Posts by porzeczka

porzeczka

6 Mar 2010

Life / Polish Cartoons/ Legends [15]

Try if they will like these:
Porwanie Baltazara Gąbki
...
Miś Uszatek

youtu.be/Bo4dYjb5Rro

Chojrak, it's spookiness is too confusing.

I like it ;) but you are right if the children are small, it might be too scary for them, so don't show it.
You want 100% Polish cartoons, and not only with Polish dubbing like Muminki etc.

porzeczka

6 Mar 2010

History / just before the war the Polish/Ukrainian szlachta learned Ukrainian [243]

;) What else?! Nazis knew who was a Jew and who not and they needed specifically Ukrainian students to give them a list of Polish professors of L'viv university?

It looks like they needed.

During the night of July 3 and July 4 several dozen professors and their families were arrested. The lists were prepared by their Ukrainian students[1]

You might want to answer how did Nazis know who was a Jew?

It was all imagination. They just woke up and said:"Let us imagine wrongdoings".

Some wrongdoings were true, some were not (moreover on personal level).

THIS IS MY FREE INTERPRETATION

Where is your source for Ukrainian kids and women killed in Bereza Kartuska, Nat? Isn't it another example of YOUR FREE INTERPRETATION?

4500 Ukrainians imprisoned in 1939, 387 died, women and children as well)

'Eventually, 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another 150 were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.[7]' means 'Poles burnt all our churches'.
I don't argue with facts, only with your manipulation of them, and don't read only bolded fragments or the ones that you choose.

20 years of Polish rule, including 10 years of Józefski's rule in Volhynia shouldn't be limited to one-two years. Did you know that OUN's victims in the Interwar Poland were people who wanted peaceful coexistence between Poles and Ukrainians?

But when Ukrainian nationalists in Galicia wished the Poles to get the hell out of their lands, it is A "BIG DEAL", "NAZI COLLABORATORS".

Mass-murdering of defenceless civilians is always a big deal. We can try to understand why it happened, but there is no justification to it - that is what people should learn from the past.

I could give you examples of ethnic minorities in Ukraine, that are repressed and their rights are not respected (according to them).

You behaved like BARBARIANS in Ukraine, WILD, INHUMANE BARBARIANS

And how did 'you' behave? You lost your 'only-victim' status.
I said that Poles and Ukrainians were both victims and perpetrators, but that's not enough for you. You believe that Ukrainians are morally superior and all their crimes are excused.

porzeczka

29 Mar 2010

History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]

the fact that they deny Poles the right to spell their names in Polish is not that funny.

The point 14 of the Polish-Lithuanian 'Treaty on friendly relations and good neighbourly cooperation' signed in Vilnius on 26 September 1994, states clearly that members of ethnic minorities have right to use their given names and surnames in the form appropriate to the language of the ethnic minority.

Au minium, there shouldn't be any suffixes added.
Bilingual sings can/should be introduced in municipalities where more than 20 percent residents belong to a national minority (as for European Union). Similar sings are present in German,

Lemko (in Cyrillic),

Lemko

Lithuanian

lith

... inhabited areas in Poland. When it comes to Lithuania, there are forbidden even in Šalèininkai and Vilnius districts where Poles constitute respectively 79 and 61 percent of inhabitants.

I hope they would finally appreciate what it feels like. But Lithuanians are angels in their current minority policies as compared to Poles in XVI-XVII centuries and 1920-1939. Nobody burns churches, nobody converts them into institutions of another confession, nobody burns libraries sending strzelcy groups, nobody forbids the publications.

So you want innocent people to have their rights limited and violated because of Polish-Ukrainian historical animosities and 'centuries old' grudges? Are you really such a narrow-minded person?

If I remember correctly, there was time when Orthodoxes oppressed Polish and Lithuanian Catholics/Uniates, and closed /destroyed/converted hundreds of Catholic and Uniate churches into Orthodox ones. Obviously Interbelum's Poles and Lithuanians (Orthodox churches were confiscated and destroyed also in Lithuania) strived to reverse that, and, without doubt, took revenge as well. If they reasoned like you, they would probably have slaughtered all Orthodoxes.

OUN's pamphlets were forbiden, but Szewczenko's works and Doroszenko's 'Narys istoriji Ukrajiny' published by Ukrainian Institute in Warsaw in the 30' or Orthodox, Church Slavonic bibles printed in Lviv in XVI, weren't.

c. 300,000 minority of Ukrainians (I think the numbers are higher, because in 1947 in Operation "Vistula" they forcefully deported 200,000 Ukrainians into Western Poland and it was 63 years ago, 3 generations past)

According to the census, only 27,000 Polish citizens declared themselves as ethnic Ukrainians.

don't have an opportunity to watch Ukrainian news for 26 minutes a month... Just simply having a program.

You have three Ukrainian programs in Polish public television (more than '26 minutes'/month). 'Ukraińskie wieści' is broadcasted every second Tuesday at around 6 p.m, 'Przegląd Ukraiński' - each weak, and 'Telenoviny' seems to be still aired.

