News / Germany After the EU and the Russian Scenario - future of the European Union and Poland [310]

See Poland is a bad geopolitical spot. Poland has a long, complicated history with Russia which has included dozens of wars throughout the centuries. Poland just got out of Russian communist rule - even when I was living in Poland it was still Communist. (Quite frankly, we had it very good under Communism and never lacked for anything. If anything, life for us was more difficult in the years after Communist but that's beside the point.) Poland is weary of Germany also, because like Russia it has had many wars throughout history.

After the USSR collapsed and Poland was no longer a satellite nation, it chose to ally with NATO. Then Poland joined the EU. So Poland is now allied with the same neighbor that invaded it just 70 some years ago and the same countries that promised to help Poland but did next to nothing. This was smart at first because Poland needed new trading partners now that the USSR was dissolved and sought military allies so it kind of made sense. They basically picked the lesser of 2 evils. However, now Poland is a very wealthy nation - the 21st largest economy by GDP worth over $1 trillion. Yes, the EU helped with it a lot but Poland gave up a lot of it's political decisions and sovereignty in return for EU funds. Now Poland has to decide whether to continue to give into the EU's demands or forge it's own path. I don't think that Poland will totally back out of the EU because of all the trade with EU countries. I'd like to see Poland form stronger economic, political, and military ties with the Visegard 4, Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Ukraine, the Baltic states, and even perhaps Russia. Poland ought to focus more on its neighbors, especially those that are resisting EU hegemony. There's a lot of potential with trade between Poland and Russia especially with the sanctions. However, I feel that the EU would prevent Poland from taking advantage of the situation. The EU really has Poland by the balls but the governments of Poland, the Visegrad 4, and Russia are realizing that the EU, France, and Germany are in decline - especially because of this whole migrant mess.

Germany, France, and Belgium can't even protect their borders and their citizens anymore yet they dictate to Poland and the Visegard 4 what they should and shouldn't do.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]

What about it? Those are two different topics - Poland never really had an empire and the most amount of land they had was in the 1500's to 1600's. The period of Sarmatians and Scythians was nearly 1,000 years before this time period. Empire of Poland when I think of it is the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - that was the largest Poland ever was and at the time was the 4th largest country in Europe. Poland, stupidly, did not have any colonies in Africa, Asia, or other parts of the world which would've made them far richer instead of just relying on their agriculture based economy.

The Sarmatia to me is more the lands of like Ukraine, the Balkans, Hungary, Russia, etc. That era is way before Poland became an official country and was baptized in the 966. Sarmatian and Scythian culture existed around the end of the Roman empire and into the period right before Poland became a country. The Sarmatians and Scythians were one of the Iranian ancenstry groups that moved around during the great migration - of whom yes many settled in Poland, Germany, Hungary, etc.

There aren't too many records and few historical artifacts from pre-Christian Poland. In the B.C. era, like 3,000 B.C. to 2,000 B.C. most commonly Poland at the time was thought to be populated by the corded ware/battle ax culture - most of this was still stone age technology. Then came Trzciniec Culture in Poland during the early Bronze age. Then followed the Lusatian culture from around 1,000 B.C. to around 500 B.C. which would've been the middle Bronze age in Poland. The migration period in Europe began with Rome's decline and lasted from the the 1st century A.D. to around the 9th century A.D. - that's when you start seeing cultures like the Sarmatians and Scythians showing up in Poland. The area of Poland had a lot of different groups, including many foreign during the migration period, but due to the lack of artefacts or written records, there is a lot of uncertainty and debate in this topic.

Here is a brief timeline of some of the groups that are thought to have lived in Poland prior to 966 are as follows:

Battle Axe, Corded Ware Culture - 3,000 B.C. to around 2,000 B.C. - specifically the Globular Amphora Culture occupied the areas around modern day Warsaw. Mostly stone age.

Trzciniec culture - 2,000 to 1,000 B.C. - early Bronze age in Poland - more advanced domestication, farming, some very early metals arrive like gold, silver, bronze

Lusatian culture - 1,000 B.C. to 500 B.C. - middle Bronze age in Poland - pottery, fortifications, increased trade for metals like bronze from the south for Poland's amber along with some increased domestic production of copper/bronze

Here's where it starts to get confusing because of the migration of people from Rome, the migration of people from the Nordic countries, and the migration of the Scythians/Sarmatians, who are Iranian in origin: 500 B.C. to about 800 A.D.

Migration of Germanic and Nordic tribes in northern Poland (Goths) and Germanic tribes in Western Poland - around 500 B.C. to 100 A.D. all the way to further south by the

300/400 A.D. Period - this is where you see an intersection of cultures that arrived from Sweden and Germany mixing with those during the migration period after the fall of Rome along with the Scythians/Sarmatians and Vandals which arrived in Poland around 200-100 B.C. You begin to see cultures like the Oksywie (northern Baltic Poland to the Wisla - includes the Rugians), Wielbark (eastern Poland - Germanic - Goths, Veneti), Przeworsk (southern Poland - Vandals, later Burgundians) cultures. From the Wielbark culture you see other subgroups like the Goths, Rugians, Veleti, Veneti (which became the Wends from Pomeramia and are considered early Germanic-Slavic people) because they shared many of the same lands in northern and eastern Poland near the Wisla. These were mostly Germanic/Baltic cultures that were in Poland aside from Okyswie (which had some La Tene Culture characteristics, Central and Western Europe like from France to Czech, but north of Alps with some Celtic influence, and also later mixed with the Rugians and became the Pomeranians) who also mixed with the Przework culture which included the Vandals. This becomes very complicated because all these cultures intermingled quite a bit like the Oksywie (north of Alps, Central Europe) mingled with the German/Danish Rugians from the Wielbark culture and also mingled with the Vandals/Burgundians who were almost constantly on the move so it gets to be very complicated. Then come the Huns and Scythians from lands like Hungary into Poland too around the 300-500's mixing with the Burgundians - another mobile traveling group of people. Even the Roman emperors were confused as to what exactly the groups living in modern day Poland were because their culture was similar to the Germans but their language was different.

