Life / Do young Polish people believe in their religion and God? [155]


Yes, I am well aware of that :) but some countries do have an official state religion which is why I mentioned it :)

Life / Do young Polish people believe in their religion and God? [155]


Some Ukrainians are.

It's a stupid post from the OP anyway. Just because someone is born into a country with an official state religion doesn't automatically follow that they are "believers" and in my opinion it's not about faith or belief but indoctrination.

UK, Ireland / Polish cities and their UK twins [19]

Grangemouth oil refinery is just up the coast from Edinburgh, not as close to the centre as Nowa Huta is to Kraków but near enough for this purpose ;)

UK, Ireland / Polish cities and their UK twins [19]

Huddersfield is twinned with Bielsko Biała and are well matched. Population numbers are very similar, traditional industries similar and both towns and located in hilly regions of their respective countries.

Language / Foreigners speaking Polish - examples. [61]


She's a big animal rights activist too :)

Life / What's wrong with Poland? I don't see anything. [121]


I would define helping Poland as doing voluntary work without personal gain rather than actually working in Poland for pay and personal gain. I would also define helping Poland as not denying your heritage, being proud of your roots and helping to keep the traditions alive; when Poland was under foreign occupation this was particularly important, especially the teaching of the Polish language.

News / THE ARMY OF POLAND - THE REALITY [493]


I think we have enough problems with football hooligans without giving them military training for two years :D

Genealogy / Common surnames in Poland NOT of Polish origin ? [87]

A girl I know from Wrocław has the surname Sołtys. I wonder if she knows her surname has Germanic origins? lol

Genealogy / Common surnames in Poland NOT of Polish origin ? [87]

One of the most well known must be Miller. I don't know how prevalent the name is in Poland but it's definitely not of Polish origin.

Life / The Polish Wedding - What is it Like in Poland? [338]


Depends on how well you know them and what you'd be prepared to spend on a present if you were to buy one and obviously what you can afford. At the end of the day it's your gift and it should be private between you and the bride & groom so as long as you're not too stingy or over generous then no one else should know how much you gave them.

There's a thread here related to what you just asked. Have a read and see if that helps
polishforums.com/society-culture-38/wedding-present-polish-friends-much-money-should-give-53530

Genealogy / Are Silesians people German/Germanic? [178]

Silesia also extends into Czech territory too. Czech out the Wikipedia article on Silesia to get more background.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

As you well know Harry the quote is here. The quote is lifted from an article written by Professor Tomasz Strzembosz the link which I provided earlier and it is here: yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205416.pdf

The quote is on page 4 of the article and the quote is properly referenced at the foot of page 4 giving the book title, publisher and page number. This is common practice in academic studies Harry, accepted by every university around the world, but for some reason it's not good enough for you, the reason being that you are unable to prove your claim the Gross was quoted out of context or that he didn't even write it.

You were quite happy to post a link to Israel Gutman's response and critique to Professor Strembosz's article,

yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%204797.pdf

which was first written in Polish and translated into English yet you refuse to accept the words of Jan T Gross quoted by Professor Strembosz whose article was also translated by the same person who translated Gutman's article.

Like I said in a previous post, when you are so sure of yourself you very quickly provide links to back yourself up yet when you have been found out to be making statements you can't support you try to change the subject, you accuse people of lying and you resort to personal insults. It is a common trend ever since you first started posting here, don't you just love archives :)

I gave you a chance to give me your personal definition of "approximately", to set the parameters either side of the 100,000 figure you used about Jewish personnel in the Polish Army in 1939 but for some reason you're avoiding this simple request too. Why? Is it because you don't like arguing on solid ground, because you like to be able to change the goalposts when you have been caught out? Here it is again Harry


You don't say "around 100,000, you don't say "an estimated 100,000", you don't say "approximately 100,000" - that comes in a later post but then you say the approximate part is not your word but that of Yad Vashem - you say "the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army". I will accept your revised position of "approximately 100,000", after all when a man admits he is wrong we should be big enough give him credit for doing so, therefore I can see that you know your claim of "the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army" is wrong which is why you then further qualified the 100,000 figure as only being an approximation. So in order to take this debate further forward I politely asked you to set the parameters either side of this approximated figure of 100,000. Again, polite request, set the parameters either side of the 100,000. You can set the figures in 100s, 1000s or as a percentage, you choose. You first brought the figure of 100,000 and also then brought the word approximately so over to you once again Harry.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

