brilliant and describes so well the essence of the game. His tactic once used to drive me up the wall as well, but once I got to know it, I'm having fun instead. He's very clever on the intellectual front and very manipulative on the psychological one (a true tycoon of the modern "New Age" era?). Boletus works so hard trying to explain the thing (quite trivial thing, by the way, but which has become the symbol of the American-European war on the PF) to the audience and then Harry arrives destroying all this by some innocent digressions like the one to Strzyga: Go and get a Polish dictionary: you'll find that I'm the one who is agreeing with the Poles. Then everyone who has read the thread down to this line involontarily imagines how the poor Strzyga goes and gets herself a Polish dictionary through which she finds that Harry was bloody right while she was bloody wrong. The word "busia" exists neither in this nor in another Polish dictionary! Strzyga desperately browses more of them in a nearby library, but again finds nothing which would even resemble the word "busia" and - what's even more terrifying - if she perseveres and goes to the extremes, she will find no trace of it in all those ancient dictionaries so keenly and carefully examined before by Boletus in his on-line searching for the mysterious word "busia".

Boletus is agitated, none the less is Strzyga, Harry pours even more petrol onto the fire, more people are tempted to join in taking one side or another, the argument slowly turns personal, and finally the mods decide to close the thread for "cleaning" or for ever. That's - in short - life according to the PF. At the same time, Busia sleeps in perfect calm in her American home near Chicago, completely unaware she could be the subject of a heated debate!

Ale JaJa ("DziaDzia" in American spelling)!
Harry 81 | 13,431    
16 Oct 2012  #48

Boletus is agitated, none the less is Strzyga, Harry pours even more petrol onto the fire,

Er, I think you'll find that it isn't me who is calling other posters liars (and being somewhat economical with the truth when called upon to support my assertions) and it is not me who repeatedly refers to other people's posts as 'garbage'.

The word "busia" exists neither in this nor in another Polish dictionary!

And there is the point.
rybnik 18 | 1,469    
16 Oct 2012  #49

His tactic once used to drive me up the wall as well, but once I got to know it, I'm having fun instead.

I too enjoy (but I was never perturbed by it).

He's very clever on the intellectual front and very manipulative on the psychological one (a true tycoon of the modern "New Age" era?)

Very well written narrative.
I truly enjoyed reading it.....gratuluje!
NorthMancPolak 4 | 651    
16 Oct 2012  #50

The word "busia" exists neither in this nor in another Polish dictionary!

And there is the point.

I knew the answer anyway, but I asked my mum to check. Like a second opinion, so to speak.

She replied "Co?? hahahahaha!!"

The latter bit sounded familiar, but I can't say why :D
delphiandomine 87 | 15,782    
17 Oct 2012  #51

Actually - since Des got banned, not one thread has been closed or destroyed through arguing. It might get a bit personal like above, but nothing worthy of closing the thread or even mod intervention. They're both big boys, they can have exceptionally pedantic debates without anyone posting 'hahahahaha polonia is laughing at you' style nonsense or insulting Jews, or even Busia.
pip 11 | 1,662    
17 Oct 2012  #52

what is interesting is that this "busia" hasn't made its way into Canada.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
17 Oct 2012  #53

Actually pip, that is rather interesting. I wonder if the Polish community in Canada has any words which are not Polish words and which are not used by American Polonians. My guess would be that it does not, given that a lot of the Poles in Canada arrived after WWII or during communism.
pip 11 | 1,662    
17 Oct 2012  #54

actually, a lot of Poles came during the mass exodus and settled in the prairies. There was nothing in the prairies at that time so they assimilated rather well- started farming etc, the land was cheap at this time--as there was nothing there. There are festivals that celebrate the Polish, German and Ukrainian settlers of this period-as they all managed to get along in Canada.
rybnik 18 | 1,469    
17 Oct 2012  #55

a lot of Poles came during the mass exodus and settled in the prairies

as did my mom's parents, who made Winnipeg home.
polonius 57 | 421    
18 Oct 2012  #56

Busia not onyl means granny in the American Polonia, it has been elevated to the rtankl of a symbol of the good old days of one's Polonian childhood, the simpler, gentler times of comfort foods and the quaintl Old World ambience of which babcia was usually the heart and soul. This notice is an example of that secondary, symoblic meaning of busia:

MADONNA UNIVERSITY HOLDS POLISH NIGHT
LIVONIA: There was festive Polish music and the family style Polish dinner brought forth fond memories of traditions imprinted from Busia. The decorations, entertainment and extra little touches such as featuring Tyskie Polish piwa had everyone enjoying the festivities at Madonna University’s “Be Polish for a Night.”

Nearly always when two languages or cultures come into contact, all kinds of hybrids may emerge. A case in point is Franglais just north of the border. Here is a typical exchange:

Gina: Ah mon amie, veux-tu un beer?
Moi: Non merci, je suis le stuffed. As-tu regardé le episode de Newport Beach hier?!
Gina: Mais bien sûr! Ben McKenzie est un hunk hein?
Moi: Je pense que obviously.

Why Gina did not say bière is beyond me. Maybe just trying to be cute?
Other than imbedding English words as above, it is even more common to Gallicise English roots as in:
crasser (instead of traverser) la rue (cross the road). That formation is similar to the Polonian drajwować karę, pejntowsć giejtę, klinować szusy, etc.
sobieski 108 | 2,133    
18 Oct 2012  #57

I have shown a good friend of mine here in Warsaw your most recent invention. He is from Quebec and thought it to be hilarious.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Oct 2012  #58

MADONNA UNIVERSITY HOLDS POLISH NIGHT

Here's more info about that night: madonna.edu/pdf/support/BePolish.pdf

This fun-filled, fundraiser features:
Big Daddy Lackowski and the La-Dee-Da's Polka Band
...
Silent auction, raffles, polka dance lessons

It seems that 'busha' has rather become a word which signifies rather people pretending to live in a past which simply never existed and thus revealing their ignorance.
sobieski 108 | 2,133    
18 Oct 2012  #59

I do not know from where he invents such hilarious stories. Even the script is bad.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 651    
18 Oct 2012  #60

drajwować karę, pejntowsć giejtę, klinować szusy

And you wonder why we laugh at certain Pol-Ams! Thank heavens I was brought up in the UK - where our parents taught us correct Polish, we were constantly corrected on our grammar, and we used none of this Americanised Polish nonsense.

It seems that 'busha' has rather become a word which signifies rather people pretending to live in a past which simply never existed and thus revealing their ignorance.

It's like those mythical English "good old days" where everyone left their doors open, everyone knew everyone on their street, everyone got on fine, there was no crime, and everyone was far happier - despite the fact they had to walk a bloody long way to buy a loaf of Hovis - which they had just worked for 16 hours in t' mill to pay for. "But it were great back then! We were poor but happy". Yeah right. Anyone who has been poor knows it doesn't make you happy. But nostalgia does :)

I was born in the 1960s, and no-one I know has ever lived through such a time, including people my parents age :)

Kids today will be talking about how things "aren't as good as back in the 2010s" in 50 years time. Mind you, we might actually have won the World Cup again by then... lol

I do not know from where he invents such hilarious stories. Even the script is bad.

+1

Then again, any real Pole knows that "jaja" means "b*llocks" in Polish, not "Grandad" haha :)




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