Migration period - 100 AD to 700/800 AD - Vandals (come from Scandinavia around 1st century AD, begin to form settlements in S.E. Poland/Czech/Silesian areas near the Odra) , Burgundians (around 1st century AD start showing up - formed part of Attila the Hun's army in 400 AD) but then later are given a kingdom near northern Italty/southern France... there was a ton of people on the move at this time in Europe, especially in the lands of Poland, the Kievan Rus, Germany, the Balkans, etc. There wasn't as much movement in France or England when compared to Central and Eastern Europe around this time period.

Around 800-1000 A.D. this group becomes collectively known as the Lechites (of which there is about 6 main groups and around 20 sub groups - all living in or around modern day Poland in various city-states and tribes) and the culture and language becomes more universal in modern day Poland. The piast dynasty, many of whom were pagan up until Christianization and also were named 'Lech' which is still a popular Polish name, and even the name of a Beer, united the tribes and city states of various lands like those in Silesia, Pomerania, etc. and hence that is how the name 'Lech' came from Lechites. This is where modern Poland begins to show up but again it really depends on what part of Poland because the culture in East Poland may differ from that in the north which would differ from that in the West. These cultures were mostly pagan up until Christianity spread and Poland became Christianized.

Hope that helps... when you speak of Sarmatians and Scythians that is a broad topic and that's just one of many groups and cultures that migrated into Poland during pre-Christian Poland.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]


That's because the Sarmatian were Iranian of descent.

So yes, modern Poles do have Iranian blood in them.

This is something that Hitler and the Nazis studied a lot and led many excavations into Persia, Pakistan, Iraq, India - those areas. That was the basis of their proto-Aryan race theories - which does have a lot of scientific and archeological backing.

See the thing is, migration spread throughout Europe as metallurgic technology spread. Poland and Germany was actually quite behind in this - we were entering the middle/late bronze age while the Turks and Romans were already in the Iron age.

Modern Poles consist of a mix of a bunch of different ancient groups. Some of the ones from pre-Christian Poland that existed in the late Bronze/early Iron age of that area included the Vandals, Goths, Gepids, Rugians, Vendi, Huns, Sarmatians (which lived in the western part of Scythia), Nordic cultures, Celts, etc. who then formed city-states/tribes like the Polans, Pomeranians, Veneti, Sorbs, Wends, Slovans, etc.

I'm sure there could have well been a Sarmatian revival during the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as the Scythians were probably the largest and most powerful of the ancient cultures that were a part of modern Poland. There were a lot of revivals of old cultures during the Renaissance, Baroque, and Victorian periods. In Italy, the locals revived the old culture of their ancestor's - the Romans - in their art, writing, philosophy, architecture, etc. In Victorian England, it was fashionable to have Egyptian decorations in your home and even have a mummy in your living room. Perhaps Poland was trying to revive their old culture as well and they may have thought it would be better to emulate the Sarmatian Scythians than the Gepids who were thought of as lazy rowers or the other cultures that may were a little behind the times as far as metallurgy is concerned anyway.

However, when you speak of Sarmatians in general to most people that is an ancient culture that existed around the end of Rome' reign. They would've been more on the south eastern borders of Poland and I'd imagine the Sarmatians probably had more influence on countries like Ukraine, Serbia, Hungary, etc. I do know that the Hussars of Hungary shared a lot in common with the Hussars of Poland. To my understanding, the first Hussars were actually Serbs that fought under the banner of the Hungarians. Maybe Sarmatism became more popular as Poland's boundaries during the commonwealth stretched more towards the Black Sea - although I'd imagine this was most likely the nobles of the day that they had a proud, ancient culture.

I'm not an expert on pre-Christian Poland. However, the books and articles that I have read on this topic it would seem that the Vandals, Goths, Nordic, and East Germanic tribes had a bit more influence on the lands that include modern day Poland.

Again though, if I were a king in the commonwealth and doing some d**k sizing with Poland's neighbors, I'd pick the Sarmatians as my ancestors over a meandering group of barbarians such as Vandals, Goths, etc. too.

Here's what Poland would've looked like around 100-200 A.D. - keep in mind by the time of Mieszko I, and even the semi-legendary Popielec dynasty, these tribes would've intermingled and be known as the Veneti (north Poland), Polans (center), Pomeranians (Odra and Visla, anywhere near water - their name comes from 'of the sea' or people from the sea' - morze is modern day Polish for sea), Silesians/Sorbs (Silesia), etc.

The migration of these times is very impressive - if you look at this map you'll notice the Burgundians in Poland during this time period but several centuries later they were given their own kingdom in southern France/northern Italy - even known to this day as modern Burgundy.

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History / What are Poland's pagan roots? [62]

I don't know why that one particular post got put in here because I don't think it has much to do with Poland's pagan roots - if I recall it was a response to Pol Attorney regarding something about priests...

Anyway, I wrote a pretty long article explaining Poland's pre-Christian past in the 'Sarmatian' thread. If you want to know more about proto-slavs, the tribes that lived in Poland prior to 966, the migration of cultures and groups in and out of Poland, check it out.

The way Poland's history as far as religion went is as follows:

pagan (people were mostly cremated - inhumations are rare) -> Arianism /pagan mix till 966 (different from Aryanism which is a racial ideology. Arianism is an early Christian belief that basically states that Jesus, as the son of God, is obedient to God the Father. Arianism faced much backlash and all but ended during the Council of Nicene which effectively eliminated Arianist beliefs under the threat of death) -> Christianity in 966 when Mieszko I converts from paganism to the version of Christianity as the Vatican dictates. This was widely a political move since it united the various tribes, prevented other Christian nations from attacking, and would serve as better ties among the more advanced nations in the area. Some Jews began to enter Poland since they were kicked out of almost every European country around the time of Kazimierz Wielki. He reaffirmed an old law passed nearly 100 years ago that prevented forced Christianization and Baptism of Jews, but it wasn't under Kazimierz Wielki that the Jews settled in massive numbers. Jan Matejko painted a famous painting of this. Then, some Tatar Muslims that were very loyal to Poland entered around the time of the Commonwealth. Poland had a huge Jewish population till WW2 when most were deported or killed. Presently, Poland is majority Catholic with small pockets of Jews, Protestants, and Tatar Muslims.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]

Crow, ancient Iran was Persia and before that was Sumeria. The Scythians/Sarmatians were one of the many groups thay migrated out of this land.