You then go on to say approximately. So as well as refusing to back up your claim that Gross wouldn't say what he wrote and it was taken out of context, you now refuse to define what you think is meant by approximate. You are so quick to provide links when you are sure of yourself as you do here and that is a thread started only a few hours ago. I asked you 3 days ago to back up your words that Gross's work was being quoted out of context and still you are unable to do so and we know why you are unable to do so because you can't. If you were so certain of your words you would have proven to me long ago just as you have been so quick and so happy to disparage monia on the other thread. You've been proved to be wrong in your claims, your false claim - should I play your game Harry and call you a liar? Nah, I won't because i don't have to stoop to your level. Now, what margin for error either side of the 100,000 figure would you take "approximately" to mean?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


I quoted your quote and nowhere before you posted that did you say that you were quoting Yad Vashem. The link you posted at the bottom of your post here polishforums.com/history-poland-34/poles-owe-jews-60402/7/# msgmsg1283733 which is from Yad Vashem, and on that page it is claimed that the figure is over 100,000, nowhere is the word approximate used.

I am enquiring about your use use of the term "approximate" because in an earlier post here polishforums.com/history-poland-34/poles-owe-jews-60402/7/# msg1283609 you said it was a fact that the figure was exactly 100,000. I am trying to determine whether in your opinion it is a fact that the figure of 100,000 is a cast iron certainty or if in the space of a few posts you are having doubts about your claim that is was a fact or not as you posted a quote and a link where you contradict yourself. You say "fact" it was 100,000, then you say "approximately" but the link you posted says "over 100,000". Therefore having raised doubts in my mind what you are actually meaning, I asked you


So whether it is you using the word "approximately" Yad Vashem, the man in the moon or whoever, you quoted the word so therefore I am asking you, in your opinion, what margin for error either way of the 100,000 figure would you define the bands of approximation?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Wow. That was a quick response Harry, pity you can't provide a link to your lie that Gross never wrote what he did in his book and that he was being quoted out of context. Of the pre war population of Poland around 10% of the population claimed Jewish etnicity


Just quoting you here Harry so we know we are both agreed that 10% of the Polish population was of Jewish etnicity. When you say approximately, what margin for error either way is there in this approximate figure?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Please provide links to validate your statistical claims highlighted in bold and also provide a link to evidence to validate your claim that Gross has been quoted out of context.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


Gross has his works published in both Polish and English as I am sure you are more than aware of. You are the one who has claimed it is only a Polish work. As Gross is fluent in both Polish and English I think he is more than capable of writing his own words equally well in both languages without the need for a translator. So, once again, show me proof to back up your comment.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


Let's get over this one point and I will be more than happy to address many of the other points you have raised, I'll even let you choose which one we can tackle next but in the meantime, provide me with evidence to back up your statement, a statement that you made when you claimed you knew where the quote was from so thereofre no further need for me to prove to you that it was written by Gross as you have already acknowledged the fact. You were very quick to say you knew where it was from then go on to say it was taken out of context so therefore you must know this book very well to have made such a statement. Your words Harry, there for all to see. So what is it, you know the book well or you don't? You can back your statement up or you can't?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

No Harry, the onus is on you to show that your statement is true. I am not doing your work for you. By refusing to back your statement up it is safe to assume you already know you it not to be true. Twist and turn as much as you like, try and divert attention to other issues as much as you like, you need to prove that the statement you made about what Gross wrote being taken out of context is true. If you are unable to do that then it is glaringly obvious that you know what you wrote to be false.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Harry, you made the claim that Gross is being quoted out of context and it is something he wouldn't say. Prove that your claim has credibility. Stop trying to change the subject all the time. If you are so confident that your statement is true then show us the evidence to back it up.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205416.pdf
If this excerpt from the book isn't true do you really think that Yad Vashem would have it on its site?

Now you can prevaricate and obfuscate as much as you want Harry but you still haven't shown to me


. Show me the evidence.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

This thread went way off topic a long time ago. I am not disputing what you say about the ND's as I am of the same opinion but it would be a lot easier if you provided links to back things up. It saves a lot of arguments :)

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

There you go again Harry, distorting things to suit your own twisted reality. The only person here who thinks I am a liar is you. You're not even consistent with your arguments and the very fact that you cannot even provide any proof that Jan T Gross's writing has been taken out of context further goes to prove that your ramblings are your own personal opinions. Provide me with proof that what Gross wrote has been taken out of context, your fragile credibility could be strengthened somewhat if you can carry out this one piece of information.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