Personnaly at home where I used to live, we had 2 Polish programs all day long!!!!!!!!!!, not 26 minutes a month.

That's hilarious :)
Jak odbierać ukraińskie media w Polsce
tryzub.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=447&Itemid=159

If you don't like Polish Public Television you can always take your own advice: buy a ticket and leave :) Seriously, there are far more valid accusations (in regards to treatment of ethnic minorities) against country of your origin.

It seems like somebody had good life in Lithuania under communism regime. The same was with Russians in Ukraine. They got always better possitions and access to education. They weren't eager to support Ukrainian independance, because then the competition would start on the same line. This way communism always kept tension of everyone against everyone, but not against itself.

Why don't you quote the rest of the text:

In 1950s the remaining Polish minority was a target of several attempted campaigns of Lithuanization by Communist Party of Lithuania, which tried to ban any teaching in Polish language; those attempts where however vetoed by Moscow which saw them as too nationalistic. [28] Polish minority, still remembering the 1950s attempts to ban Polish language, [28] was much more supportive of the Soviet Union and afraid that the new Lithuanian government might want to reintroduce the Lithuanization policies. [28]

Do you know any sources confirming that Poles were granted better positions and access to education than Lithuanians? If not, stop manipulating please.

Stop writing about history :)

porzeczka

2 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

I also found out that the action has started much earlier then 1938

That's true. One of the first destroyed Orthodox churches was the Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw:

Tsar Alexander III gave his approval to fund the cathedral on the date of anniversary of partitions of Poland in 1893 which was celebrated as "joining of the West Russian state"[2].

It was demolished in mid-1920s by the Polish authorities less than 15 years after its construction.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw

Some facts that were omitted:

- 66-70 percent of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics. The source of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XX c. was the Uniate Church (those 'nationally conscious' Ukrainians). Orthodox services were often conducted in Russian in Volhynia - that's why Piłsudski wanted to 'Ukrainise' Orthodox church there.

- There was negative attitude among Polish society towards Orthodoxes. Most probably because they were used by Russian government as instrument of Russification and took over Catholic Churches.

- When the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.

- In 1875, 375Uniate Churches were converted into Orthodox churches. At least 240Roman Catholic churches were converted into Orthodox too.

In 1912, the Orthodox Bishop Nikolai of Warsaw declared in the State council that the historic task of the Russian state used to be and still was the Russification of everything non-Russian and the conversion to Orthodoxy of everyone who was not a member

Polish 're-vindication campaign' (that is how they called it) can be seen as next stage of the conflict between Orthodoxes and Catholics (or perhaps even more directly Russian faith vs Polish faith, Russian sphere of influence vs. Polish sphere of influence).

Check CBOS research on how many people know anything about massacres in Volhynia.
Perhabs 'revindication' is not often discussed in public because of the same reason Volhynia 1943 isn't.

porzeczka

2 Aug 2010

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]

Well it is well known fact that Stalin promised Poland that it would get Lwow

It seems that Roosevelt (and Churchill) very delicately 'suggested' that Lwów could be returned to Poland. Stalin was against it.

Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin in Yalta, 6 February 1945:

Stalin: I refer now to our allies' appeal with regard to the Curzon line. The President has suggested modification giving Poland Lvov and Lvov Province...

Roosevelt:This is my only suggestion. If we can work out some solution of this problem it will make peace much easier.

Churchill:I have made repeated declarations in Parliament in support of the Soviet claims to the Curzon line, that is to say, leaving Lvov with Soviet Russia. I have been much criticised and so was Mr Eden especially by the party which I represent. But I have always considered that after all Russia has suffered in fighting Germany and after all her efforts liberating Poland her claims is one founded not on force but on right. I that position I abide. But of course if the mighty power, the Soviet Union, made a gesture of magnanimity to a much weaker power and made the gesture suggested by the President we would heartily acclaim such action.

porzeczka

2 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region

Apparently what Aphrodisiac posted is some horribly bad translation. Here is a post concerning it:

e.g. that's the original:

- Znieść opłaty administracyjne przy zmianie obrządku prawosławnego na rzym.-kat

And that's translation:

- Cancel the administrative payment to the Orthodox rite priests.

original:
- Dopuścić ich do szkół podoficerskich

translation:
- to prevent them from joining Officer schools.

porzeczka

3 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region

That's very bad, biased/skewed translation (of the whole document), and you know it if you read the thread on Axis history forum (the one you took it from). So why are you posting it (again)?????????

Some fragments mean exactly the opposite of the original.

Roman Catholic Church in Warsaw (Kościół Pijarów) converted into Orthodox Church.

St Joseph Church

Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolishedby the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.

Russian faith or Russian influence, Ukrainian Orhtodox churches in Chelm region were not centers of Russian Faith but Ukrainian faith.

Depends how you look at it.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state and barely 400000 Orthodox believers.

Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

note: the Orthodox believers in PLC must have been mostly Belarusians
Catholicism was seen by tsarist authorities as Polish faith. That is why they tried so hard to 'depolonize' Ukrainians, among others. They did it by destruction/changing Catholic churches into Orthodox ones, building Orthodox churches everywhere and by forcing mass-conversions to Orthodoxy. During 'revindication', Polish authorities tried to 'derusify' some regions - at least that is what they believed they were doing - there is talk about 'derusification' in official papers.

The region under dispute which in 1912 came to be known as Kholm province, consisted of eleven districts inthe eastern provinces of Siedlce and Lublin, both of which were predominantly Polish and Catholicand had been part of the Congress of Poland established in 1815. Adjacent to the provinces of Grodno and Zhitomir, their population included 310,000 Catholics, 305,000 Orthodox, 114,000 Jews, and 28,000 people professing various other faiths. But these figures tells only part of the story, since about two-thirds of the Orthodox were former Uniates, who a generation earlier (had been more or less coerced into converting to Orthodoxy. The converts were not firm adherents of Orthodoxy...

Source: The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia, Abraham Ascher, 2001

Like the Promethean project and the Volhynian experiment, the ukrainization of the Orthodox Church was justified within a certain conception of Polish interests. When negotiations between the Polish state and the Orthodox Church begun in 1930, the Polish prime minister could foresee that a ukrainized Orthodox Church would serve Polish interests in the Soviet Union.

Józefski and his collaborators worked to ukranize the Orthodox Church, to incline Orthodox priests to use the local Ukrainian language rather than Russian in sermons, record keeping, and informal communication with believers.

Source: Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007.

In Russian? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism looked like?

I think you meant to say that they were Greco-Catholic from the church and not Greek which refers more to nationality.

They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?
Search google for Greek Catholics in Ukraine

huri.harvard.edu/lib/bibliography/cont10.html

porzeczka

3 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter.

Young terrorists such as Stepan Bandera were formed not by the prewar empires, but by fascist ideology and the experience of national discrimination in Poland.

In the late 1920s and early 1930s, as a new Polish government sought reconciliation with its five million Ukrainian citizens, Ukrainian nationalists acted decisively to prevent any compromise settlement. Bandera was one of the main organizers of terror campaigns intended to prevent Ukrainians from accepting the Polish government by provoking Polish retaliation. The main targets of their assassination attempts were Ukrainians and Poles who wished to work together.

Source: A Fascist hero in democratic Kiev, T. Snyder (a historian from Yale), published in The New York Review of Books, February 24, 2010.

porzeczka

4 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

but these were ignored[11] with Poles claiming that "all Ukrainians were Bolsheviks or something close to it".[12]

Probably inspired by this fact:

Ukrainian peasants made up the vast majority of the so-called Red Army that was led by the Bolshevik commander Antonov Ovseenko and launched against Kiev in late 1918 by the Bolshevik government.

Uniates have never made majority in Ukraine. Why do you make stuff up?

Not in Ukraine, but in Poland (during Interbellum). You failed to understand me.

Read more of Ukrainian history and you will realize that the main national spirit of Ukraine was upheld by Orthodox believers, not Catholics. Ukrainians who fought Poles and Russians in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were overwhelmingly Orthodox.

I wasn't talking about Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth period.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which in seventeenth century had helped sustain Ukraine's identity during its confrontation with the Poles, had become by the eighteen century a vehicle of Russification.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state
As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years?

What about forceful conversion to Russian Orthodoxy? That must have had an effect on the number of Uniats.

In 1794, immediately following the second partition that gave Russia its largest share of Commonwealth territory, the empress began an aggressive crusade to convert the Uniates of the newly annexed territories to Russian Orthodoxy. Upon her death in late 1796, fully half of the Uniate population in the Russian Empire - 1.5 million (primarily in the Right Bank Ukraine) - had officially converted to Orthodoxy, largely through methods of force.

Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005

In the 1770s , over 1,200 Uniate Churches were given to the Orthodox in Kiev region, and after 1793-1795, when the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300 Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.

Source:A history of Ukraine, Paul Robert Magocsi, 1996
However, Ukrainian Uniate church was able to survive in Austrian Galicia.

porzeczka

5 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

aphrodisiac
The topic is very complex. Apparently, to understand it, one has to know many elements of Poland-Ukraine relations through history. I hope Nathan's comments to which I'm responding are on topic.

The same place where 28 years earlier, in 1918 Poles did the following:

Sadly, around that time, both Poles and Ukrainians committed crimes against Jews.

On the day Polish independence was declared,anti-Jewish violence, hitherto rare in Poland, erupted throughout the country. In the eastern borderlands for the next three years numerous armies, paramilitary units, and bands of outlaws slaughtered each other as well as masses of civilians. While Jews fell victim primarily to Ukrainian forces, there were also cases of pogroms staged by Polish forces.

Source: The world reacts to the Holocaust, David S. Wyman, Charles H. Rosenzveig, published by John Hopkins University, 1996.

During the first half of 1919, in his uphill fight against the Red Army, Petlura blinked at the pogroms carried out or sanctioned by his own troops or by the hetmans who were beyond his control. In his eyes the Jews were at once anti-Ukrainian and pro-bolshevik.