The map above shows Poland in the 1st/2nd century c.e. The Sarmatians are located more near Ukraine, Hungary, etc. I'm sure there were some Sarmatians that came to Poland but they weren't the majority. Perhaps this thought and influence became more prevalent during the Commonwealth because Poland expanded to areas that use to be Sarmatian lands.

If anything most of the influence on pre Christian Poland during the migration period after the fall of Rome were Vandals, Goths, and other East German/Scandinavian/Baltic tribes like the Rugerians, Veneti (Wends) as cited by Ptolemy, Gepids, etc. Many of these tribes would end up fighting against the Huns and later allied with them during Atillas time.

The issue is that there is not much study into pre Christian Poland. Most Poles regard this as a dark pagan period, although Arianism was somewhat popular. Furthermore, there is not much archaeology aside from the Biskupin fortress and some iron tools left by the Vandals and Goths.

Crow I am familiar with the Etruscans, Thracians, Gauls, Kievan Rus, etc. I studied Latin for four years in high school and most of our lessons included translating historical texts, speeches, decrees, war diaries, etc.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]


Sorry meant Elam which was basically the parallel to Sumer - general Mesopotamia area. You're right Sumeria was more Iraq near the Tigris and Eurphrates with Ur I believe being their largest city. However, much of the info that we know about proto-Persia actually comes from Sumerian writings like the Sumerian Kings List. Elam later became the Archamenid empire and later the Median empire. This general area was very very civilized compared to the rest of the world, especially Europe which was still mostly living as hunter gathers with no fortifications,


I know - I'm talking about the people who existed in those times in pre-966 Poland.


Partially true. There is a bit of debate in this. The culture that would've existed in Poland, again going by modern day borders, would've been the Lusatians which were all over Poland, but developed originally in Lodz, and later became the Pomeranians that lived between the Odra and Wisla which mixed with the Przeworsk culture (contained tribes like the East German Rugians and Lemovi) that was already there. Also, the Veneti, which became modern day Wends/Wendish culture, lived from the Wisla to the north up to Gdansk and are thought to be a Germanic/Batlic people. However, again, this is debatable because most of the tribes like the Gepids, Rugerians, Veneti (Wends), Goths, Vandals were all Germanic tribes. There is a lot of debate on what the ethnicity of the Lusatians is (the culture before the Pomeranians) but it is said that they developed from the earlier Trzciniec culture which is proto-Baltic-Slavic. However, it is said that the Lusatians, which the Trzciniec culture developed into, had many influences from Northern and Western European lands like the Nordic culture and also La Tene culture (ancient Celtic culture) which is more pre-French/Swiss/German.

Some tribes were allied with the Huns and fought against the Romans and other local tribes while some tribes were allied with the Romans and fought against the Huns. Like the Gepids constantly fought the Huns, but then allied with them around the time of Attila. When the Roman empire fell and the huns gained power there were many tribes who migrated westward out of fear resulting in further mixing and assimilation of tribes in Poland/East Germany. The Gepids for example though, like the Rugians, are thought to be a Germanic people and either related to the Goths or a subgroup of them, and they lived in lands that are modern day Poland.

There really isn't too much written records about the slavs aside from Romans and Greeks describing the people who would've lived in Poland. The writing they had aren't too good either - could be propoganda - but we were described as very violent, leaderless people, that were rather disorganized but nonetheless endured hardships and refused to be conquered and subjugated. Our looks included fair to lightly tan skin, very tall and strong, often blue eyes and a wide range of hair colors from blonde, brown, to red.

So in summary, there were a lot of influences on Poland before 966 - Scandinavian (possibly?) Goths, East German Vandals, possibly local Przeworsk (included East Germanic people like the Rugians - who originally came from Norway - means Rye in old norse and similar to rzyto in Polish), Scandinavian Jastorf who's languages became modern day Germanic languages, the Basternae (thought to be a Germanic people originally from northern Poland - lived in the Carpathian mountains as their northern borders and mostly around Dacia which is mostly modern day Romania, they had language similarities to the Sarmatians and were thought to be a tribe or subgroup of the Sarmatian Scythians - could be correct but could also be due to assimilation)

Due to the lack of written records of this time period (unlike say Sumeria, Elam, Egypt) it is difficult to determine ethnicity for certain of these cultures. Researchers can only go by archaeology and cultural influences. Like for Lusatian culture we know they had Nordic influence by the types of bronze weapons and tools discovered but also possibly La Tene culture because of the decorative items and similarities of urns discovered in Poland were similar to those found in France, Austria, Germany, etc.

Here is an excellent source with a timeline of Poland history that goes from 9000 B.C. to the present:
historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternPoland.htm#Vidivarii

If you are interested in learning more about Sarmatism in Poland there are many books on the topic. There's one called 'Sarmatians In The Polish Past'

As as Poland's pre-966 history, Tacitus and Ptolemy are probably the best written sources. Even they couldn't figure out the exact ethnicity of the people who lived in Poland (again, going by the modern boundaries) at the time but stated that they were similar in culture to the east Germans.