I wonder if that would work if you were doing a degree - "if you want references try Google". I would have thought that when someone is making a claim about something then in order to prove they knew what they were talking about then a link should be provided eg when Harry said this


he failed to provide any evidence to back this up. So if you have evidence about the NDs in pre war Poland being motivated by racism or anti Semitism then you should provide evidence to back up your statement. If you say it's readily available via a Google search then I'm sure you will have no trouble providing us with links just as I am sure Harry should have no trouble providing me with a link proving that what Gross wrote in his book was being quoted out of context. :)

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


ROFLMFAO Harry, if you knew where the quote was from you wouldn't have attacked me the way you did. You, my friend, have been caught out once again. I deliberately didn't use quote marks because I knew you would jump straight down my throat with a response claiming I was lying and true to form that is exactly what you did. Just as John Morrison didn't use quote marks when he posted his compilation of witness statements.

Now lets get back to other things, have you any idea what a summary is? Let me help you on this one. A summary, synopsis, or recap is a shorter version of the original. Such a simplification highlights the major points from the much longer subject, such as a text, speech, film, or event. The purpose is to help the audience get the gist in a short period of time.

The article: kamunikat.fontel.net/www/czasopisy/bzh/07/07art_wierzbicki.htm
is a 7,728 word document which details the events of the Skidel uprising, it states quite clearly who the participants were, it even gives the names of some of the main protagonists, yet you choose to quote a 67 word summary because that suits your blinkered view point. Or is it because the summary is in English and you don't understand Polish?

Don't go away Harry, I'm just getting warmed up :)

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Oh, I'm sorry Harry, I forgot to put my last post in quote marks and credit the author for his work.

That quote is from W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska-Rosja 1939-1942. The Author is Professor Jan T Gross, I am sure you have heard of him. I found that quote while researching the online archives about Polish-Jewish relations which are on the Yad Vashem site. You have heard of Yad Vashem I assume Harry?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews. Groups of Jews, sometimes quite large, did so in public in almost every locality taken over by the Soviet troops. Usually, they comprised youth and the poor, and among the Jews there were plenty of these, since poverty and high birth rate go together. Many enthusiastic supporters of the new regime showed up. Their numbers were sufficiently large to leave a lasting impression on the memory of not only Poles and the Ukrainians – whose testimonies can be suspected of lack of objectivity. The Jews themselves noticed their stupidity with the benefit of hindsight, writing that in the first period of the occupation their relations with the new arrivals from the East turned out very well.......

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


Those quotes are not from John Morrison, like I have said time and time again, he compiled a dossier of work from several sources and posted them on that Facebook page. He may not have been from Eastern Poland but his grandfather was.


1) I didn't leave out the statement, it was and still is there for all to see, apart form you of course. Selective vision?
2) Considering the length of some of your posts I don't think it is necessary to quote a whole post when it is very easy for people to scroll back and see your entire post from which I am quoting.

I have no need to misrepresent you Harry, you do a good job of doing that on your own

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


That would be me and subsequently you decided to copy me when your lies and half truths are then challenged and backed up with evidence.


Neither of us. Those terms were used by people writing their memoirs of their lives in Eastern Poland after the Red Army invaded on September 17th 1939.


Again, something I haven't said. I do believe it was you who actually "cherry picked" that line, firstly accusing the compiler of statements an anti Semite and subsequently me.


Really? My Jewish friends don't have any problems with anything I post on here. The only person who sees anti Semitism and bigotry in anything I post is you.


I'm afraid you don't help yourself Harry. You have posted many things in an attempt to discredit Poland yet will only back peddle when challenged and you have been proved to be wrong or you have found to be economical with the truth. I posted a small sample of quotes from the archives, there are many, many more I could have used but you carry on Harry, at least I can back my posts up with evidence, links, peer reviewed studies etc etc I eagerly await the next round of discourse.

PS I forgot to post this classic backtrack from Harry. First he claims no mention of Jews but in his very next post when it is pointed out to him that there are several references to Jewish proliteriat in the body of the referenced work his classic response is

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

There you go again Harry, the only defence you have when you get shown up to be wrong is to make unfounded accusations and hurl insults. Just goes to show how weak your arguments are if that is what you have to resort to.

The source as linked in the Wikipedia article is here


kamunikat.fontel.net/www/czasopisy/bzh/07/07art_wierzbicki.htm

There is more than one reference to "Jewish proliteriat" as being actively involved in the insurrection against Polish forces. Try reading the entire article and not just the bit that suits your argument.