Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

go ahead and tell yourself goodnight stories, Zimmy, but the truth is, you're light years behind remotely grasping ANYTHING about the modern world, so the only thing you do understand must be as uncomplicated as what I said. You're so dumb any place where're you're NOT is better off for that, so if you're so worried about the invasion I proposed, how about you do all the women a favor, move to Siberia on your own (and take with you all the douchebags who think like you), and go f*ck yourself in your death gap. unless you're into guys, which with your attitude is really the only valid option. good luck with your sorry life, dude.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

Here is what I read from your post, Zimmy:
drama, drama, drama, death gap...

I replied to all of your "arguments" which is a really generous way of describing the bs that you come up with. How do I even begin explaining anything to people who say that


. I would normally say that guys think with their d*cks but now I'm wondering what to say, because I doubt he has one...

Do you want to get my honest opinion of you village idiots? You're ignorant, close-minded little f*cktards whose only hope of having a relationship with a woman is convincing her somehow that she doesn't have options other than your sorry, ugly ass. I feel bad for all the girls who have to live and work in Poland, and marry you, and have your children, probably ugly as homemade soap, you intolerant, insecure, lame bugf*ckers, all dumber than a bag of rocks. With you there, one's only hope is to leave that excuse for a country as soon as possible or pray that you get invaded again, and all you guys get shipped off to Siberia.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


well, it's debatable. what is pretty clear, though, is that there isn't much of a fix for it, as much as we'd all like to extend the life expectancy of half of the population.

Nobody needs to convince me about how painful it is to pay taxes but there is the notion that even people who don't have kids benefit from other people's kids being educated, and those who don't drive benefit from the infrastructure of paved roads and highways. And you can choose where to live, and whether you want to join the military or not, and you can, in a democracy, influence the government that decides how much taxes you pay. The topic of what you give up to live in a society versus what you gain has been pretty active since pre-humans started getting together to hunt, and the ideas on how to organize a group of humans living together have been evolving, through trial and error, towards more and more perfect systems (ok, we're very far from perfection, but much closer than we were just a few hundred years ago). So I find it hard to accept that treating women equally wouldn't be considered an improvement worth undertaking.


Exactly. Because governments (at least our government) has a much higher standard of avoiding any kind of discrimination than private corporations or many other countries. Apparently it's possible to accomplish and the world doesn't end (even though affirmative action is not the best way to execute it, imo). I'm not advocating that all organizations be run like the government, and I hope someone rethinks the AA, but, in some respects, there are positives about the government as a workplace.

Ok, I see it's a physically demanding job, and I'm glad someone's doing it. I can understand why most women would decide not to do that. But it doesn't mean that men should decide women can't do it, this or any other job, whether officially or by tacit consent based on a stereotype.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

Well, nothing is theoretically stopping men from saving all the extra money they make and retiring sooner, right?

You're right, nature is not fair, it's doing well from the perspective of whole populations, but not so much when it comes down to the individual level. Thankfully, we're not in a society where an individual can readily be sacrificed for the good of the community (unless they choose to, and if they do, we call them heroes and hold them in admiration...)

Not knowing the details, I can't comment why there aren't many women at your place but, at the very least, if a woman does apply, I would expect she would be allowed to do so, her candidacy would be evaluated using the same criteria, she would be paid the same as her male counterparts (unless she underperforms), and she would have the same chances for promotion (again, unless she underperforms). Does it sound that crazy? What is so seditious about it that some people would cry to high heaven and start looking for their pitchforks?


I'm glad you figured it out.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


I think he meant it as a joke... From an economic perspective, however, the institution of a grandma is quite beneficial... I wonder if studies have been done on how much grand-mothering translates into in terms of GDP :)! Maybe the fact that women live longer should be calculated into the life-time output, because if kids are left with grandma, the mother can go back to work...


perhaps you need to get out more? read more? acknowledge information that doesn't conform to your viewpoint?