Here is a brief exerpt from a website:


everything.explained.today/Sarmatism

Here is an article from Tacitus around 100 AD describing the people that would've inhabited Eastern Europe - granted a bit east of Poland as during the 1st century most of the people that would've lived in modern day Poland would've been Vandals, Goths, Gepids, Rugians, etc. The Fenni and Veneti/Venedi lived a bit further east in Russia/Belarus but would've come closer to Poland throughout the european migration and also as the huns gained power.


The Romans, and especially the Greeks, didn't like the slavs very much because they'd constantly pillage their cities and destroy everything.

Ptolemy classes the Veneti/Venedi as being more closely located to the Baltic in the areas of Poland up to the Wisla in the 2nd century. A later author, Jordanes, states that the Veneti are the ancestors of Slavs and originated from around the Wisla and migrated outward.

There is so much mixing of tribes and movement in Poland from around 500 B.C. to 800 A.D. that it's nearly impossible to determine a single common ancestral group. The Veneti are oftentimes the most accepted - but even they, along with most of the others, are East Germanic people.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]

Here is a distribution of Halpogroup R1a. 50%+ of Poles have this halpogroup in the DNA. It is widely believed that R1a originated from Iran.

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History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]


It depends what time period you're talking about. Gernally, though Iran has always been the center of the Persian empire except for the periods it was under Macedonian and Mongol control and also conquered during the Islamic conquest of Persia.

Median/Archaemenid/Pathian/Sasanian empires stretched from Afghanistan/Pakistan regions to Turkey but always included modern day Iran.

Generally though, Persia = Iran... Persians = Iranians..

Yes, R1a is not that common in Iran but subclade R1a1 is. R1a is thought to have originated from that around the Iran-Pakistan-India area, went through Central Asia, Russia, then finally Eastern Europe. There are many Poles and East Germans that are R1a1 as well as Pashtuns, Bedoins in Kuwaits, many Turks, and Iranian - however R1a isn't found there except for a small incidence in northern Iran. There's not many Europeans west of Poland that have R1a - most people in like France, Spain, Britain, etc. are R1b.

The largest R1a presense is seen in West Bengal Brahmins and north Indian Brahmins (technically castes) from India, Krygyz, certain Tajiks, Poles, Russians, and Ukranians. R1a-M458 is especially common in modern day Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Austria (surprisingly), and Ukraine. It's highest prevalence though is in the area of Poland, Czech Republic, part of S.E. Germany, and Slovakia - especially near rivers going to the Baltic. M458 however does have a small incidence in Turkey and the Caucasus.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]

Sarmatia/Scythia was pretty much extinct by the time Poland had Lechtic tribes like the Polans, Silesians, Masovians let alone by the time Poland became a country in 966. Technically, Sarmatia was basically western Scythia but by the turn of common era, Sarmatian culture became a bit more dominant than the Scythian. The differences was basically a different supreme God and a larger role in society for woman than just cooking and making babies.

Around the 1st century, Sarmatia/Scythia was at its peak and it stretched up to the Wisla - so it is likely that they influenced the S.E. tribes of Poland (again, going by current modern day boundaries). So yes, Sarmatia probably did have a bit of influence on Poland and it looks like a revival occured around the time of the Commonwealth - perhaps especially since it included more south eastern lands that were traditionally Sarmatian strongholds. There is little to no evidence of Sarmatians living near the Odra or near the Baltic - those were East Germanic tribes like the Vandals and Norse/Germanic tribes like the Goths (Gotland in southern Sweden is thought to be the origin of the Goths).

Sarmatian culture is beautiful and I could understand why the nobles would implement it. They'd make a better impression adapting red boots, red cloaks, and intricate decorative weaponry as well as clothing would make a better impression than wearing barbarian type clothing and painting your skin blue. Plus ideas like religious tolerance, military technology, honoring ancestors, etc. helped with unifying the different cultures withint he society.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I don't know why people always get their panties all up a bunch about abortion - yeah it's sad but it's a necessary evil nonetheless. I didn't see anything about an abortion when the woman was raped and doesn't want to keep it in that website that OP posted - so I'm assuming you can't get an abortion either if a woman is raped or if you are unable to raise children. Sometimes an abortion is the lesser of two evils if you know you can't raise a child and that child's life will be awful or the father will never be there. Personally, if I were a woman in Poland and got pregnant because I was raped or very poor, I'd save everything I could to get an abortion in another country.


It's homing pigeons actually, or at least that's what we had.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]


You're right - it would've been probably before the migration and up to the migration. From what I read, Sarmatia was pretty much done by 200. The local tribes most likely mixed with the Sarmatians quite a bit. It appears that the Sarmatian culture was dominant but did have some characteristics of the already local East German tribes. I think that the tribes would've had a Sarmatian dominant culture though. During the migration period we see those people then get further mixed during the migration period, settling into city-states, and ultimately being united to form a nation in 966.

Yeah there is very very few records about the Veneti, Gepids, etc. Most of what he have is from Roman and Greek politicians and military leaders as well as academics like Ptolemy. The interesting thing though is that their religion is thought to be very similar to Greek and Roman mythology. Like the god of lightning would've been Perun, based on Zeus/Jupiter. We do have some pagan traditions and rituals in Poland though to this day - there is one particular popular one that involves making a female like effigy and drowning her in a river or settling her ablaze.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Yeah pretty much. Only other options would be to try to get the abortion pill illegally - and I don't think that works after some period of time. I don't know - people need to be more cognizant about the child's future and not just keep having a bunch of unprotected sex like rabbits.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I am saying that poor women will have it much more difficult to keep a child. A parent ought to provide clothing, shelter, food, education, medicine - all these cost money. It is much harder for a poor person to provide. Furthermore, a child that is born with some serious birth defect has hardly any quality of life. If the parents cannot afford the costly treatments, psychiatrists, therapies, special schools, and well as constantly being around the child it really makes things difficult - for both the child and the parents. The parents will wonder who will take care of the child once they are gone or simply are too old to work and care for the child. What then, especially if they are middle, lower-middle class Polish family?