Source: Source: Violence and Terror in the French and Russian Revolutions, Arno J. Mayer, 2002
Various forces attacked Jews in Ukraine.

The number of Jews murdered in the Ukrainian pogroms from the end of 1917 until 1920 is estimated at 75,000. Many of them were murdered in the most brutal fashion or horribly tortured. Thousands were injured, women were raped, and the meagre belongings of the poor were plundered and destroyed.

Source: A History of the Jewish people, H. Ben-Sasson, Harvard University 1976

And Polish church became a vehicle of Polonization. So, what are we arguing here about?

It seems incorrect to assume that Orthodox Church was the main source of Ukrainian Nationalism in prewar Poland. In XXc (1920s-1930s), 'Ukrainian' Orthodox churches still conducted sermons in Russian, e.g. in Volhynia, contrary to Uniate ones. Furthermore, most of Ukrainians in Poland were Uniates (even in censuses, Uniates equal Ukrainians, the center of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XXc was Austrian Galicia), the action did not affect them. The goal of 're-vindication' couldn't have been simply destruction of Ukrainian nationalism.

You said that it was done 'to fight Ukrainian nationalism'. Right? There is more to it.
Ukrainian Orhodox Church as a vehicle of rusification + prof. Magocsi's words: Orthodox Church in Poland was historically associated with the tsarist government and its policy of russification ... Polish authorities especially at the local level remained ill disposed to what was considered a 'schismatic' church with roots in Russia. Such attitudes resulted in the so-called revindication campaigns.

Poland signed an agreement with Czechoslovakia in 1925 too, which it betrayed

Didn't Ukrainian Nationalists want a slice of Czechoslovakia too? Their ultimate goal was: an independent and unified Ukrainian state that would include Polish, Soviet, Romanian, and Czechoslovak territories.

Carpatho-Ukraine, also known as Subcarpathian Rus was a self-governingpart of the federal, second Czechoslovak Republic. Carpatho-Ukraine functioned as an autonomous province from October 12, 1938 to March 14, 1939

Ukrainian Nationalist historiography and populist writingshave described Carpatho-Ukraine as a “Ukrainian State” that existed in late 1938 and early 1939.

The pro-Ukrainian government that was formed in autonomous Subcarpathian Rus' on October 26, 1938, under the leadership of Avhustyn Voloshyn, came into being on instructions from Nazi German authorities in Berlin.

The governing system of Carpatho-Ukraine was greatly influenced by members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), who in turn were closely linked to Nazi Germany. The OUN intended to transform Carpatho-Ukraine into the Piedmont, or what it described as “the pure kernel” of an independent Greater Ukraine.

Source: Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, Ivan Ivanovich Pop, 2002.

'Greater Ukraine'?
Plans of Ukrainian Nationalists (they obviously wanted to divide Czechoslovakia) were justified based on what?

According to the Austro-Hungarian census of 1910, the territory claimed by the West Ukrainian People's Republic had about 5.4 million people. Of these, 3,291,000 (approximately 60%) were Ukrainians, 1,351,000 (approximately 25%) were Poles, 660,000 (approximately 12%) were Jews.

There were only 60% Ukrainians in Ukrainian West Republic. Double standards? Medieval Kievan Rus territory?

And all the atrocities and 350 ways of killing fantasy of yours is pure BS as everything you say.
...or even pictures of Ukrainian families, presented as Polish, murdered by who knows whom in what was going in Ukraine at that time.

How do you know those are Ukrainian/not Polish families? Sources?

porzeczka

5 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

Source:
Б. Жуків., Нищення церков на Холмщині в 1938 р. з 25 ілюстраціями, Краків 1940.
B. Zhukiv, "Destruction of churches in Holm area in 1938", 25 illustrations, published in Cracow 1940.

porzeczka

5 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

Official Russian data for 1906:

- Chełm district: 70 884 Catholics, 58 870 Orthodox, 11 Catholic churches, 47 Orthodox churches

- Hrubieszów district: 48 238 Catholics, 65 105 Orthodox, 8 Catholic churches, 63 Orthodox churches

- Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches

- Włodawa district: 44 175 Catholics, 43 576 Orthodox, 7 Catholic churches, 30 Orthodox churches

- Konstantynow district: 64 520 Catholics, 6346 Orthodox, 9 Catholic churches, 23 Orthodox churches

- Bialsk Podlaski district: 46 968 Catholics, 22 089 Orthodox, 9 Catholic churches, 33 Orthodox churches

- Radzyń district: 82 745 Catholics, 3838 Orthodox, 6 Catholic churches, 16 Orthodox churches

Strange proportion of churches and believers.

porzeczka

5 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw while burning hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Western Ukraine if you indeed were revindicating.

Why do you make stuff up?
1890-1900:
1939:
2004:

Info: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
I will answer the rest tomorrow.

porzeczka

7 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

out of 3 100 Orthodox churches Catholics demanded restitution of 880 post-Catholic temples, including 240 Roman Catholic and 640 Unite Catholic.

