Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Koala


I completely agree with you. I took a drinking walk to several pubs in Cambridge and was fraternizing with the locals, most of them being English teachers. Once I wanted to be witty and addressed one of the ladies with "Oi!" This was really a blunder...

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


I cannot hide my smirk listening the Dutch "v" pronounced as "f" when English is spoken. Oh, a "fessel" sounds so funny! ;)

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]

Havok, it's spelled "the artist formerly known as Prince" ;-))))

Sure, everyone can demand proper spelling. Then I would give less discount to such a company ;-)

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]


Come on... Microsoft Windows supports all languages. However, somebody working hard and fast saves time by just typing given name quickly using English characters. If I were to type something in Czech, I'd have to switch to the Czech keyboard (and not having the physical Czech keyboard, I'd have to use the "screen keyboard", which is painful). Or, to use the Character Map. Why should I do it?

Many Polish friends of mine staying abroad just chat with me in Polish using only Latin characters and we understand one another perfectly. I work in a English-speaking company and we address our Polish clients not using diacritical characters. Nobody complains. I think our sales area is 16 countries in Scandinavia and East Europe. Everybody's getting same from me - a Norwegian, Finnish or a Croat will be addressed only in Latin.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


The problem is: If one wants to learn English from a native speaker, ask yourself a question from what country/region ;-) I once was trained by a Scouser who admitted himself English was his second language. I was getting maximum 40% of what he was saying ;-)

My spoken English quality varies with the weather and depends what country/region was the person with whom I spoke lately. My curse is adaptiveness... At the top form my English is totally accent-less. If this happens, I'm so glad...


Strè prst skrz krk, I like the language very much, too.

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]

What problem is this really? This is transcription. Due to historical reasons, typing Polish names using only English characters is not really different than transliterating Russian names into Latin.

My feeling is, most Poles give a damn to it. Most of e-mail systems disallow anything than English characters in the message subject, too.

Language / Too many English words in the Polish language! [709]

And this is how we do not declense the name of the actor Bruce Lee:

To jest brusli
Nie ma brusliego
Robię kawę brusliemu
Widzę brusliego
Mówię o bruslim
Rozmawiam z bruslim
Brusli, cho no tu ;-)
Nie ma czegoś takiego jak brusliowie
Nie ma bruslich!
Nie widzę żadnych bruslich
Nie mówię o bruslich, bo ich nie ma
Nie rozmawiam z bruslimi bo nie istnieją
Brusliowie, Was nie ma! ;-)))))))))))))))))))))

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]


Yep.

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]


Source: projektwarszawiak.pl

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]

Aaaarrrrgh! ;-))
Look up the edited post above.

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]

I need go back to the blackboard ;-)))))))))))))

"Past za vlast"... sure!
--
The post exchange between me and Magdalena could help the original poster understand how difficult a language with no borrowed words is. Just to extinguish the Czech debate, I'd like to ask Magdalena if a native Warsawer could master Czech.

What you think about the language here? What proficiency can you hear?

nk.art.pl/makenzen/makenzen_zatimco.mp3

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]

Tough language! My feeling is using words borrowed from Latin/Greek makes life somewhat easier, still I understand the idea behind the formal Czech.

Mluvnice - Mównica/rostrum? Rzeczniczka/speaker?
Zákon - prawo/law
Přírodopis - biology! Now I get it!
Vlastenec - I saw this word somewhere in Svejk... Vlast would be the power, government. No idea, I would guess from context.

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]

I will try and swear I do not look to any dictionary or any translator now:
Pravopis - prawodawca
Krasopis - not sure
Životopis - autor biografii
Zeměpis - autor książek o różnych krajach? Not sure here
Divadlo - teatr
Spisovatel - pisarz
Těsnopis - no idea
Kolo - rower. The Czech word is very logical. I don't know why Polish kolarz rides a rower ;-)

What I would like to get the most would be "cena divaku" and the introduction to a seminar "Vazeny Damy a Panove" is just fantastic!