I thought people could recognize what they wrote. Silly me.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


didn't you just agree with Zimmy that the pay gap is somehow "fictitious" because women, as heads of households, get to spend the money that men bring home and that men pay for their dates? (which is just such an asinine thing to say)


Sure, I'd pay that much to keep my husband around for 5 more years when we get old since, according to our statistical life expectancy, I'm doomed to outlive him...

What I'm having trouble with is, you're surely not arguing that men should be paid more because their life expectancy is shorter?


LOL!!! find me the guy who'd rather collect garbage than be in management...

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

oh, I get it, Zimmy, you work in construction and you have a female boss... well, live with it. some women will make more money than you.

pay gap exists even when measured in similar positions. I'm going to try to get it across it to you one last time: women get paid less for the same work. Female financial professionals, on average, make less than male finance professionals. Female insurance agents earn less than male insurance agents. Even female nurses and teachers earn less than male nurses and teachers. How does your death gap explain that?

So we are different (although only the uninquisitive mind like Zimmy's wouldn't wonder WHY we're different) - but the point is, so what that girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks? How is it a good argument to present to someone who's getting paid less money for their work only because they are female?


Marynka just explained it above...

I get it - you come from a different society, what you consider your own, individual beliefs, Magdalena, are really social conventions that you grew up in. Open-minded people constantly seek to verify their assumptions against new information. Perhaps if you get more insight into how other societies work, you'd see the Polish way is not the only way of seeing things. And the "I'm not going to make myself look like a victim" argument is pretty funny - sure, let's not stand up for what's right, because what will others think?!

I'm not arguing for quota (and neither is the EEOC, if you cared to check), or free money, or any kind of wealth redistribution - I'm arguing for equal chances and for being paid the same for the same work.

Pretty clever argument with the retirement, and I appreciate the work that went into presenting the point (and I'm glad there are intelligent guys here who can present their point of view logically). But you know what the catch is? After your hypothetical woman has been underpaid for 40 years (which, according to your numbers, amounts to $287,640 over the span of her career), she gets the "huge" windfall in extra retirement money of $122,500. Now, which would you rather have? $287K or $122K?

News / "Shale Gas Revolution" will make Poland a Leading Country in Europe! [202]

thank you

News / "Shale Gas Revolution" will make Poland a Leading Country in Europe! [202]


i keep my fingers crossed that it is 3 tcf

how do you say shale gas in Polish?

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


yes! see, guys? women are way ahead of you in understanding things!

good point about the toys, didn't think about it.


the government programs in the US were never intended to provide retirement income, only to supplement it, and I don't think it's the government's job to support retired people, either. The American idea of government responsibilities is much different than what you have in Europe.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


Can you explain why they shouldn't accept women?


you know which country has the lowest divorce rate in the world? Libya! Followed by Georgia, Mongolia, and Armenia...

Life / Uptight Poles [262]


except when those other people are not Polish, or if they're gay, or if they're not Catholic, or if they're more successful, or if they show interest in Polish women, or if they're smart enough not to believe in conspiracy theories about Osama or global warming, or if GK disapproves of them for any other reason... oh no, no respect for THOSE people!

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


Me neither. We are on equal footing here. If only societies paid more attention to reason rather than "tradition..."

I don't think we're going to solve the nature vs nurture dilemma here, and I can live with the fact that it's most likely both, to a varying degree, depending on the issue. I read the article, and it is pretty interesting.

In case of children playing with toys, there isn't much difference in the value attributed to playing with dolls versus playing with buses or logs. However, later on children are channeled into following behavior patterns that are linked with future value or usefulness: when people see a loud kid telling other children what to do and organizing a group play, if it's a girl, people call her bossy-pants and consider it undesirable; if it's a boy, he's a "born leader." The trouble is that later on those social preferences may weigh on how self-confident, or how successful some people are, compared to others.