Apparently some churches were returned to (Catholic) faithful, some were demolished. It didn't cross your mind that Orthodox Churches built by Tsarist authorities were the ones in most cases destroyed? It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.

Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...

W stolicy Polski pozostały tylko dwie cerkwie prawosławne. Inne zwrócono przedrozbiorowym właścicielom (dotyczyło to zarekwirowanych przez carat świątyń katolickich), przekazano innym wyznaniom lub zburzono.

Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.

A great deal of this territory and its settlers subsequently became the western edge of Rus' principality at the start of the 9th century,

Not for long. The territory we talk about was part of Kingdom of Hungary since the beginning of 11th and later of Austria-Hungary.

in July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovyna; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state.

Under the unfavorable circumstances, having no army or other ways of influencing political decisions, Rusyns voted for the best available option - Czechoslovakia.

In the first place, Rusyns wanted independence.
Ukrainian Nationalists took advantage of the weakness of Czechoslovakia and with Nazi blessing politically took over Subcarpatian Rus. The name Carpatho-Ukraine was imposed by Voloshyn's goverment.

In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:
(1) a single-party system,
(2) the adoption of Ukrainian nationalists ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permitted interment without trial at a Camp in Dumen,
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization 'Carpathian Sich', which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government,
(4) the abolishion of an independent judiciary.

Czechoslovaks didn't know everything about Voloshyn. Here is the reason of his 'strange' behavior:

After his election by the diet as president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn was faced with the following realities:Nazi Germany rejected his request that Carpatho-Ukraine become a protectorate; the Hungarian government delivered an ultimatum calling upon the Carpathian Sich to cease its military resistance; and the Czechoslovak Army evacuated the region.

Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, 2002

porzeczka

8 Aug 2010

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [273]

Do yous seriously think that no churches were built for hundred(s) of years, and none under Tsarist rule? Or did I understand you wrong? Around year 1920, there were three types of Orthodox churches in Poland:

- 'Ancient' Orthodox churches (as you call them),
- Orthodox Churches built by Tsar
- Orthodox churches that were former Uniate or Roman Catholic churches.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some4.7 million Uniatesin the Polish-Lithuanian state andbarely 400000 Orthodox believers.

Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

12 times more Uniates than Orthodox followers in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, hence it could be some 10 -12 times more Uniate churches + Roman Catholic churches. During tsarist rule, the proportion of churches and believers was disturbed. Even in regions with Catholic majority, Catholics had several times less churches than Orthodox e.g. Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches. Not to mention that many of those Orthodox 'believers' were former Catholics who were forcefully converted to Orthodox faith.

But again you avoid my question of why these churches were left untouched and Russian Orthodox in the middle of Polish capital and Poles who were so eager to fight tsar and his policies went all the way to Volyn' and started destruction of Ukrainian churches there as a revindication? Hope this time you'll answer my question.

I wanted to show an example of russification (#158) and included two pictures of the Church in Warsaw
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
One picture presenting the Catholic Church before Russification and the other one - the same church after Russification. Apparently you thought that the Church is still Orthodox temple to this day (you didn't notice that the second picture was old, actually more than century old).

Why do you show pictures ofUNBURNED RUSSIAN CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE OF FREAKING CAPITAL OF YOURS and give this as an example of your REVINDICATION on RUSSIAN policy

You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw

The church in question was transfered into Catholic Cathedral in 1919, and I already posted something about it.
Only two Orthodox churches were left untouched in Polish capital. Do you know how many other were destroyed or converted into Catholic churches? Were all 'Ukrainian' churches destroyed or given back to Catholic faithful? No! So your divagations make no sense.

by still existing Czech government, that very Voloshyn (a Ukrainian priest, by the way) tried to preserve independance of this land WHILE BEING SUPPORTED BY CZECH TROOPS WHICH KNEW ABOUT THE INDEPENDANCE BECAUSE IT WAS FREAKING DECLARED AND EVERYONE KNEW. But since Hitler refused its independance he and the CZECH army retreated unwilling to die against the overpowering force.

Everyone knew about the independence? And by independence you mean Nazi protectorate?

When, on March 14, 1939, Slovakia declared itself independent, Czechoslovakia in effect ceased to exist and Carpatho-Ukraine found itself in a political vacuum.Voloshyn responded by declaring late in the evening of March 14 Carpatho-Ukraine's independence and calling on the German government to accept it as a protectorate....
After his election by the diet as president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn was faced with the following realities: Nazi Germany rejected his request that Carpatho-Ukraine become a protectorate; the Hungarian government delivered an ultimatum calling upon the Carpathian Sich to cease its military resistance;and the Czechoslovak Army evacuated the region. Voloshyn decided to dismiss the cabinet just chosen by the diet and, together with the leading activists of Carpatho-Ukraine, he left immediately for Romania and eventually Prague which by then was part of Germany's Third Reich.

If there are better sources than wikipedia than why not use them?

How can you say how popular or unpopular were the policy of the country if it existed only a few days or even hours?

