News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]


gregy741 - I'm sorry if I came across as rude. I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with Mr. Crow expressing his views - everyone is entitled to their opinion. Rather than silence anyone, I wanted to point out that he may be "barking up the wrong tree" - as in, the majority of Poles (as I'm sure you would agree), as well as the majority of foreign policy decision-makers in Poland - are not at all concerned with the views of Serbia on Poland-EU issues.

Also, since when do Serbia and Poland share borders? Last I remember there were two countries in between, and quite some distance.

In terms of history, I believe the two would have been on opposite sides more often than not. Whether it be Polish knights facing off against Serbian-born Janissaries in medieval times, or in modern times Poland being the first Slavic nation to recognize Kosovo (after also being the first Slavic nation to endorse the NATO operation).

Though I am absolutely neutral in this question - I would have to say that Russia is likely the only "friend" Serbia has right now. And even in this case, I think the Serbians are unfortunately being used by the "big brother" for his own purposes, rather than out of any true concern for Serbia's interests.

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]


Come on now. Sarmatism is nothing but a form of Magnate-era Polish upper-class fascism. If Poles and Serbs are Sarmats then I am a monkey's uncle.

Sarmatism was a convenient way for the szlachta to separate themselves from the peasants they ruled (avg poles, rusyns, ukrainians, etc).

Why look for conspirological links between the two people, when there is already a real, genetic connection between them as fellow Slavs?

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]

Crow

You conveniently skipped over that part of my comment, which referenced actual AND recent Polish actions which ran counter to Serbian national interests.

On a separate note - if I was Serbian I would be proud of the Janisseries. As a small nation, Serbia could not hope to resist the Ottomans alone for any length of time - nothing shameful in that - but as soldiers within the Osman empire they constituted the elite. Those dudes were badasses - no two ways about it!

Someone should make a movie about the Janisseries.

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]

@Crow

Again, I don't understand why this fantastic Sarmatian connection is necessary when there are other, more established connections between the two peoples.

I don't want to derail this thread, which is intended to discuss the recent epic fail of the PiSlamists, with discussions of Sarmatism.

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]


I'm new to PolishForums (created an account this morning, because I enjoyed the commentary from some, yourself included, on the recent developments surrounding the EU Council president elections).

I found it curious, however, how much Serbia seemed to figure in the discussion. It's only now that I realize it's just 1-2 posters who account for all this. Looking at Crow's profile now, I see he is somewhat of a veteran here.

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]

mafketis

I'm curious what you think about the latest re: last week's vote.

theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/poland-fumes-at-cheating-eu-for-keeping-donald-tusk-in-top-post

This comment from Waszczykowski in the above article has me confused:

"We must adapt our policies and adjust our behaviour concerning the EU. Certainly, we must lower our level of confidence in the EU. We will have to start following a negative policy," he continued, saying that could include "blocking" various European initiatives."

Are they planning on going full-retard? Don't they know that you should never go full retard?!

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]

@delphiandomine

Coming on the heels of Hollande's statement from two weeks ago that a "multi-speed" Europe is the only alternative to a full-scale implosion of the European project (which the PiS cry-babies immediately denounced, although I think its clear to everyone now that this is the only way), I think these recent outbursts from the PiS government will do their job of convincing the core EU countries that something needs to be done and ASAP.

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]

I think it may be interesting for some forum members what Ukrainians think about all this. Seeing as they view Poland as their torpedo inside the EU (without Poland, it would have certainly been harder to keep Ukraine at the top of the EU agenda, what with Brexit, and the refugee cataclysm among other things). And now it seems like there may not even be an EU when the Ukranians are ready to join, thanks to their Polish brothers' hard work on the inside.