Going back to the pay gap question, however, I'm very much concerned that inequality like that is explained away by some people by the "natural order of thing," that this is just how it has to be, given the essential differences between sexes, and that the status quo can be traced back to biology or science, etc., the way that slavery and holocaust were attempted to be argumented based on the "scientific" proof of the innate inequality of races (although I'm far from saying that the pay gap is like slavery or the holocaust...) or, worse yet, by any religious teachings (and there is plenty of countries where religion "forbids" men to treat women equally). This is why, in a civilized society, we have laws that are meant to equalize its members' chances of success regardless of biology, physical strength, or similar factors.

The bottom line is, if I had a daughter, I would like for her to have equal chances of pursuing a career in any field she might choose, to those of her male peers.

I'm not really sure how mandatory gender differences in retirement would solve anything. It only works if the body which mandates the retirement (whether the government or the corporation) provides the means for the retireree to live on. Some countries do, some countries don't. I'd love to retire at 45... I might not be able to. But if I don't have the money to retire at 70, for whatever unfortunate reason, I don't want the government telling me I can't work any more. Besides, if men and women were paid equitably before and after retirement, what difference would it make who retires earlier?

UK, Ireland / Cheap calls to Poland from the UK [134]

Vonage (vonage.com)

calls from the US to the UK and to Poland and a number of other countries are free. I think we pay about $35/month, which covers all of our landline calls, local, long-distance, and int'l

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


also not very tolerant of women living alone, or women raising children by themselves, women choosing not to marry, women choosing to marry but not to have children, women making more money than men, or women speaking their mind in general... I mean, all of this, that's just crazy talk...

the perfect woman, in GK's mind:
#1 - she is breathing AND actually willing to go out with him,
#2 - whenever not required to be the nurturer his stupid God made her to be, she should just spend time in quiet admiration of his egg-size balls...

Although, since nobody is ever likely to satisfy #1, no need to worry about #2.

News / "Shale Gas Revolution" will make Poland a Leading Country in Europe! [202]

oh, that's cute, GK. not to burst your bubble, but the 23 billion cubic meters that Poland has in shale gas reserves equals 812 billion cubic feet. The US has reserves of 616 trillion cubic feet, and has been mining at 1.1 trillion cubic feet a year since 2006.

don't get me wrong, it's awesome that Poland has another natural resource to exploit but it's not going to make you the next Saudi Arabia...

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

I don't mind people smoking but the point I was making about the 50s is what people considered to be the "natural" psychology of women was, in fact, just a social construct. And yes, we grow up to acquire taste in different things, but it's only because we encourage members of the society to behave in a certain way. There are societies where men wear more makeup/face paint or where women are tasked with "construction." Heels were initially invented for guys, too... Left without social guidance, boys and girls wouldn't probably differ much (in addition to being closer to animals than humans and unable to learn a language, which is probably why nobody tried an experimental way to prove it...)

Perhaps the reason why there are not many women on your woodworking forum is BECAUSE there are not many women there? There isn't much social reward for a girl do do woodworking (unlike, e.g., cooking, although both sexes are likely equally good at both activities).

Being a homosexual cannot be "unlearned," I agree - at some level, you are who you are - but the mannerisms that the more flamboyant gay men exhibit are purely social both in form and in significance, except they usually are associated with the opposite sex.


No, but in a distorted view, like the one that criminals have, your status is pegged on a hierarchy, and you have to prove yourself to be "tough" to belong to the "inner circle." The first step is to confront your peers to establish that pecking order, and the confrontation is likely to be purely physical rather than intellectual. When it comes to pure physical strength, girls tend to lose, and aggression is still more acceptable among boys than among girls, even on the fringes. So, again, there is a social conditioning part to it.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

First of all, I don't think anyone, including governments, should mandate a retirement age for anyone. Two, in many countries (Poland, if I'm not mistaken) women are forced/encouraged to retire sooner than men.

