History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

Sorry. If you find any my statement outrageous I would gladly modify it to everyones satisfaction.But rules of forum allows to do it just in first few minuts,maybe they will change it? Still I do not understand what technical difference makes for Poles whether some lands had been captured by Hitler or Stalin.Was Stalin for them any worse than Hitler?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Sorry if I made mistake.But during large wars countries suppose to
call for mobilisation, don`t they? Was it initial army that USSR won
war with?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Nope.Mongols caused overwhelming defeat to united Polish-German army.They just lacked force to colonized it consumed by ferocious Russian welcome.


Sweden had many wars with Poland but ultimately were stoped by Russians from following expancion and colonization of Eastern Europe in Nothern war.
There also was their overwhelming defeat under Poltava by Peter the Great.


They invaded only because 3 million Polish army didn`t want to fight with Hitler.All the Polish commandment including president escaped abroad in the first days of War.Followed by most of army who run into Romania.Well, but Russians at least had moral right to protect Ukrainians and Belorussians from life under Hittler ethinc cleansings?


Ultimately they remembered that there should be not only UPA victims, but Stalin`s too.


Warsaw uprisal seems to be another controversy.The leaders of ``Polish government in excile`` as well as leader of Armiya Krayowa who organized uprisal called Polish citizens to fight with Stalin and Soviets.And scarried Poles that Russians are going to kill all the Catholic priests and forcebly convert all the Poles into orthodox christians.How would Stalin help to them if they supposed to attack him?


This is outrageous of course but Russia didn`t even exist yet and USSR was ruled not by ethnical Russians.So what is primary connestion to Russia and Russians? And I`m glad that now Poles have much better fertility rates then during communism and multiply in numbers instead desapear as a nation as it was under communists.And now Polish use drink much less vodka and much healthier.Now they not brainwashed and know their history very well as proves this forum and even believe they defeated Mongols.And their threads are not deleated from forum instantly for beign politically undesirable.And they do not have to go abroad to make some money for living where they often treated like /?%%%?/.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


But those are numbers, not names. But I`m not going to argue about any numbers.I have no doubts that ultranationalism could get horrible at times.Take for example Breivik.Fortunatly currently and for a while there is no Ukrainian terrorists or nationalist serial killers.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

I would be glad to know what do you think about hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians that have been sold in different countries as a slaves.Western governments seem to do little about it.What mechanism of prevention of such crimes could be implemented? Are Polish woman or men been sold in slavery?If not, how Polish government succeded to prevent it?

kyivpost/content/ukraine/border-service-polish-consular-officials-in-lutsk-helped-sell-ukrainian-women-into-sexual-slavery-abroad-311604.html?flavour=mobile

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


I do not read Polish well enough to do work reading all of it, and I do not argue that everything writen there is holy truth, but if I no

make mistake it contains only dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles.
But what I would be glad to see is NAME by NAME list of those many tens of thousand Poles who where kiled.Wikipedia states that such list suppose to exist.It would be perfect also if this list I mentioned has reference to government research team.

Also I would be glad to know when grieving relatives or Polish government opened the first memorial to all those innocent victims.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


This article mentions that some ``Number of Polish victims known by their names`` exist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_Volyn_tragedy

In the same time there is no reference for this statement. If they are known by their names there
should exist NAME by NAME list of victims.Was it ever published in Internet? If yes, could I get
link to it? Or at least there is mention in Internet that this list was ever published in writen form?
If yes, where exactly?
I suggest nobody had need to hide truth about UPA massacres.They never were allies of comunists
and fought against them.If Poles seem to be so much victimized after 70 years after events did they
try to create name by name list of victims back to 1945-1955? And open memoreal to the victims?
And did Polish comunist government tried to created some documented investigation of something
that happened and to create exact NAME by NAME list of victims? If yes, could you give some link
about it? Maybe I have trashy memory but I do not remember that during USSR or independent
Ukraine I would hear about some giant UPA massacres.And this forum is about arguments, not
emotions.If I don`t know some well known things, you have chance to explain them to me and to
everyone. I found planty of photos in Internet about Volyn massacre horrors.There is some sliced
bodies, tortured and killed children etc.I wonder who and for what reason ever did those photos?
It were UPA maradeurs who had high quality photocameras and professional photographers or
maybe scarred and massacred villagers did them? It is interesting that those photos survived
until scanners and judging by scanned immeges did not even turn yellow for 60-70 years.
I wander what was quality of phototape and photopaper that got in hands of those maradeurs in
1941-1943? Also I still have no explanation why Ukrainians created entire army while 2 millions
of Poles didn`t try to create any self-defence.And this taking in account that at least some mechanisms
of law protection should exist even under occupation for example what about usual police or local
government?