I was a fan of the PiS government - I like their economic policies, I'm glad they're being tougher on foreign investors taking advantage of Polish economy, and I'm glad that to see that they wish to give 500 zl to Polish families with more than 2 children.

However, this is a blatant violation of separation of church and state. The only reason they did this is because they control both houses and it's going to be that much more difficult for PO or any future governments to overturn it.

No matter how you look at it, abortion is a necessary evil. You can't fault a woman to terminate a pregnancy that was the result of rape or incest.


I know - that's why I am firmly pro-Choice. I identify as a conservative but PiS really went too far with this. The only choices a Polish woman would really have is go to a neighboring country like the Czech Republic where abortions are legal and not as expensive, finding a sympathetic local pro-choice doctor, or buying RU-48 off the black market - which you don't know if it's the real thing or a Chinese/Indian counterfeit with little to no active medicine.

This is a slippery slope. I am a practicing Roman Catholic but I still believe in separation of church and state. What's next - a PiS ban on condoms? How can you guys be totally supportive of this ban yet lambast Iran and other Muslim countries for being theocracies? Poland is already backwards in terms of social services. There is little support for the people on the lowest rungs on society - the alcoholics, the abused woman, the drug addicts who want to get clean, the gays, etc. I don't think pray the vodka/abusive husband/gay away is going to work for the majority of people...

The upper-middle class will be fine with this ban - it won't really matter to them. They can take a train or a plane to a number of local countries and have the procedure performed in a professional setting. This ban is going to hurt the people who need it most - the poor since they won't be able to afford travel and high medical costs.

I really hope that this ban is changed soon.. the last statistic I heard was that around 1900 women have abortions a year in Poland. Seems like a lot of time and money spent on something that only a minor percent of the population participate in... There are much bigger issues at hand - leave the women alone.

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]


He is correct - those groups you mention are just some of the more than 20 groups that would've fallen under the 'Lechite' branch - modern day Slavic people that spoke similar languages and lived around Poland. Again, he's referring to 'do polowy 8 wieku' around the time of the Christianization of Poland. Mieszko I stated that he wished to unit the various Lechite groups - Lugii, Venti, Gepids, Rugii, Polans, Silesians, etc. If we're going by specific tribes and groups then yes, those would've been the people who dwelled in Poland around the 8th century. However, these tribes/small city states would've origined prior to the 8th century from a mix of Vandal/Goth/Norse/East German/Sarmatian mix - of course depending on area - the people near the Baltic like the Rugians would be more influenced by Norse/Goth than say Lugii which would've been more influenced by Vandals/Germans and possibly Sarmatians even.The Lusatians were way before this time (1000BC-500BC).

The Lugii have been identified by many modern historians as the same people as the Vandals, with whom they must certainly have been strongly linked during Roman times

Also, remember that sometimes names like Lugii or Vandals can be interchanged - depending on how specific we want to get. Herwig Wolfram:"In all likelihood the Lugians and the Vandals were one cultic community that lived in the same region of the Oder in Silesia, where it was first under Celtic and then under Germanic domination."

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News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Polish women travel to get abortions in other countries:

reuters.com/article/us-poland-abortion-idUSTRE67P46Z20100826

Official statistics show only several hundred abortions are performed every year, but pro-choice campaigners say underground abortions are very common. That's probably where I got that 1,900 abortions a year figure... I'm guessing that is not the correct number seems far too low.

"We estimate... that on average 150,000 abortions are performed per year," Wanda Nowicka, head of the Federation for Women and Family Planning, told lawmakers at a meeting in the Polish parliament on Thursday. This estimate seems a bit more high, but definitely on the right track... 1,900 abortions a year? Maybe for a country with a population of a few million but not 38 million..

An illegal abortion in Poland costs 2,000-4,000 zlotys ($640-$1,270), compared to 400-600 euros ($510-$760) in Germany, 280 euros in the Netherlands and 450-2,000 pounds ($700-$3,120) in Britain, they said. That's a lot of money for an average Pole, let alone a woman that very well could be unemployed/underemployed, unmarried, etc. The upper middle, or even middle class woman will be able to afford these costs.

Here's one from a 'pro-life' website - lifenews.com/2016/04/04/poland-prime-minister-backs-measure-to-protect-unborn-babies-by-banning-all-abortions/

I wonder what would happen if a priest knocked up some girl - this does happen in Poland especially in more rural areas ... would they still be singing pro-life praises or would they want to hide their shame? What about if the PiS guys knocked up their mistress? I'm sure they'd want to keep it hush-hush. All these pro-life guys are so adamant about this topic till one day pull and pray doesn't work out so well for them and they don't want a kid. Then, they're the first ones to think of 'other options.'

Website about a Polish abortion doctor in Germany - discusses the '2 minute' procedure - natemat.pl/110965,polski-lekarz-wykonujacy-aborcje-w-niemczech-to-maly-krotki-zabieg-trwa-dwie-minuty-i-pacjentka-idzie-do-domu

I tried to go on the website stopaborcji.pl but it has a ton of spyware so I had to shut it done.

I'd like to add that I have seen the effects of abortion first hand - it really is a very nasty, disgusting practice especially in later term pregnancies. I use to work for an international medical waste company and some of the more unscrupulous customers of ours and even truck drivers would buy and sell dead fetuses for everything from the placenta, to certain hormones for body builders, to medical research on growing organs, etc. This was a small amount of people involved in this but it did include some people looking to make some side cash at Planned Parenthood. Nonetheless, abortion is a necessary evil. Think of if you got raped by some alcoholic or even a family member, or found out that your child would have a serious medical condition and there's no way you could support him or her on a secretary's salary, let alone provide some half decent quality of life.

When I typed in 'Poland Adoption' this is the second website that came up (the first was a US government site)

saintmaryadoption.com/international-adoption/poland-adoption/

It states 'When you talk to someone at our agency, the information we provide about Poland adoption is based on real experience. That is 16 years of experience and over 190 Polish children placed.'