You must know this, I experienced this myself:

A Polish leads the Czech to sklep but the Czech thinks it would be a pivnice. No, but wine is stored in a Polish piwnica, and the Czech buys at sklad. We Polish store coal at skład. The shop sells "smiseny zbozi" in the Czech Republic, same shop offers "ruzny tovar" in Slovakia, and the Polish goes to "sklep spożywczo-przemysłowy. A Pole parks his car at a parking, the Czech uses parkoviste and teh Slovak parkovisko. If I wanted to say do widzenia to you Magdalena, I'd start with dovid... then bite my tongue and say nashledanou! ;-)

It's at least good I can buy struny both in your country and in Poland, although I'd better know they could be motane or hladke ;)))

Nice thing you told me about the difference between the informal and folk Czech. I was not aware of that.

Ahoj!

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]

My personal (not scientific) opinion is the invented words are really needed for nations afraid of dissolving their identity. Old, mature languages are developing by merging foreign words. Just consider:

1. Metal (it should be kowo)
2. Stal (it should be ocel)
3. Butelka (it should be łagiew)
4. Dach (it should be strzecha)
5. Pech (it should be nieszczęście (?))
6. Giermek (actually it is a child in Hungarian)
...

If by chance Magdalena is reading this thread, I'd like to know her opinion on how it is in the formal and the folk Czech. It could be interesting. I was very happy to buy "camelky" (Camel cigarettes), listening to "cedecky" (CDs) and paying with "kreditka" (credit card) on my stays in the Czech Republic.

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]

Magdalena, the further rant is pointless. I have gone through numerous posts of yours under another thread and I'm impressed with your Polish capabilities. The only unfortunate point you've made about "authenticity" of p-w and your risky claim that specifically a person born/bred in Warsaw would really appreciate the trueness of the project made me over-react. Comments of my Warsaw friends related to p-w are like: "Słuchałam tego, z butów nie wyrywa". "Kaszana". "Kupa". That's it, although the project may be liked by many, and as I said, the hype is there.

My personal distaste results from the fact when I listen/watch the p-w, I feel as if I, a Warsawer, were threatened by those pathetic warszawka people. I nóż mi się w kieszeni otwiera. A oni śpiewają "możesz mi w mordę dać". Z przyjemnością bym to zrobił. Takie są moje osobiste uczucia i tyle.

Naprawdę serdecznie Panią pozdrawiam i nie kłóćmy się już.

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]

To start with, you are not Polish Magdalena, and not a Warszawiak either. I've been greatly interested in Upper Silesian matters for last couple of years myself. Yet, I do not even attempt speak "ślonsko godka" since it would be phoney and extremely badly received by the Ślonzoki. So many gorols living there CAN "godoć", still ask them a direct question and they will instantly admit they are gorol. No sane gorol would ever say he or she were hanys.

Due to its history, Warsaw is somewhat different. The best Warsaw songs were made by people not born there. Once a person proves he/she is a Warsawer, that is, he or she can broadcast thoughts at real Warszawiak wavelength, such person is considered a Warszawiak. The fact of living in Warsaw regardless how long does not make one a Warszawiak. Besides, consider Easter time. Warsaw is left "dla warszawiaków", "warszawka" leaves the city.

I don't say you have no right to perceive yourself as a warszawianka. I do not say you're ignorant. Many of the remarks I made (such as ones on mojra and dintojra) are for other people reading this thread. Please do not take everything personally. You'd said "Discuss". You are getting the discussion; unless you'd just expected applause for p-w.

There is a kind of warszawiak talking (you can read it in Tyrmand's "Dziennik 1954"). Warsaw talk is fast, often smartly offending the other person without real offence. A warszawiak knows how to brilliantly answer the similar way. There is also local feature called "zaskok" (kind of Warsaw esprit). My quote from "Bal na Gnojnej" would be read as an excellent response by a person with "zaskok" since it:

1. Refers to Warsaw folklore
2. By chance it includes my own name
3. Is indirect reference to the "threats" expressed in the "Nie masz cwaniaka" song.