Here is a quote of Boletus


So now at least 4.And this is form dozen of users who according to profile are Poles and posted any meaningfull post.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


I didn`t write that all Poles dislike Russians and Ukrainians but it would be fool to deny that plenty of them do.Even some people on this thread recognized it.And only reason for some collective prejudice that I see, is foremost believe in genetical inferiority of Eastern Slavs and their genetical similarity in those negative traits to each outher.What yet reason for collective prejudice could exist yet? Do you want to say that some people seriously believe that majority of Ukrainians are educated from the cradle as ultranationalists and Polish-haters? Regardles the fact that 60% of Ukrainians do not speak Ukrainian in everyday life and obviously have no concern about Poles? Obviously not. Then only posibility for colletive prejudice is something genetical.From this follows increased interest to anything bad that Ukrainians may ever do.Which is not proportional to anything bad that more Western nations did.Sorry, but to deny it is just meaningless.


I`m very sorry about you relatives, but doesn`t is seem strange to you that on this thread already many people readily claimed that UPA soldiers killed their relatives.And one girl said the horses returned back home from forest with sliced body.I suggest that UPA soldiers sliced it with a swords and after tighted pieces to the horses. Another girl said some sope opera with Pole who commited suicide by intentionally runing into Ukrainians. Is there any realistic story? What was a percent of Poles who`s relatives suffered from UPA soldiers and probability for them appear on this thread simultaneously? And especially if we take in account that 70 years passed since then, memories smoothed and not everyone whoud want to describe such things? And I did NOT deny anything, I just asked questions. For some of them I still have no answer.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


In Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2000 year eddition on a clickable World
map it was reffered as part of Eastern Europe.I still didn``t see any Western
geographical atlas on which it would be part of Western Europe.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Geographically Poland is still part of Eastern Europe.
Are Poles treated in more Western countries as someyhing equal to local
population?Some Pole on this forum mentioned that plenty of people still
treat them as ``an Asian hordes``.


Did I make citation of you thread?I didn`t make any reference to it.I didn`t address my expression to
any particular person on this forum.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Even if majority of Ukrainains do not really care who was Bandera and do not want to (and I do not see why they have to), and some politicians try to use his name in political speculations, shouldn`t Polish mass media be clever and not engage in a childish fight?I understend, of course, it could be outrageous according to their beliefs but still it is not in Poland where they want to name something but in Ukraine.Why should Poles care too much about it?If Georgians would install monument to Stalin they will take it as a personal abuse too? Mention of Bandera from Polish side could only damage relations between nations and/or hurt Ukrainian national idea at present stage.Let`s wait for another 60 years and history will ultimately draw the last line.

I still not completely aware why OUN/UPA soldiers should be reffered in Polish history books or mass media as ``Ukrainians``. There was never in history Ukrainian state until 1991.Did Polish government officially used word ``Ukrainians`` in 1939? Wasn`t ``Ruthenians`` officially accepted name?The version of Ukrainian language they spoke in Galitsia was/is rather dialect of Polish.It is not exacly modern Ukrainian official laguage. Certainly they have lots of Polish blood too. Why they have lot in common with rest of Ukraine (60 % of whom do not even speak Ukrainian in everyday life)? So maybe Poles will call them ``Ruthenian Insergent Army`` istead? And also will not forget to mention in history books that there is many unknown circumstances and some of them are disputed?Some guy on this forum mentioned that books in Toronto Polish bookstores are full of that hatefull staff.Maybe some will put poster on doors of bookstore with explanation that everithing in those books shouldn`t be taken as granted?

I still do not understand idea of some Poles: ``we will not friend with you beacause some Ruthenians/Ukrainians did something bad
to our ancestors 70-700 years ago. Or Russians ocupied our country 44 years``. Well, Mongols ocupied other countries for hudreds of years, war waged by German Nizies lead to death of 30+ millions of people, English and French waged Hundred Years' War with each other. And what should be now done to all of them ???!!!


How than you would also explain expression of:

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Who is American, what are you talking about?