In 16 years, they had over 190 Polish children placed... doesn't sound like a huge success to me...

On adopt.com, I found that only about 70-110 children from Poland are adopted in the US.

Also, most people want to adopt a healthy baby - not many want to take in a child with Down's Syndrome as it takes up even more time and finances than a normal child.

Doesn't seem like adoption is totally viable Ironside...

What else would you suggest then? An orphanage?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I simply stating if the shoe was on the other foot, these pro-life men would be singing a different tune- or at least privately.

Mitt Romney is one of the most pro-life politicians there is - yet he had huge investments in the company I worked at despite knowing we deal with abortion clinics and they're among out best customers. We have an entire division dedicated to that waste stream.

The problem is this is going to hurt poor women the most - the ones who don't have enough money to travel abroad for an abortion. Your adoption method is totally flawed. So let's even use that government figure of 1,900 abortions a year - which seems way to statistically under reported, but we'll use it anyway. Let's say even 200 of those children get adopted - which would be a rather high figure. That leaves you with 1,700 orphans, children the result of unwanted pregnancies, children the result of rape/incest, and children with health issues and little to no quality of life.


Exactly. Free will. So leave it up to the woman and her conscience. Let her decide if she is ready or not to raise a child. Let her decide if she has the time and resources to care for a child with Down's. Let her decide if she will go to hell or not after her cousin raped her.

What about the Polish 'materacy' that served as comfort woman to the Nazi's during WW2? Would you let them get abortions?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

When you wrote this I assumed you meant abortion in general:

Ironside - Anyway I fail to see logic in the reason given for decriminalization of abortion

Abortion is said to stop a beating heart and it is killing 'life' - I don't think that's the argument. The problem is more the lack of separation of Church and State and a bill that will harm poor women the most for years since PiS controls both houses and it's going to just be that much harder to undo this law in the future.


I guess my grandma was murdered then. She had cancer and was on her last leg in her mid 80's - bed ridden, going in and out of the hospital, family struggling to pay the medical bills, etc. She got really sick as a result of all the meds, chemo, radiation, etc. she was taking and stated she was ready to go. The doctor gave her a shot of morphine, to make her comfortable upon my grandma's own request. What is more moral - ending a person's suffering upon their request or saying no and further allowing them to suffer because 'morals' tell you that shot of morphine murdered her?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


That's the problem. Yet these same individuals that love a church and state union criticize Iran and other Muslim theocracies. This new PiS law would mean that Iran's official stance on abortion is more liberal than Poland's... that's just sad... By the way, Iran's laws are very similar, actually even a bit more liberal, to the 'pre-ban' laws that existed in Poland.

What about condoms? Should PiS and the Catholic Church make that illegal too? I mean that's preventing human life from forming...

History / Sarmatism in Poland [119]

Actually more of it from here - historyfiles.co.uk/ yes some of the maps and quotes I got from Wiki....

Here is a complete history of Poland, the tribes, cultures, etc. that inhabited it from around the last ice age up to modernity

historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternPoland.htm#Lusatian

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Actually, it does have a valid point. It's easy for a well heeled politicians to make judgments on others. If one of their daughters got knocked up, I'm sure they'd send her abroad for a quick procedure rather than have voter's find out about that a politician's unmarried daughter had an illegitimate child.

This law won't matter to the wealthiest individuals who can afford to go to Germany, Czech Republic, etc. It affects the women who cannot - which is the poor who do not have money to pay for a plan or train ticket to another country plus the medical costs.

This really is more an of an issue for PiS than the church - every Catholic knows the church's official stance on abortion... but for PiS to take such a radical approach is going to hurt their party - not so much the church.

What about the Nazi's that raped Polish women? Would you allow those women to get abortions? What about my dying grandma who, upon her own request, got a shot of morphine so she could fall asleep and go peacefully - is that murder too? I'd argue that's more 'moral' than having her suffer even longer.


Kind of sounds like something Stalin or Mao would say. Ever heard of free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of press, right to pursue happiness? Religion or lack there of is a private matter.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/04/02/poland_pushes_to_end_abortion/1219893

Beata Szydlo - But she also made clear that this is her "personal opinion and not necessarily that of all members" of her conservative ruling Law and Justice party. Szydło said that if the bill is taken up by parliament, she will not insist that all party members vote in favour of the proposed anti-abortion legislation. "Each of us will be guided by our own conscience."

She is allowing her own personal views and beliefs to be made law affecting everyone even if they have a different belief - that's not right.

What if impregnated your daughter or your wife? Would you still not allow them to get an abortion? Would you rather raise it as your own or send it to an orphanage where it has an abysmally low chance of being adopted (estimated 80k orphans, a hundred a year or so at best are adopted - only 35 in 2012 according to the US Dept of State)?

If the Catholic Church never killed anyone, never tortured anyone, never sent children to fight their wars, never molested a child, never massacred other religions, and most of all never hid their own sins and was open and honest with them, then perhaps I'd listen to them a bit more as a moral authority.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

A couple of people that get off to 2 girls 1 cup videos don't represent even a small fraction of most polish people, or humans for that matter... There are pederasty groups in the US too but I highly doubt the age of consent is going to get lowered because of these groups. The vast majority of people find that kind of stuff disgusting. I don't see how a sexual perversion correlates to abortion.

Thank goodness. PiS is pushing the envelope too far, too quickly, and too soon. Even though most Poles identify as Roman Catholic, we don't want a theocracy. I like their economic plans and wishes to help families, but their social views are a bit skewed on what most Poles expect in their country. Let's not forget that under Communism the abortion laws were more lax than they are now.

It was nice to see Polish women walking out of church - big message to the church and PiS. I understand them 100%. I remember when I moved to Florida I found a Polish Parish and would go just about every Sunday. Literally almost every like little sermon towards the end of the mass before the final blessing would be some pro life, abortion hating message. It really got old after a few weeks. There are much more important things than people deciding what a woman they never met should do or not do.