Understanding my response as a threat shows clearly you've been breathing the Warsaw air a little bit too short ;)

Have a nice day. I end rant.
---
EDIT: Mafketis: As I said, non-Warsawers will LOVE p-w. Can you also tell me: Don't you have quarrels who's real Poznaniak and who is not? I know you have that in the Greater Poland ;)

Language / Polish versions for English words? ! [34]

FInol


Some of us say "esesman" ;-)

I don't think anglicisms are wrong. English itself is based on so many languages, why Polish should be different?

There are at least four nations attempting to make their own words for everything. This is why the French say "ordinateur", the Swedes say "dator", the Czech say "pocitac", and the Hungarian say "szamitosgep", while the words "komputer" or "pecet" are so simple...

I like Hungarian words very much. It is so simple to guess that "szamitosgepgazda" means the PC administrator. Szamitos is a digit, gep is a device, the gazda is the Tatra landlord ;-)

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]

Sorry for late answer. Our project Psychodance spent the whole day on recording a new song. Soon, we plan making next new original song, in modern arrangement, telling an authentic story from Targówek on a woman killing several men by giving them methanol-polluted vodka ;-) The b*tch will eventually die because the last survivor -- getting blind from methanol -- has forced her to drink it herself ;-) It is dangerous to mess with grown up men of Bielany or Targówek; and even the ones of Saska Kępa or Piaseczno could be dangerous types, especially when they are mental :P


I had replied likewise. The words on Antek who should be feared of (mojra is a slang word for fear; dintojra is a slang word for bloody revenge, acquired from Hebrew) are the lyrics of "Bal na Gnojnej". A person understanding Warsaw should know a little bit about who the hangman Maciejewski was, where the Gnojna street was located, what the bar at Josek was, too. Getting some hold on the folklore always helps, especially if you refer to "Nie masz cwaniaka nad warszawiaka" that is not any new song as you are perfectly aware.

Discussing taste of somebody else should be avoided. You may like "projekt warszawiak" and it is getting hype now. Still, the project and the song can be criticized.

Musically, it is obvious the guy cannot sing. This is hidden behind the layer of electro. The very basic idea behind any cover song is the melody line shall be retained as the melody (not the lyrics!) define the song. I could tell you about extremely modified cover songs, such as "Satisfaction" done by Devo, Metallica's songs done by German a capella band Van Canto or by the bluegrass band Iron Horse, traditional "Friggin' in the Riggin'" by Sex Pistols and Anthrax; many other songs have been covered in the most weird way. Have you ever heard punk-rock played acoustic with ukuleles?

Any respected cover song however does not leave the listener in doubt what actual song we are talking about. "projekt warszawiak" makes the impression the people making this song miss musical ear and they had sacrificed the music in the favour of hype.

Visual layer of "Nie masz cwaniaka..." by p-w reminds me a cartoon, as authentic as the movie "Psy" treated as a documentary of everyday policemen work. This is how much the "warszawka" people -- especially those working close with the TV -- understand and feel about Warsaw.

Authenticity? My wife told me: "The vid seems to be made by people spending most of their time in the Ursynów district (only blocks of flats there), with occasional visits to the city centre on their way to the University; spending the rest of their time watching TV and clubbing".

That's what I want to tell you about my and my wife's sentiments regarding 'projekt warszawiak".


You've got the feeling from a true warszawiak. The song can be appreciated by "warszawka" not by warszawiaks. And it is.
--------
I daresay you have listened only to the first verse of Mordewind's "Syrenka". Saying that a folk band using a drum set and overdriven electric guitar combined with bag-pipe does the new song the old way is.... I give up.

"Warszawa" by T.Love is something you don't like. Yet the youth of Warsaw loves the song and identifies with it. Didn't you miss some phrases that make that song so artistically great?