Could they remove CIA spies (those Protestants who suffered from ``Ukrainian bolsheviks``) from this forum?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

Could you give me any link in Internet to mention
that Eastern Slavs experience any problems with
integration or assimilation in any Western country
or that some Western leader would ever told it?
and if Poles are different then what about Hungarians,
Slovakians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Lithuanians,
Croatians, Serbians? Who of them is ``westerner``
and who is not?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Could you discribe this divide in as more as possible concrete examples?
Personally, as Ukrainian I communicated with some Poles and found nothing in them
that would make me feal culturally inferior near them.On my mind they are rather
typical Slavs in both appearence and some aspects of behavour.
I would be glad to know if you are Polish or American/Westerner.If you are non-Polish
how could you know deeply about such things?And in which Western country Ukrainians
and Russians ever experienced problem with assimilation?Where did you hear that?
The largest comunity of Ukrainians live in Canada - 1.3 millions of people.Do they experience
any problems with assimilation or cultural shock there?Never heard of that...

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Never mind.Sorry for a stupid question.


Language similarities almost always match with genetical similarities unless language is borrowed or genetics is hightly intermixed.
But for a well known reasons it is not a case with Poles and Russians.Baltic and Slavic languages separated few thousnds of years ago as well as ethnicities who spoke those languages.Polish and Russian separated much later as well as tribes who later converted

into Poles and Russians.There is nothing unbeliavable in a fact that Russians and Poles are genetically closer than Poles and Latvians.Distance between people dosn`t always matter.It`s all about migration of people.I advise you to read some basic info on this account.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


The article is in Russian?It gives refference only to credible Western scientists such as John Novembre of the University of California, Los Angeles, and Carlos Bustamante, senior author and statistical geneticist at Cornell University.

If you want you could try to find their original works with details published in Internet or somewhere else. Maybe I will do it later.


Some people need to take lessons of basic ethnography and lingustis.Lithuanian and Latvian languages are not even closely related to Polish, those are Baltic languages, not Slavic.Why genetics should be very similar? Some Russians who live in Vladivostok which something like 10.000 kilometers away could be more genetically similar to Polish than they do.And Belarus was not even shown on the map (what mistake did you do again?).

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Were is it writen? In article that I linked on this forum nothing said about it.To those who do not know geography I will tell that tiny Kaliningrad region is only border between Poland and Russia and with rest of Russia Poland is separated with 1 thousand of kilometers distance.


The fact that Russia is large has nothing to do with genetical differences between ethnical Russians and other Slavs.Russia was populated in historically short times. Presence of admixtures in some ethnicity does not mean that we cannot talk about genetics of original ethnicity though there is never such thing as a ``pure`` ethicity.The fact that Barak Obama has some Irish ancestry ancestry does not mean that all Irish look like Obama or are all mixed. As I know, ethnical Tatars are themself very diverse ethnical group.They range from blond Indo-Europeans to Mongoloid with the latest constituting small minority.One example of ethnical Tatar from Ukraine is Rinat Akhmetov. I do not know about all of Russia but in Ukraine according to my personal calculation and observances approximately 1/3 of population are blond, 1/3 are light haired and 1/3 are dark brown or brunette.And take in account that dark pigmintation is dominant, so if only one of your granfathetrs is brunet you are also likely to be a brunette.If you will look at this map: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Light_hair_coloration_map.png?uselang=ru

you will see that large parts of Russia have larger persantage of blond people than Germany with rest of European Russia and Ukraine having approximately the same amount.And defenetly larger than among French.In any case among 150 millions of Russians number of Slavs with very small Tatar admixtures is defenatly larger than totan number of Poles.Would you discard all of them for being Russian? And would you claim that among ethical Poles people with major non-European admixures are rarity?There is large number of Poles with dark hair and easily-tanned skin. For example compare Joseph Pilsudski and Kopernicus with Vladimir Putin and Anna Kurnikova.Your imagination about Russians are based on millenium Polish stereotipes, including movies and posters.Something similar to this (make larger image)

I forgot to mention that among 150 millions of Russian I mentioned, 111 millions live in Russia proper and
rest in different countries.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

Thank you! I didn`t understand you correctly. But I`m still curios to know
why exacly to be Catholic is more natural for a Slavs than to be a Protestant?
Are some confessions are more ``natural`` for a Slavs than other?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