Genealogy / Why are some Polish people dark complected, and others very light [511]

I've always wondered that... my dad is pretty dark skinned for a Polish guy - almost like gypsy colored but my mom is super white. I'm darker than my mom but nowhere like my dad. All 3 of us have blue eyes.

We joke that he's part Mongol since he has beady eyes and dark skin hehe. Most Poles are pretty light skinned but there are a handful that are pretty damn dark for Europeans - not like black or Hispanic, but like almost a light Indian/Tamil/gypsy type of color.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


The problem is that if one doesn't have a legal option for abortion, they will have to try other means and see what they can and can't afford. If a woman cannot afford to travel abroad to have an abortion, she will have to go the dangerous route. It's not that they don't know it's dangerous - it's that they oftentimes don't have another option or may not have been educated on this topic. Drinking alcohol is a leisurely activity - it's not going to matter much in the grand scheme or your life if you get drunk one weekend or not. However, having a child and keeping it or not is a decision that does affect a person through their entire life.

Also, many women in Poland are not educated on abortion as this is something that isn't discussed very much. You can't even have an abortion in Poland if you're unable to raise a child or a condom accidentally ripped during sex and you got pregnant. There aren't exactly lots of pamphlets available on these topics in health centers, family planning facilities, or gynecologists like there is in the US where a woman can obtain good non-biased scientific information. All a woman in Poland can really do is ask friends or read about the risks online - where of course she's going to run into a ton of biased sources. Perhaps if she is very poor and desperate and cannot afford to travel or afford a sympathetic doctor, she may willingly decide to do the abortion herself.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I've never been to school in Poland past 1st grade, but I'd imagine that the education is very much influenced by tradition and Roman Catholic values. I highly doubt that a modern approach is taken towards sex, drugs, alcohol and other things most high school students learn in health class. I don't think that family planning is given much time in the classrooms or condoms are given out.


You're comparing raising a cat to a child... two different things. Yes, both require responsibility and sacrifice but cat does not require clothing, an education, constant care, and so on. If someone loses their house or falls very ill, they can easily put their cat up online for adoption and chances are someone will take it in. As far as adoptions, we've seen that adoption rates are very low in Poland. Also, yes if I was a woman, a condom broke on me during sex and I found out I was pregnant then I most likely would chose an abortion as I am not ready to raise a child - especially if I was poor, in the middle of my education, had a bad job, the guy doesn't plan on being a real father, etc. Although your comparing a cat to a child, I wouldn't take a cat into my home either as I currently have a dog and that's already difficult enough to deal with when I'm travelling.


Not every girl wants to be a nun. Would you really marry someone without seeing if you're sexually compatible and that she isn't a cold fish in the bedroom? No thanks...

I think the biggest failure is the lack of proper sexual education, teaching why and how to use a condom, and providing condoms anonymously.

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


It's actually an ancient Roman salute...

Another example of free speech banned in the West - in Germany using this salute is punishable by up to 3 years in prison as are dozens of symbols including the Celtic Cross, certain runes but of course no ban on Al-Qaeda flags.

Food / Is brain-damaging vegan fad growing in Poland? [176]

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were actually one of the first groups to enact animal protection laws. Himler banned trapping and put severe restrictions on hunting while Goebels, a conservationist himself, described Hitler as a vegetarian.

Göring announced in a radio broadcast::

An absolute and permanent ban on vivisection is not only a necessary law to protect animals and to show sympathy with their pain, but it is also a law for humanity itself.... I have therefore announced the immediate prohibition of vivisection and have made the practice a punishable offense in Prussia.

PETA ought to be proud of their roots

That's fine... let the idiots eat that nasty vegan garbage. For every animal they don't eat, I'll eat three.

You guys in the EU are lucky though - you don't have the same processed garbage that we do in the US, Canada, and Mexico. Our food is straight up disgusting. Literally the meat and cheese especially just smells and tastes so much different in Europe than it does in N. America. Like you can almost smell all the nasty chemicals in it.

I almost exclusively shop at Polish delis but still, it's not the same as the original.

Well it's lunch time. I think I'll have a delicious baby cow sandwich. (Veal calves are to my knowledge the only animal which hormones cannot be used on for any reason according to the USDA, although some farmers still put in hormone implants and then remove them prior to an inspection. However, antibiotics are not off limits. Still better than nothing though).

Food / Is brain-damaging vegan fad growing in Poland? [176]


I never said they were - I stated that they were some of first people to create animal welfare laws.


I know - I am only stating what Goring wrote in his private diary. He also wrote in his diary that Hitler planned to ban slaughterhouses once the war ended,


Actually no, the Nazis passed animal welfare laws both before they were the majority group in Parliament as well as after they were the only group in government. Many of the top Nazis, especially Hitler and Goring were legitimately concerned about animal rights.

community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960201&slug=2311809


Thanks Polson that's very nice of you but I was just joking. Although I do love bacon wrapped filet mignon as well as chicken, beef, veal, pork chops, fish, bison, turkey, etc. I honestly don't feel like I've had a good meal unless it has meat in it. The protein helps build muscle. I'd fell hungry all the time if all I ate was salad and tofu.

Also, tofu is nearly tasteless. I've tried tofu-turkey and tofu-bacon. It tastes nothing like the real thing. The only veggie food I really like actually is veggie burgers which is weird because I don't eat normal hamburgers (I think I've literally eaten maybe a dozen in my whole life) as ground beef grosses me out.

You can even get lion meat - exoticmeatmarkets.com/exoticmeats.html - it costs $5k for 4 ounces


No I don't live on a farm. Although I love animals, I wouldn't keep a cow as a pet but rather keep to provide food.

The 'guiltless grill' restaurants and vegans who say 'meat is murder' and criticize others for eating meat are the worst. Guiltless grill I mean really, so what I'm supposed to feel guilty for eating meat? They think that by only eating wheat grains and tofu that they're going to save the world and end cruelty to animals. Well actually, millions of animals each year are killed by white and soy bean combines each year. So the very same foods that they claim are so good for animal welfare actually results in millions of rabbits and other small animals having their heads crushed.