-- "A Grochów się budzi z przepicia" - how much do you know on Grochów's everyday life? I spent great deal of my youth there.

-- "gdzie wiosna spaliną oddycha" - have you been to Warsaw in May, all the beautiful blooming trees and what you smell is the exhaust gas unless you live in Saska Kępa?

-- "zielony Żoliborz, pieprzony Żoliborz" - even leaving in that wonderful quarter is not that nice.

-- "Ściekami z rzeki kompletnie pijany" -- well, take a swim in the Vistula River

This song rings 100% true and authentic. Well if you say rock is obsolete, I let you live with that thought.

All the best.

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]


You said something about the coffin, and as you used to be a Warsawer, I should be extremely solemn with you, Magdalena ;-)

It's OK you like "projekt warszawiak" but I have yet to hear what artistic merit you find in their music.

Here is Szwagierkolaska in Stanisław Grzesiuk song "Antek"

Here is the Grzesiuk's original:
[kla12ma.wrzuta.pl/audio/0TThU8p819g/stanislaw_grzesiuk_-_antek_oryg.los_bandyty] - Antek by Grzesiuk

How can anybody say "projekt warszawiak" is of any artistic merit compared to Szwagierkolaska's arrangement?

This song is close to my heart. For readers not fluent in Polish, here's rough translation:

Antek (The Fate of A Bandit)
Here, in the city of Mermaid I was born, and our Mother worked hard
She had two sons, that is, Feliks and of course me; she wanted raise us decent men
Feliks was good at studying, and I wanted to work at a factory
My brother became a lawyer soon, and it took me couple of years to become a bandit.
The Mother was crying and worrying, and brother was telling me off in those words:

"Antek, Antek, oh you poor boy, go straight or shame on you
Remember, Brother, you'll end up badly, your talent and shrewdness will be wasted".

I ran away from home, I set off with a Browning in my hand
I became a boss of a gang in a couple of years
And my brother Feliks became an attorney.
I attack some Mister once at night, it was raining terribly, terrible it was
I point my Browning at his forehead and suddenly a familiar voice shouts: STOP!
I recognized my brother, I got scared. My brother was telling me off in those words:

"Antek, Antek, hold on, it's Feliks, brother of yours
Go straight, you still got time, the world will be yours"
I answered him:
"Get away from here! Don't waste your words!"
My brother wept tears and went away.
And I was a bandit again.

Several years had passed since that moment, and finally I was caught together with my gang
And then I recollected the words of my brother when I was led to the Court's hall
My brother was standing among the judges, he was the one to sentence me to death.

"Antek, Antek, you poor one, you'll fade like a flower
You didn't want to listen to your own brother's words;
the hangman is awaiting".

(I cried but wiped my tears and my heart lost its power;
Brother said "HANG HIM!" and then he died since his own heart broke)
Neither tears of our Mother helped nor the brother's voice
An the scaffolding's awaiting me
That the bandit's fate.
---
There is depth in these lyrics. There is a story behind it. Grzesiuk was genuine with his banjo and throat destroyed by five years of a concentration camp and by abuse of alcohol. There's music in Szwagierkolaska's version, something missing totally in "projekt warszawiak".

Now I see these "warszawka" people in suits, trying to convince me no-one is smarter than a Warsawer. If I met one of those people, I'd really punch them in face to see how much Warsawer they are ;)))

With regards, to you, Magdalena.
P.S. Living for the same duration of time in Brwinów/Podkowa Leśna as you were living in Warsaw, I do not feel myself a Brwinower or Podkower, OK?

You also said


The fact you do not live here anymore Magdalena limits your perception and causes your statements somewhat risky. You want a present-day Warszawa song, don't you?