Hey, Sofijufka! I`m really sorry and appologise if I understood you in wrong way.Please do not take it seriously. Pardon!
It is just you expression that agreement about permanent mutual cease-fire between Poles and Ukrainians is impossible.Why should it have been impossible for a reasonable people?And sorry I didn`t understood why somebody


suppose to be mute about ethnical cleansing. Do some trials suppose to be set? Do some reparations suppose to follow? Do some hystorical lessons supposed to be learned that had not been learned by all reasonable Ukrainians and Poles? Does it imply that Ukrainians are genetically inclined to kill Poles and should be fenced from them with the grates or discriminated? Or that those event have some chances to reoccur in any foreseable future? If your answer is no for all of those questions, then what is any sense in all those talks?It`s good to undersand history for a people, but try to understand Ukrainian mentality.For majority of them something that happened 70 years ago is quite a while a wile ago and they will not become obssessed with it.Even those who will take it in their heads may not believe it or try to dispute it.People are inclined to idealize past of their countries. But shouldn`t Polish government be clever and at least prohibit mention of any pictureque attrocities? And why Ukrainians should feel themself guilty so much if those attrocities were mutual, exact numbers are unknown, no any trial have been held and there is many black spots?Do not you see that all this could only damage relations?


As I know approximately 2 millions of Poles lived in Western Ukraine back then. Wasn`t it a bit suicidal idea to wage full scale war against them? Do UPA leader hoped to kill or scarry all of them?And they didn`t even expect that Poles may organize and fight back?What exactly weapon UPA soldiers had and where did they take it as well as ammunition?And why 2 millions of Poles didn`t orgasnize to fight back after first few thousands of Poles have been killed? Did they allowed to massacre them like a sheeps?

Could not they get the same weapon as UPA soldiers did? From what I could conclude that UPA was mentally sick.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


That`s good. And what? Did I imply that Poland suppose to ban comunication with its Western neigbours or any other countries?
Or stop any future exchange of ideas?In times of Internet there is no borders for ideas exchange unles it is not banned. The question is how Slavic countries could fruitfully cooperate with each other. And help to develop each other. And also eliminate unnecessary conflicts.This is only my concern.


Actually are you Pole as you claimed before? I need to inform you that overheming majority of Poles are Catholics, not Protestants...

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


You do not think it`s possible or you do not want it happen?From your post I assume that you do not want
.What is concerning to glorification of UPA, who exactly glorify them? I`m quite sure that vast majority of Ukrainian population are against of it. (though there is a promlem that many people in Ukraine do not know who are UPA at all).This is why Polish government could find language with them and political parties who represent them. I think that at least both govenments could outlaw mention of


atrocities in books,cinema, newspapers and radio.If some mentally concerned people want to do it they still have Internet forums where their statements could be at least diputed. I do not understand how mentally normal person could be very concerned with something that was commited 70 years ago by insignificant, mentally troubled part of entire population and believe that those Nazi collaborators represented all Ukrainians.


If you talk about ``ethnical cleansing`` then could you give exact definition of ethisity? The events happened in Westernmost part of Ukraine which at least 500 years was under rule of Poles.There was very many blood intermixing for that time and I woudn`t even wonder if blood of those Ukrainians was mostly Polish.This if we could talk about intermixing at all because Poles and ``Ruthenians`` descended from common root in historically perceivable times.What genetic expertise could show certain difference between Pole and Ukrainian?There was not even officially word ``Ukraine`` few hundreds years ago. Many, if not most of those Ukrainans from Galitsia and Volyn regions were able more or less speak Polish and very many were Catholics.

For example soldiers of division SS ``Galichina`` were protected by Vatican from surrendering them to USSR as a ``good Catholics``.
And if inhabitants Polish state territory were not able to find common language why do you sure that it is something between differnt races of people (at least from objective point of view).Do you believe that Ukrainians are genetically predipositioned to kill Poles?Or they are inferior?If not then what is a sense in all those talks?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


If Poland have some problem with Russian leaders let`s them invent reasons to apply in European
court against of Putin or Russian oligarchs or Mikhail Gorbochov (if they need alive Soviet leader)
and not set tme meaningless lawsuits agains ``all of Russia`` for some things that happened 73 years ago in already non-existant
country. Sorry, but douter of Josef Stalin (with her millions) lived in U.K. Son of Nikita Kruschev in U.S.,
Mickail Gorbochov with his family in Germany and many other Western countries.All Russian oligarkhs have
property in Western countries.And many other high-ranked former Soviet leaders have luxury lifestile there.
Nobody bothers them with any lawsuits of investigations.And local govornments make all the security mesures that not even a single hair would fall from their head.And that local ``cattle`` would not even dare to bother them.Instad they involve very old, traumatized people whom they tell they will get trillions dollars from Russia.After obvous fail of it, soccer fans start to run on the streets, smash woman, children, men, whoever they see before them. Do not it look stupid to you?