Food / Is brain-damaging vegan fad growing in Poland? [176]


Never said they did - I stated they were among the first to form animal welfare laws which groups like PETA fight for. PETA stands for People for Ethical Treatment of Animals


You don't have to be a vegetarian to put a dent into animal cruelty. Also, this is a practice that wouldn't end even if half the people in the world became vegetarians - for one you'd still have products and medicines being tested on animals. I think I'd rather have a new drug tested on a rat than a human being. I mean yeah it sucks, but it's a necessary evil. I'm not advocating cruelty to animals, far from it as I have pets and I love animals, but even other animals are cruel to each other. Ever see a cat catch a mouse? The cat tortures it for hours before it kills it. Also, some of the more extreme PETA types are against milking cows and many vegans are against drinking milk - but actually it's harmful for the cow if they aren't milked.

What are the pro's and con's though of being a vegan or even vegetarian? Vegetarian I can understand - there's hundreds of millions, perhaps even over 1 billion, vegetarians as many Hindus in India are vegetarians - plus add all the other vegetarians around the world.

Vegan though? I don't know that seems too difficult.

Here's a source arguing against vegan diets:
authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea
2 others -
empoweredsustenance.com/is-vegan-healthy
chriskresser.com/why-you-should-think-twice-about-vegetarian-and-vegan-diets

It looks like missing out on vitamins and minerals, especially b12, are the biggest concerns. However, it does state that blood pressure, diabetes, and cancer risk is lowered. I'd imagine that vegetarians probably have no issues with fiber intake either.

See in North America, it would probably be a good healthy choice to be vegetarian or maybe even vegan. Our food, especially our meat, is disgusting. Unless you buy it from a deli, farmer's market, or some specialty shop you're getting hormone infused, antibiotic, processed crap, and even the meat in specialty deli's isn't even close to the same as that in Europe. The food in the EU is just so much healthier and better tasting - even bland foods like yogurt.

Quite frankly, I just can't ever see myself giving up meat, nor do I really want to. If I gave up eating meat
for even a week, I'd probably eat like pasta, potatoes, rice, etc. and probably gain weight thanks to carbs and still feel hungry all the time. I work out pretty often and I usually do cardio only as a warmup and mainly do 2 sets of 5-7 reps with high weights. I don't take steroids or creatine - a protein based diet is my steroid haha.


Animals eat each other too - it's part of nature. I don't think a wolf or a bear would be quite as satisfied with a bowl of tofu than a plump dead deer.

I don't know, I just don't see much of a point to being vegan especially if Poland already has such wonderful food that isn't treated with hormones, antibiotics, and all sorts of other garbage like the food in N. America.

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]

I thought I'd share this -

euobserver.com/news/133337

Polish government promises constitutional reform

Poland's ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) has called for a public debate on updating the constitution, amid a bitter row over the government's attempts to reform the constitutional court.

President Andrzej Duda called the constitution a "work in progress" that reflected "times passed".

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


Again - I am just quoting the title... I didn't write this article or the opinions.

Personally, until the government does something about the ridiculous Polish bureaucracy and makes it easier to establish companies in Poland I really don't care about the Polish politicians' economic plans.

The farm one does affect me though in terms of selling my land - if that's what I decide to do in the future. I'd have to sell my land to a local Polish citizen who can prove will use it for agricultural purposes for 10 years and if I give it to a family member I have to prove they will also use it for agricultural purposes (or at least that's how I read the new law ... perhaps my interpretation is a bit incorrect I can speak, write, and understand Polish a lot better than read it especially when it comes to legal language) ... or the government will buy it if I can't find a buyer and pay me 'market price' which of course will be significantly less but that's fine. I can't even give my farm to my kids though. Then again, much in Poland is accomplished with bribes. I remember one time my grandma was driving down the street - and she spent time in the US so she had nice jewelry, nice clothes, and a bit of cash. Well, the cops pull her over and it says her occupation - rolnik (basically farmer). The cop laughs and calls his buddy over - 'Jurek, zobacz to, to jest rolnik'

I'll give you a quick example. Let's say that a hospital that receives money from the government wants to buy an MRI machine. Well, it's not as simple as say looking online, scheduling a meeting with a rep, and picking the machine/company that offers the best combination of price, quality, and service. Well, in Poland it's totally different. The purchasing manager has to basically type a report that they need a new MRI machine, explain why they need it, and list the specs that are required and purposes that it must serve - like i.e. an open seated one to appease people that may be claustrophobic and costs between $900k-$1 mil. Well, these specs are then given to companies who then submit a bid in a way - they basically say well we have this and this MRI machine that matches your specs. This list is then given to the hospital's purchasing manager and then submitted to the government because they're the ones that would pick which MRI machine gets bought - not the hospital. So usually, the government picks the cheapest one without as much regard to quality, ease of doing business, service, ease of use, etc.

This particular was meant to combat corruption and wasteful spending but it's created a crazy bureaucracy. I remember one kid who was studying Poland and got a scholarship. Great student, great kid. Well, one day he gets a letter that they won't be renewing his scholarship and that basically he's screwed. He writes to all these people and waits months for a reply. Finally, he gets a meeting scheduled with some guy who agrees that his scholarship was unfairly cut - he originally says that itll take a month or two to get an official decision from his boss. Well, the kid says he's already waited so long and wants to get back into school. The guy says he'll see what he can do - he ends up talking to his boss and within an hour has an answer - they reinstated the kids scholarship.

Starting a business is even worse - I thought incorporation was a pain in the butt till I saw Poland's laws - utterly ridiculous. If the government made Poland a more friendly place to open a business, not so much the economy, upholding of contract law, etc. but more so the crazy bureaucracy that has a lot of old Communist Soviet remnants, I would totally open up a business in Poland.