Here you are: [w220.wrzuta.pl/audio/8hdtWyc896L/mordewind_-_mordewind_-_defaac_to_-_11_-_syrenka] - Mordewind - Syrenka (Original song)

All guys of Mordewind live at the right bank of Vistula ( Warszawa Praga) and this is why they sing:
"Mermaid, mermaid, the Warsaw maid
Your home's where the green river-bank is
I'm crazy with you, with your beauty
Visit sometimes my Praga side"

Mordewind is a band that often can be met at the folk stage of the Polish Woodstock Festival.

Regards,
Antek

I only regret I could not find a better video.

youtu.be/hHSOZnJyjU4

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]

Dear Magdalena,

My Grandpa settled in Warsaw in 1905, starting as illiterate industrial worker, then becoming a successful farmer and gardener in Wawrzyszew and paying back his bank credits before 1939, the only of all neigbours. My Dad was born in 1919 in Warsaw and got educated there. He was taken for forced labour to Germany from Kercelak in 1942. I was born in Warsaw in 1961. My both daughters were born in Warsaw, one in 1987, the other in 2000. Taking all into account, you should avoid teaching me what is Warsaw and what is not.

I say: "projekt warszawiak" is fake for me. You simply cannot tell me what I feel belongs to Warsaw genre and what does not. Anybody in the world can take any song and make it. Will it be genuine? I doubt. "Star Spangled Banner" version by Jimi Hendrix was authentic because he was authentic. The people of the "projekt warszawiak" are not genuine at all, even if you like the project.

The songs that are genuinely Warsaw style and were written in the modern era are, for example:
1. "Warszawa" by T-Love although Muniek Staszczyk and the band are from Częstochowa
2. "Małgośka" by Maryla Rodowicz, although she was born in Zielona Góra
3. "Sen o Warszawie" by Czesław Niemen, although he was born in Belarus
4. "Warszawa jest smutna bez Ciebie" by Jacek Lech, although he was born in Bielsko-Biała

I perceive all those singers as Warsawers, regardless wherever they were born.

Of modern Warsaw acts, Szwagierkolaska is of great artistic merit. Do you know Szwagierkolaska's music?

I do not deny the post-war Warsaw in which most of great artistic acts were created by the newcomers who became Warsawers. I only say two things:

a. You refer to the song "Nie masz cwaniaka nad warszawiaka" by Stanisław Grzesiuk who was a pre-war Warsawer since he was two-years of age. The era of such songs ended really with the Warsaw Uprising

b. The "projekt warszawiak" smells fake and holds no artistic value or message -- at least for me.

Thank you for your attention.

P.S. Since you appear to understand Polish perfectly, note these lyrics of "Bal na Gnojnej", a pre-war Warsaw song:

"Kto zna Antka, czuje mojrę
Ale jeden nie znał jej
I napotkał na dintojrę
Skończył się z ręki mej" ;-)

History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]

Why not Austria?

History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]


I mean, things started degrading after the Sobieski's reign. The Constitution of 3rd May was made far too late.

Life / The REAL Warsaw :-) Video clip. [43]

Short comment from my side:

The real Warsaw ended with the Warsaw Uprising 1944. The city, razed down to the ground by the Nazi was destined to not exist anymore. Initial postwar plans assumed setting the country's capital city in £ódź. Only the enormous strength of surviving Warsawers resulted in rebuilding the city. During the Stalinist era, the stay permission in Warsaw was granted by the Communist Party. This had created a caste of "warszawka", arrogant newcomers hated all around the country. The concept of "warszawka" is pre-war, still the true first post-war "warszawka" was the product of the administrative acts as described by Leopold Tyrmand in his "Dziennik 1954".

The current "warszawka" are also posh newcomers, upstarts. No wonder "warszawka" as caste is despised. "Warszawka" has nothing to do with Warsawers.

For me, the "projekt warszawiak" is untrue, and it seems to be a product of "warszawka" themselves.

Listen to some of real Warsaw music, although I must apologize for poor quality:

youtu.be/dJU7gX_8LoQ

Contemporary "Warsaw" music, true to life:

youtu.be/YiyCNVD05jM

Said I, a son of a Warsawer born in 1919.