This article in Korrespondent (#1 Ukrainian news portal) covers the Tusk re-election:

korrespondent.net/world/3825287-tusk-razdora-pochemu-polsha-zahovoryla-o-krakhe-es

The comments under the article can be summarized as Ukrainians being confused who is the Putin agent here - Tusk or Szydlo? Hahaha

History / Why Poland achieved nothing at all? [69]

The Warner brothers were Jewish, though they do seem to have come from the Masovian Voivodeship. By this criteria Russia is the greatest contributor to science in the world. However, I think that Russian Jews excelled in academia despite the efforts of the Russian state, not because of it. It's surely a troll post, but I think he meant Poles.

History / Why Poland achieved nothing at all? [69]

Wikipedia lists the boomerang as a Polish invention.

Proof: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Polish_inventions

Add that to the list.

History / Why Poland achieved nothing at all? [69]

I can see it now... The Proto-Pole, or as Crow would surely tell us - a Sarmatian - sitting under the shade of a birch in the Białowieża Forest, crafting the first boomerang. What is more Polish than a weapon that is equally dangerous to you as it is to the enemy?

News / Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit [37]

A multi-speed Europe is the only way the project has any hope of staying relevant deeper into the 21st century. It is also an entirely democratic approach to the issues the Union is confronted with (to all those who whine about the Brussels diktat). Polish/Eastern European insistence on the status quo is what will lead to the EU breaking up within just the next decade.

News / Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit [37]

If Germany and France see Poland turning into a non-cooperative actor (as Waszczykowski threatened to do today), it won't matter what the PiSlamists official position on exiting the EU is - for or against - because then those two countries will definitely proceed with deeper integration among themselves without waiting for others to make up their mind. It's grotesque, really, how PiS's doom-mongering about the EU and their parallel actions have this self-fulfilling effect to them.

link to article with Waszczykowski's statements: theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/poland-fumes-at-cheating-eu-for-keeping-donald-tusk-in-top-post

History / Why Poland achieved nothing at all? [69]

WTF people - what about Copernicus?

His father was a merchant from Krakow.

edit: after a little research I see it's not so clear when it comes to Copernicus. Looks like Germans have as much a claim on him as Poles. In any case, modern notions of nationality would have been totally alien in Copernicus' time...

History / Why Poland achieved nothing at all? [69]

@nothanks

Lol! I'm as much a fan of Lewy as the next guy, but do you really believe this qualifies as a Polish contribution to the world? :)

News / Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit [37]

I'm very curious to hear the answer to this as well

News / Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit [37]

In it's own, schizophrenic kind of way, it does makes sense... I guess. I refuse to accept the logic of it though.

Remember this is JK we are talking about. The guy who said he could stomach a couple percentage point hit on Polish GDP growth if it meant the country was set "on the right idealogical course". In his grand vision of Poland, where it is an equal partner of the big boys, is the country that speaks for all of Eastern Europe at the negotiating table in Brussels, is an Eastern European economic tiger (and not a bloated welfare child) and so on and so on - a two-track Europe does mean a reduced influence over events, and a Poland that is once again on the periphery. This would open the door to all sorts of terrors, like for example, France, Germany and Italy working energy deals with Russia without asking Poland's opinion. Now the fact that he fully has the option of avoiding that, but refuses to take it, and does everything instead to hasten it, is what can be chalked up to that aforementioned schizophrenia. You either take the good with the bad, or you shut up and sit down. JK is trying to have his cake, and eat it too.

Sorry if I'm not being very articulate here. It's been a long day, and I'm on my third beer now.

News / Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit [37]

@Ironside

Poland is no UK

Look at that chart? Who do you think Polexit would harm but the Poles themselves?

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News / Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit [37]

What I meant to say by the above chart is that this is a hollow threat and everybody understands that. It would simply humiliate Poland even further.

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]


Why do I get this feeling, that Crnogorac3 and Crow are the same crazy Serb?