That quote was about autonomous Subcarpathian Rus/Carpatho-Ukraine!!!! Here are fragments from the book:
rusyn.org/polcarpathoukraine.html
Carpatho-Ukraine under Voloshyn's government became a tool in the hands of OUN activists, and even more so it was used by Nazi Germany for its own purposes. In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:

(1) a single-party system;
(2) the adoption of a Ukrainian nationalist ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permittedinternment without trial at a camp in *Dumen;

(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization, the *Carpathian Sich, which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government;
(4) the abolition of an independent judiciary.

the attitude of the Ukrainians of that time is well shown in the statements of Mykhailo Hrushevskyj, an early Ukrainian nationalists leader, who claimed that: "the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be consideredthe cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".[6]

And explanation of this:

The Cultural confrontationbetween the Ukrainians and the Poles cost the former dearly: it forced Ukrainian nobles to choose between their own stagnant, impoverished cultural heritage an the vibrant attractive Catholic/Polish culture. Not surprisingly, the vast majority opted for Catholicism and the Polonization that invariably followed. Consequently, the Ukrainian lost their noble elite.

O. Subtelny, A Ukraine, 2000.

porzeczka

24 May 2011

History / Poland's biggest historical blunder? [341]

In Lviv (then Lwów or Lemberg) in 1918, after the Polish Army captured the city, seventy-two Jews were killed by a Polish mob that included Polish soldiers

Strangely, it's hard to find wikipedia's information about massacres committed by the Ukrainian army in 1918-1921 (not because they didn't happen).

Ukrainian nationalist forces led by Petlura were responsible for 493 separate massacres.

Manus I. Midlarsky (2005), The killing trap: genocide in the seventeenth century, Cambridge University Press, page 47.

e.g.

1919; February 15-17: Proskurov (Podolsk province): Massacres, rapes, looting by armed units of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Estimated number of victims: around 1,500.

1919; March 22-26: Jitomir (Volhynia province): Massacres, rapes, looting by armed units of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Estimated number of victims: between 500 and 700.

...
massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?artpage=3

Talking about Ukrainian 'barbarians' who plundered towns and murdered civilians.

porzeczka

19 Jul 2011

Feedback / Why are there so many on here, who do not like Poland [150]

I think Admin summed it up ever so succinctly, 'Poland, the Good, the Bad, the Ugly'.

Negatives outweight positives. 'The good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful' or just 'the good and the bad' like it was before, would look more neutral.

porzeczka

22 Jul 2011

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

Some basic information about Germanization in "Prussian Poland":

The 1872 legislation was aimed at diminishing the influence of the Polish Catholic hierarchy by eliminating clerical supervision over elementary schools. Additional law soon followed mandating that all teaching in Posen, West Prussia, Silesia, and East Prussia be conducted in German rather than in Polish, with exception of religious instruction.

Beginning in the 1890s, additional Germanizing measures, such as a new school policy aimed at eliminating religious instruction in Polish, were also implemented. In 1908, the Reichtag enacted laws to facilitate expropriation of Polish-owned properties and to restrict the use of Polish public assemblies.

The Germanization of the Volksschule was paralleled by the gradual Germanization of the entire class of higher civil servants. While there used to be numerous Poles among the higher civil servants, as well as in the officer corps, they have slowly all but disappeared. [ . . . ]

These fragments are from "A German Voice of Opposition to Germanization (1914)". Apparently, some Germans understood that the Germanization of Poles was futile.

Tell you what though - spend some time learning about the II RP educational system

I suggest you start with the issue of Polish and Ukrainian education in L'viv around the turn of the century. Might open your eyes a bit.

What publications would you recommend?

I've found several (Polish) sources online which make it clear that the parents were actively involved in this.

Post links or at least titles and authors.

Would that be like the way that Polonization was forced upon Jews, Ukrainians and others in the interbellum?

People who diminish the wrongs of Germanization, shouldn't speak against Polonization

porzeczka

22 Jul 2011

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

Right, I thought it was very disturbing. And already being able to compare German and Polish girls?

"Niemki kochać i żyć nie umieją" means: German women don't know how to love and live. It's about the feeling of love, not making love.

"Nasze dziewczyny są najpiękniejsze w całym świecie, kochać umią poczciwie sami wiecie." - Our girls are the most beautiful in the world, their love is honest/sincere (they love honestly/sincerely/faithfully). "Niemki nie potrafią się kochać" would mean German women don't know how to make love.

porzeczka

22 Jul 2011

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

@delphiandomine
As a 'specialist' on Polish history, you surely base your theories on something more than wikipedia. Some of your claims contradict what I have read (not in Davies' books). I asked nicely about your sources, but you haven't answered. Why don't you share with us the names of authors who opened your eyes? Maybe after reading their works more people will understand your attitude? ;)

Not German ruled, but rather events occurring within German territory which contained a significant amount of Poles.

You mean events occurring particularly in Polish ethnic territory.

porzeczka

22 Jul 2011

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]

Busia/busha is a bona fide word in colloquial Polish-American speech. There are even 'I love my Busia' T-shirts and suchlike gadgets.