Honestly, the whole "projekt warszawiak" looks fake to me. Watch those people, they look and behave as if they have come straight from the Woronicza street (where TVP1 is located) or from TVN.

The true Warsaw types are here. A band called Menele.

Mariusz Kuczewski (Qcza)
Dariusz Wołosewicz (Grzywa) and Qcza
Piotr Walewski
It would be very scary to meet him in a backyard ;-)
A Warsaw pre-war drinking place might not look so much different than that one

And those young people of "projekt warszawiak"? No wonder "warszawka" is not popular ;-)

History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]

Sokrates


Nothing is granted forever. Czasy saskie są faktem. The Saxon era cannot be denied.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Cała przyjemność po mojej stronie, lyzko!

When we are at it, Czech is at least a logical language. Let's take the phrase "A smith forges metal":
Czech: Kovar kova kovo
Polish: Kowal kuje metal ;-)

I have to admit I'm experiencing problems with the declension of "książę" and "ksiądz" myself, especially in plural...

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

I can only speak for myself.
Learning English was fun. Just because it was the "brave new world" will all words, grammar, pronunciation different. Russian was also much different, starting with the alphabet.

Now, learning speaking proper Czech, and especially write properly would be real pain. The pronunciation is killing for a Pole. I'm not unable to pronounce the work "kriz" (cross) properly at all! Then, accenting and different stresses at each word. Finally, the grammar that is so different from the Polish one!

Reading Czech books means a lot of fun, though. I started with Svejk many years ago and read now whatever I can get.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


"Porównaj język angielski książąt Charlesa i Williama". Sorry for correcting you.

Since Magdalena (ahoj!) is here, I'd like to refer to differences between Slavonic languages and problems Slavs experience learning next Slavonic language themselves.

I spent a number of years travelling to Czech Republic and Slovakia. Especially, Czech seemed so different! I was later explained the restoration of the Czech language in the 19th century was based on local dialects with strong avoiding of polonisms and germanisms (Am I right, Magdalena?). After couple of years, I started speaking broken Czech and Slovak. Actually, I was perceived a Slovak in Brno, and a Czech in Bratislava, due to mistakes made constantly.

After some time, I was in online/phone session with my Russian colleague. He preferred speaking Russian to English, so I joined him thinking it would be useful to refresh my Russian. At some moment, I wanted to tell him I'd need a minute to make some coffee. So I said: "Padazhdi minutochku, ya paydu i sdyelaju KAVU". After long while I could hear him speaking uneasily "Chto eta abaznachayet 'KAVU'?" ... long break, then "Ahhhh! KOFYE!". So much about language similarities.

Also, anybody thinking high-Czech is a modern language is wrong. Oppositely, the language is based on ancient Slavonic words, say "kovo", "ocel", "lahev" or "strecha" while Polish uses borrowed words such as "metal", "stal", "butelka" or "dach"... Right Magdalena?

History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]


My fault. Yes, such alliance was sought by some politicians.

Are you showing the Polish officer's sabre, 1919-1939?

History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]


You may even call me a crypto-German if you like.

You are saying Kosovo was the heart of Serbia. The word "was" is crucial.
Upper Silesia was Czech and it was German. It is not anymore. Many Upper Silesians fought for Poland in the Silesian Uprisings but many Upper Silesians were fighting for Germany, too

Please do not speak for the Zaolzie people, either. Have you ever met any Zaolzian? I have. Same as the Silesian, the Zaolzian are their own people. They speak Czech at work, they managed to have Polish street names in Cesky Tesin, and they speak their own lingo (neither Czech nor Polish) at home.

Silesian and Zaolzian just need to be left alone from any nationalists; they suffered from nationalists too long.

History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]


Pardon me? The Deluge ended in 1667, and the Vienna victory happened in 1683, with the peak of Polish military power ever.
Alliance with Russia was never sought throughout the history of Poland.