Psychology has a lot to do with social conditioning - if you teach a part of the society that it's not ok to be assertive or ask directly for what you want, you're going to have that part of the society behaving in a less direct, aggressive way. Women can be as vicious as men, as soon as they realize it's ok. The combat example is not very strong, either, because there are armies where women are at the front lines just like men, and underwear has nothing to do with it (and there are pills that eliminate the underwear issue). Criminal activity might have something to do with physical strength, but I still think it's because girls are brought up in a manner that de-emphasizes standing up for yourself, even by families at the margins of the society (at the same time, the "standing-up" would usually involve physical fights, too).

It's all social conditioning. Did you know that before WWII male babies were dressed in pink, and female in blue, because blue was considered the "dainty" choice between the two colors? And why would someone need the "dainty" color to be assigned to girls, when male and female babies are virtually indistinguishable when it comes to appearance, behavior or social interaction?

Women in the 50s were told they're BETTER OFF staying at home and taking care of the kids, because they're not cut out for the tough world out there, and that their largest accomplishment was going to be how "well" they marry. Well, apparently, time has shown a lot of us are not the withering violet type, after all.

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


all three of them discriminatory... how can you not see that?

please, no more "death gap" stuff, as I said before, a small sliver of the whole spectrum of what people do (i.e. jobs in hazardous conditions) does not explain the whole phenomenon. I'm not advocating for 50/50 quota. I'm saying women should be allowed to pick their profession and not be faced with stereotypes. You know, some thought they were doing women a favor by not letting them enter those fields at all, as if women weren't capable of making that choice for themselves...

In case you missed my point - women don't earn more money not because they're less capable or don't need or don't want money or because they can't work as hard, but because they're not given an equal chance to do so.


My level?! Sucks-on-d*ck advocates outright violence against women, but when I say that he should be moved to off-topic, it's objectionable?

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


ok, we get it, the death gap... nothing to laugh at but it doesn't explain EVERYTHING.

the overtime gap narrows along with the rest of the overall picture, but it's still there. at the same time, as the economy moves away from manufacturing and other hourly jobs into salaried professions, so goes away the overtime itself.

the excerpt also says that women tend to work more p/t jobs than men, another example of gender separation.

you can't deny the reality.

oh, and here's a visual for you:

Can we move Sucks to Off-Topic permanently? Has he said anything constructive or intelligent in the past six months?

• 
  
  

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

Some companies got into legal trouble because they were assigning overtime to men more frequently than women - which is a form of discrimination... Either way, there is a pay gap in a lot of jobs that employ salaried professionals (and don't pay overtime).

It's not by choice that women lose the "seniority" battle (again, "seniority" is not relevant in non-union jobs anyway, so we're talking about a subset of jobs, not the entire job market), it's BECAUSE they stay home to take care of children, and it's BECAUSE they make less money than men in the first place. It's a catch 22.

Women are getting into professions that have traditionally been predominantly male, but it's very difficult and it doesn't happen overnight, so it's not like we can just "choose" to do so, and in fact, there are things stopping us - stereotypes and glass ceilings!

Well, I don't hear the crowds of guys complaining they don't get enough retail jobs, so perhaps we should put aside the comment on how men are allegedly discriminated against, as settled.

oh, and can someone get Socks his pills again today?

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]


lol... I found the statistics page:

bls.gov/news.release/atus.nr0.htm

it just makes Zimmy's own argument irrelevant.

News / "Shale Gas Revolution" will make Poland a Leading Country in Europe! [202]


yeah, GK, that's an awesome business plan... did you come up with it all by yourself?

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

Zimmy, you have it all wrong.

It's true that that the pay gap has narrowed since, say, the 50s, but it's still there. The very fact that you mention gender separation in certain occupations (like, some professions are predominantly represented by women versus men), is a vestige of discrimination, because women tend to work disproportionately in lower-paying fields. Also, the gap is wider for minorities than for Caucasian women.