There is a word Babusia in Polish langauge (Wielki słownik ortograficzny - PWN). Busia/Busha might, indeed, be a shortened form of it.

porzeczka

23 Jul 2011

Life / Polish and Czechs [190]

I think the Czechs dislike Poles

Not those who live in Czech Republic.

Czechs consider Slovaks the most popular minority, with 92 percent of them saying they have a positive attitude towards them. Other popular ethnic minorities are Poles (78 percent), Greeks (63 percent) and Jews (60 percent).

The poll was conducted in March 2011.
praguemonitor.com/2011/04/18/poll-roma-are-least-popular-minority-%C4%8Dr

porzeczka

23 Jul 2011

USA, Canada / Polish-American mutilation of the Polish language [75]

Some people in Poland say "krawatka"

Indeed. It can be either a paper label on a neck of a bottle of beer, "[twenga.pl/dir-Hobby-i-Rozrywka,Koraliki,Krawatka-do-wisiorka] - zawieszka do wisiorka", or a diminutive of cravat.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krawatka

One thing that I know is that some people from that part of the world identified themselves to the American authorities as Polish - even whenthey were actually Ukrainian/etc. It's quite possible that they continued to identify as Polish, especially as Poland was "known" in the world at the time, whereas there wasn't much concept of Ukrainian self-identity during those times.

I assume by "during those times" you mean the period of partitions. They could have as well stated that they are Ruthenian/"Little Russian" or just Austrian or Russian.

There was a Polish dialect in Red Ruthenia, called [staff.amu.edu.pl/~hjp/teksty/kurz1.pdf] - dialect "południowokresowy" - Polish language influenced by Ruthenian. I wouldn't consider it a mutilation of Polish language.

porzeczka

23 Jul 2011

Life / Polish and Czechs [190]

Czechs don't have any sizeable minority anymore, the poll is about people they don't know anyway. I mean... Jews?

So treat it is simply as an expression of sympathy and antipathy towards certain nations (10). The most popular in Poland (according to CBOS, 2011) are: Czechs, Slovaks, Spanish, Italians and Hungarians. Unfortunately, such polls usually are about people 'we don't know', often reflection of stereotypes and generalizations.

Do Czechs like us? I don't know - they certainly have reasons to dislike us, when you look at history, but I think that for most Czechs history is not as important as it is to Poles.

Polish-Czech past conflicts seem to be more important to outsiders than to Czechs and Poles. There were also good things in our common history. Why not concentrate on them?

porzeczka

23 Jul 2011

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

Except he wasn't living in occupied Poland - which is a term exclusively used to refer to the 1939-1945 period.

You are wrong....

the relatively harmonious annexation

This phrase should be always used instead 'the Polish occupation'.

porzeczka

23 Jul 2011

History / Defying Germaniztion in 1901 Polish boy writes 'German girls are ugly' [128]

But in English, as the territory was part of Prussia and Poland's claims recognised by no-one - you simply cannot use the term "occupation".

If there was at least one country that didn't recognize the partitions of Poland and protested against them, would it mean that Poland indeed was under occupation?

Why? It wasn't occupied.
It might not be what Poles want to hear, but facts are facts.

What I meant was the use of the term "Polish occupation" in the following cases: "Polish occupation of", "lands under Polish occupation".

I don't call a vast amount of collaboration with them "defiant".

What is collaboration in such circumstances? Working in Prussian bakery to feed one's family?

Certainly, they rejected the annexation and considered it occupied - but that was in their mind, not in the world's mind.

For the record, the terms: "Prussian Poland", "Austrian Poland", "Russian Poland" were in use when Poland wasn't formally on the map of Europe, e.g. "Higher education in Russian, Austrian, and Prussian Poland (1896)", published by U.S. Government Printing Office; The encyclopædia of geography (1837) See more here.

porzeczka

23 Jul 2011

USA, Canada / Polish-American mutilation of the Polish language [75]

I remember listening to music it was mostly rhyming of this pre war Warsaw artist. He was singing in the local dialect which I believe went extinct after the war with Warsaw's population dead or misplaced.

This might be about Lwów :) I think the most popular pre war song from there is "Tylko we Lwowie".

edit: I will try to search some information about this dialect from Warsaw.

sklep - cellar (immigrants friom wielkopolska)

Doesn't "sklep" mean "cellar" in Czech language?

porzeczka

4 Jan 2012

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]

and there you have it. time to move on.

Just to finally close this case ;) - a few more sources confirming that the word "busia" exists in Polish dialects:

1. Mieczysław Szymczak, "Nazwy stopni pokrewieństwa i powinowactwa rodzinnego w historii i dialektach je̜zyka polskiego" ("Names of degrees of kinship and affinity in history of Polish language and dialects").

books.google.pl/books?id=dm7RAAAAMAAJ&q=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&dq=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&hl=pl&ei=42isTprXN8XO-QbmobTqAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA

Forma babcia dominuje w Małopolsce, na Mazowszu i w Wielkopolsce (w sumie 132 zapisy), forma babusia - w dialekcie kociewkim, tucholskim, krajniackim, chełmińskim i północnowielkopolskim (w sumie 26 zapisów). Ta ostatnia na wymienionym terenie stała się w wielu wypadkach formą neutralną, w związku z czym funkcję hipokorystyczną przejęła forma będąca jej pieszczotliwym skróceniem, mianowicie busia, zanotowana przez nas na wymienionym terenie w jedenastu miejscowościach.