Back on topic, here's something I had missed, personally. It's rather old news, seeing as it came before the Tusk re-election, but given the events of the past week I think is more relevant than ever:

wort.lu/en/politics/jean-asselborn-poland-could-be-eu-member-no-longer-says-luxembourg-foreign-minister-58b3f150a5e74263e13ab365

The article is short, so I will quote it here in its entirety:

Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn has questioned Poland's place within the EU, telling German newspaper Tagesspiegel that "today's Poland under Jaroslaw Kaczynski could be an EU member no longer".

He went on to argue that Poland "no longer respects the Copenhagen criteria that the country had to meet before EU accession".

"The government in Poland is more and more involved in restricting the rule of law," he said, adding that the country may have been emboldened by the recent actions of Hungary.

"But there is something else in Poland," he said. "Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the head of the PiS government division, is an ideologue. He believes the EU is a brake-pedal for Poland.

"He wants to create a right-wing conservative social order based on nationality."

This is not the first time Asselborn has publicly criticised a fellow member state.

In September, he called for Hungary to be suspended from the EU for violating democratic "core values" and treating refugees like "animals".

News / Tusk or Hollande -- a Salomonic dilemma? What will be better for Poland? [180]


Perhaps.

This also allows him to say things that would be more difficult for Hollande or Merkel to pronounce out loud.

P.S. - Speaking of Montenegro and Russian trolls - interesting things happening there:

telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/12/boris-johnson-claims-russia-behind-plot-assassinate-prime-minister/

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]


Russia has been building a "Union State" with Belarus since 1996:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

This is above and beyond the framework of the CIS or Eurasian Union. Of course, when Lukashenko inevitably leaves all bets are off, but I would think that the Union State project will survive both Lukashenko and Putin.

Armenia is perhaps Russia's most loyal satrap, depending as they do, on the Russian military to defend them from the Azerbaijanis (Russia, incidentally, supplies weapons systems to both, and AZ is the one that can actually pay hard cash - go figure...).

Literally half of Moldova's working age male population works in Russia. In addition to that, Russia is the largest market for Moldovan exports, which nobody wants in Europe (Moldovan wine anyone?).

Good luck getting Serbia and Croatia together into anything! When they meet each other abroad they are friendly enough with each other, but on a state level there is so much bad blood between the two that it will be decades before one can talk of any union.

So it seems that out of the old Warsaw Pact only Ukraine is a good candidate for alliance building.

edit: Warsaw Pact countries not already in the EU or Nato

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]


Lol, I thought you were joking about this....

But here it is:



On the left is the leader of Ukraine's Svoboda party, Oleh Tyahnybok, who is basically a modern-day Nazi.

EDIT: ehhh, looking more closely at this photo it looks very much photoshopped....

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]

Magyars are not Slavs.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]


That's very interesting! I wasn't aware.

Do you think you could provide some examples?

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]

Thanks Lyzko.

Wikipedia, as always, to the rescue:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_influence_on_Romanian

Seems extensive. But also, it seems that Romanian influenced many Slavic languages in the vicinity as well.

Edit: I thought these were interesting:

slavă - "glory"
bogat - "rich"
boier - "nobleman", cf. BG bolyarin
topor - "axe"
dragoste - "love", cf. SC "draga" ("beloved")

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]

Well...

A very large part continued to live under Ottoman rule for a few more centuries after Mr. Sobieski.

Its after the Crimean War in the 1850s when the final parts began to break free. So yes, Turkish influence lasted for almost 400 years in some places.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]

You know what - I didn't know that! It blows my mind that a Germanic dialect was spoken in Crimea so recently. Wow!

I imagined some Latin/Medieval Italian might have survived because of the very long Genoese control of the peninsula in the heyday of the trading republics, but Gothic... that's interesting.

News / Future of Polish-Ukrainian relations [560]


:)))

In my defense, look at what the Wikipedia article about the Crimean Goths says: "They were the least-powerful, least-known, and almost paradoxically, the longest-lasting of the Gothic communities."

Least-powerful, least-known - can I be forgiven for missing this in history class? :)