I hope that such people (who accordin to wikipedia did exact evaluation of of Ukrainian I-t Army victim numbers) as Niall Ferguson, Rossolinski-Liebe and John P. Himka are Poles.

To sofijufka: I watched Zalizn Sotnia a bit. I agee that movie is stupid.But it doesn`t even look serious to me.There is rather some black humor elements.But, do not you think that Polish and Ukrainian governments should make mutual agreement about avoiding mentions of each other atrocities? Woudn`t it be a best solution at present stage of relations?

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

I do not honesly, care...

And why shoud Poles care about Latin? This is exinct language. And also majority of Nothern Europeans are Protestants
and not a Catholics. Would you claim Poland should have ties with Latin America? Typical Americans were WASP long ago...

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]

To Meathead:
I do not answer to people who do not know history and intudes in threads they do not belong to.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


An interesting question.Separation of One Christian church which was officialy rulled by Roman Popes to which originally beloned both Poles and Russians happened step by step in 11-th century.The main atogonists were Rome and Constantinopole.Russia didn`t take either side for a some periode of time.Ultimately it went to Constantinopole camp.But could you imagine Russian pop (priest) in remote village who speaks Latin?Why would they need it?

The threat is dedicated to Poles, Russians,Ukrainians.
All about Romney and Marchall get out.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Needs to take history lessons.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


I have hard time to answer.


Quite possibly.Czech migrated in Central Europe from territory of modern Ukraine
around 1.5 thousands years ago.There is some interesting coincidences between
Ukrainian and Czech words.While Polish lanuage started to form ultimately as a
separate language a bit over 1000 years ago.Before that it probably constitutes a language
which later splited into Western Polian and Eastern Polian language.Those later
deviated a bit in basic vocabulary and accepted many new words both invented and
borrowed and turned into Polish and Russian.You wan`t believe, but sometimes a Pole
could tell to somebody that Polish and Russian is the almost the same language.
Seriously.Some French-speaking woman with whom I did language exchange and
who studied Russian told me that some Pole wanted to do language exchange with
her too and told to her that this is practically the same languages.
But for now, of course, Russian and Polish are very difficult to understand mutually.
I`m not very obssessed with nationalities and also think it is not only important who
we are but also who could we become.
Also I may propose creation if international society of mutual interSlavic help in
which Slavic people who do not experience ethinical hate to each other would
communicate,study Slavic cultures and of course help each other materially.
I suggest that help of course should be mutual.
Also Union of Slavic states is unlikely in nearest perspective, private divisons
of such society could function in developed countries.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


I`m affraid it would be difficult to me to cover entire scope of Ukrainian society.Personally I never heard Ukrainians to talk something about Poles.Ukrainans do not seem to be concerned to much about them particulary.My mother sometimes say something they are ``gonorovy`` and ``szlachetny``. In general it is assumed that Poles dislike Ukrainians and from childhood I remembered that in old times they called Ukrainians ``krvi psa`` and

``bydło``. Most of Ukrainians know from Gogol novels which they study in school that treatment of Ukrainians by Poles at times was very cruel. Recently I read comments of some modern Western Ukrainian (who seem to be worked for a Pole employer) that Pole will never treat Ukrainian as something equel to them. But among my personal known people I didn`t know someone who would work in Poland and therefore no converstion about them.What is concerning to my personal imagination from movies and cominication I find Polish society a bit boring.Majority of Ukrainians know that poles belong to Slavic culture and at times USSR it wasn`t even considered to be a completely abroad.I think it is assumed that Poles not against to drink a bit vodka sometimes.In Russia Poles are often associated as invadors who captured Moscow in 1611 and caused Times of troubles.There is some movies about it. But in general I didn`t hear something particulary bad about them.But you have to understand that Poles rarely visit Ukraine and Russia and contacts are very limited.

History / Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians? [281]


Bud did not Greece acceptepted Marchall plan too?And where is it now?
Proverb says: more haste - less spead.