Again, "busia" is a hypocoristic form.

2. Mieczysław Karaś, Jerzy Reichan, "Słownik gwar polskich: opracowany przez Zaklad dialektologii polskiej Instytutu języka polskiego PAN w Krakowie" ("Dictionary of Polish Dialects...")

books.google.pl/books?ei=OKOqTqznOqjj4QSR2_nrDg&ct=result&hl=pl&id=IHRXAAAAYAAJ&dq=busia++s%C5%82ownik&q=busia#search_anchor

Busia - matka ojca lub matki.

3. Kazimierz Nitsch, "Mały atlas gwar polskich" (Small atlas of Polish dialects)
books.google.pl/books?id=GuhKAAAAYAAJ&q=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&dq=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=-b IET8foFYWZhQfJvs2iAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

na zachodnim Śląsku - babcia, w Wielkopolsce z Krajną - babusia, busia, babcia i babka, w Borach Tucholskich - babusia, busia i babka, na Kaszubach - babusia, babuśka, babcia, babka i sporadycznie babula, babulka.

4. Honorata Skoczylas-Stawska. Biuletyn Polskiego Towarzystwa językoznawczego, "Z badań nad słownictwem pogranicza językowego wielkopolsko-śląsko-małopolskiego w województwie kaliskim." ("Research on language vocabulary in the borderlands of Silesia, Greater Poland, Little Poland, in Kalisz voivodship").

books.google.pl/books?id=Ef8oAQAAIAAJ&q=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&dq=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&hl=pl&ei=yGmsTovdHoGE-waGg83uDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA

Babcia, babciuchna, babusia, babuśka, busia, babunia...

5. An interesting finding (from 1879!) Antoni Małecki, "Gramatyka historyczno-porównawcza języka polskiego".
327. 3. Kategoryi trzeciej okazy:busia,babusia, babcia, Marysia . Władzia , ciocia itp
It is possible that this word was more common in the past.
books.google.pl/books?ei=erMET5GqIcSyhAfG9_zZCQ&hl=pl&id=8RQOAAAAIAAJ&dq=babcia+busia&q=+busia#search_anchor

These three shouldn't be overlooked:
6. "Słownik Gwary Mazurów Wieleńskich"
drawsko.freehost.pl/ok/30maja/Sandra/slownik.html

7. "Gwara babimojska".
babimojszczyzna.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=88

Link to Boletus' source - 8. Hanna Makurat, "Kociewskie babuś, buś na tle leksyki kociewskiej" ("Kocievian babuś, buś in the context of Kocievian lexis."), page 18.

"Babusia" (just like "Mamusia") IS a standard Polish word.
PWN dictionary: sjp.pl/babusia

porzeczka

8 Jan 2012

History / Lithuanians hate Poles? [156]

Największy dystans do Polaków w ostatnim sondażu wykazali mieszkańcy Szawli i Kłajpedy, gdzie Polacy stanowią znikomy procent.

According to the poll, the most reserved towards Poles are inhabitants of Klaipėda and Šiauliai, where Poles constitute a negligible percent of population.

Ponad połowa Litwinów nie chce Polaków za sąsiadów.

Actually, delphiandomine has point. Are there many people in Poland who refuse to learn polish and yet they live in Poland?

Is there any research confirming that Polish minority in Lithuania don't know Lithuanian/refuse to learn Lithuanian? Poles in Lithuania aren't immigrants, but autochthonous citizens - I would expect them to be bilingual.

Now there is an official project accordingly to which 70% of subjects in higher classes of the schools of national minorities would have to be taught in Lithuanian' but it could hardly be considered as a convincing argument as Lithuanian is a compulsory subject at schools and all school-leavers of the national minorities speak Lithuanian very good anyway.'28

National Minorities and Diasporas in Lithuania

porzeczka

8 Jan 2012

History / Lithuanians hate Poles? [156]

in the times of the Soviet Union they had no need to learn Lithuanian language

It is possible that older generations of Lithuanian Poles don't know Lithuanian as well as younger generation which learns this language as compulsory subject at schools and has been exposed to it since childhood. Maybe language courses for older adults would be more appropriate instead of the proposed reform?

They make an impression that Poland want's to retake Vilnius, just like Józef Piłsudski did, because in some towns people even put Polish street name plates just below the Lithuanian ones.

We have double-naming in Poland too: Polish-Lithuanian plates, Polish-German, Polish-Kashubian. Polish-Lemko...

The act states that traditional names in minority languages of localities and physiographic objects, as well as street names can be applied as auxiliary names to fixed geographical names in Polish.

ksng.gugik.gov.pl/pliki/new_polish_legislation_regarding_national_ethnic_and_linguistic_minorities.pdf