Why do women take time off for kids? Because in the majority of households, it's the woman who makes less money. (And it's not true that women take more sick days. Perhaps they take more time off to care for children, but it's still the same reason - the guy makes more money). If you ask yourself why, there is no logical explanation - the women are not less intelligent, the children don't need a mother - they need a parent/caretaker, so other than the "gender role," there is nothing to explain that.

It's true that more women graduate from colleges - still, why is it that they're a minority in management? And, on average, why do female college graduates make less than male graduates, in the same field?

The assumption is that women need less money, because they have men to take care of them. I remember being told about a layoff at a company a relative of mine worked at, where she was told that she had been selected to be laid off because she had a husband who had a job, and the guys who kept their jobs had families to support! That's something she should have sued for, but she chose not to.

And it happens here, in the US. Probably to a lesser extent than in other places, but there is still need for legislation that closes the gap, like the Lilly Leddbetter Act.

I'm not complaining, I have a good job and I get paid well, but to say that there is no pay gap is just ignorant.

(btw, the stuff about women working less hours doesn't make sense, either)

Love / How do Polish men feel about gender equality? [780]

From what I hear from my husband and his Polish family, women in Poland are not really treated equally at all. They're usually delegated to "women's" tasks, which mainly means they're expected to take care of the household and children, and it's really unheard of for the guy to stay at home while the woman works. Women's unemployment rate is higher, they earn less money, and they're virtually unrepresented in management positions, not to mention there are professions that are considered "not for girls," like engineering. Women are mainly supposed to be teachers, or nurses, or work in retail, or do some general administrative support. Anti-gender discrimination employment laws exist on paper but not in practice, so it's ok for an employer to ask women to wear makeup or high heels (although I hope this part is really not true any more...)

So, the question about how MEN feel about gender equality is irrelevant, women shouldn't be in a position to have ask the guys for approval to be equal. Women ARE equal, and guys should just learn to live with it (unless we need help with fixing things or carrying heavy stuff :)

USA, Canada / Chicago's 1.1 million Polish Americans celebrated Constitution Day [47]


I agree. I think Dope should go wherever it is he came from.

Imo, people should take a civics test before they're allowed to vote. I know many non-citizens who are smarter and more aware of what's going on in the country than born citizens. Obviously, taking a test wouldn't fly either here or in Poland. (Just like people should be required to take an IQ test before they're given a driver's license... Not happening, either.)

If people go through the trouble of casting their absentee votes, it means they care enough. It really doesn't matter that they vote differently than people residing in the actual country in question (or that they vote differently than Dope would - in fact, it only shows how smart they are) - maybe they see and understand some things that only leaving the country lets you do?

Love / Hot Polish girls in clubs - why don't they dance/talk with the most attractive men only? [148]

can we let this thread die? why do you people dignify that loser jarnowa's a$s-blabber with responses?
he has no chances with any female of the human species, once he starts talking, and he's probably not much to look at either, so let's just ignore that excuse for a dude

Life / Uptight Poles [262]

Hubert rocks.
A rare example of introspection and honesty.
Now, wait for all the schizos to start bashing him...

Language / Why when spelling Polish names abroad, Polish letters are ignored? [68]


some commonly used font sets here don't have Polish characters (or characters from other languages). Besides, nobody knows how to pronounce them, so Wałęsa is really the same as Walesa, and neither of them is pronounced the original Polish way... It takes decades before a name (like Brzezinski) becomes a household name, so the pronunciation and spelling become closer to Polish. For the most part, only few people know who Walesa is.

News / CO2 emissions in Poland. Should Poland go nuclear or stick with clean coal technologies? [59]


are those the same people who crashed Kaczynski's plane, faked the moon landing, covered up the real UFO, are keeping Osama alive in the basement (with Elvis!), and are taking all the Polish women away from you?

If I were you, I wouldn't be advertising that I know so much about all this. One day you might be flying an old Russian plane in a fog, god knows what they can do then!