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Polish-Ukranian roots and genes


madparasol 2 | 12
25 Feb 2010  #1
This is my first post.
Not too long ago i read a thread about how Ukranians are really Polish. I don't exactly believe this but found this interesting subject, Haplotype.

(wikipedia)
The term haplotype is a contraction of the term 'haploid genotype'. In genetics, a haplotype (from the Greek: ἁῦ, haploûs, "onefold, single, simple") is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome. Haplotype may refer to as few as one locus or to an entire chromosome depending on the number of recombination events that have occurred between a given set of loci.

The genetic marker for most people of slavic origin is the Haplotype r1a1.

Anyways, it appears that Polish and Ukranian genes are pretty damn similar. As far as the frequency of this gene is concerned it appears very high in both Polish and Ukranian people.

I also found it interesting that this gene appears in our German cousins (not in high frequency but appears none the less) and goes as far as Iceland.

I'd like to hear some comments on this. Thanks.
f stop 25 | 2,513
26 Feb 2010  #2
Interesting.
My father was born in Kowel, Ukraine (then Polish) in 1930. Shortly after his birth, his mother sold all the land that her father didn't gamble away on horses and moved the family to outskirts of Warsaw.

My father never considered himself anything else but Polish.
vetala - | 382
26 Feb 2010  #3
It's like saying that Poles are really Ukrainians. Our genes are similar because we share ancestry and we intermingled for centuries. We are still separated by culture and language.
rjeden - | 29
26 Feb 2010  #4
Ukrainians are genteic mix between criminal Poles, Russians , poor farmers and Tatars and Turks.
Ironside 48 | 9,704
26 Feb 2010  #5
It's like saying that Poles are really Ukrainians. Our genes are similar because we share ancestry and we intermingled for centuries.

Honey, Ukraine were repopulated by Poles from Polish Kingdom after 1569 when Ukraine become part of the Crown, being before a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Some territories which constitute nowadays Ukraine, were integral part of Polish Kingdom since 1367, such as Lwów with surrounding areas and Podole.

So, it has nothing to do with roots, immigrants from Poland made Ukraine - if put it in simple terms!
vetala - | 382
26 Feb 2010  #6
Ironside
Er... It was already inhabited, you know.
Monastyrev - | 3
26 Feb 2010  #7
Northern Indians have almost 50% genetic similarity with Ukrainians too. Ukraine was under Polish control for a while, and as a Russian poet said, they started to change, take on polish traits; assimilation or inter-mingling?...
Ironside 48 | 9,704
26 Feb 2010  #8
Er... It was already inhabited, you know.

really ?
I hate to explain something to somebody so evidently ignorant of the subject.
let's put it this way - very sparsely populated,

Northern Indians have almost 50% genetic similarity with Ukrainians too.

Don't know, this genetic research is new untested thing, is not that northern Indians and Aryans in Europe migrated from the same geographical area - one part into present day indie and second into Europe.

But OP is talking about something else than obscure "genetic similarity" he talks about h r1a1
is something entirely different as a measure of genetic similarity.
Are you saying that h r1a1 is encountered in northern India as well?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
26 Feb 2010  #9
Ukrainians are genteic mix

And you are a mix between a b*tch in heat and a castrated mule.

Dupuy et al. (2005) speculated that "R1a [in Norway] might represent the spread of the Corded Ware and Battle-Axe cultures from central and east Europe." Luca et al. (2006), looking at data from the Czech Republic suggested there was evidence for a rapid demographic expansion approximately 1500 years ago. Rebala et al. (2007) also detected Y-STR evidence of a recent Slavic expansion from the area of modern Ukraine. Gwodzdz (2009) saw evidence for a "rapid population expansion somewhat less than 1,500 years ago in the area that is now Poland".

So scientists are not sure about where R1a1a originated and if they even pinpointed exactly the region, it would be still 1,500 years ago where neither of the two nations existed.

Apes share 99% of the their genome with humans. So how much do you expect to be a difference between two neighbors, not separated by seas, forests, mountains,...?

really ?
I hate to explain something to somebody so evidently ignorant of the subject.
let's put it this way - very sparsely populated,

Ignorant are you:

The economic development of Kievan Rus may be translated into demographic statistics. Around 1200, Kiev had a population of 50,000 people, Novgorod and Chernigov both had around 30,000 people.[16] Constantinople had population of about 400,000 people around 1180.[17] The Soviet scholar Mikhail Tikhomirov calculated that Kievan Rus' on the eve of the Mongol invasion had around 300 urban centers.[18]

In 1200:
Venice - a state-port, business center of the world - 80,000
London! - 20,000-25,000
Paris - c.80,000
According to Mottek, 10-15% of Germans lived in cities, the rest - in the countryside in 1100-1200 years. Since Kievan Rus' was one of the strongest kingdoms in Europe, not even mentioning military deeds, king Yaroslaw the Wise married his daughters out into other royal families:

Elizabeth of Kiev to Harald III of Norway (who had attained her hand by his military exploits in the Byzantine Empire); Anastasia of Kiev to the future Andrew I of Hungary, and the youngest daughter Anne of Kiev married Henry I of France and was the regent of France during their son's minority. Another daughter may have been the Agatha who married Edward the Exile, heir to the throne of England and was the mother of Edgar Ætheling and St. Margaret of Scotland.

Two urban centers like L'viv and Kholm (the second was renamed Chelm and now is in Poland) were built by Ukrainian king Danylo Halyckiy in 12th century before Polish barbarians invaded the country.

Let's logically assume the same population distribution. Then, make a calculation: 300 urban centers with an average let's say even 3,000 people = 900,000 urban dwellers. The total population will then be c. 6 million people (10% of European population!!!) It doesn't seem sparesely populated.

pol-and.eu/EN/History10-12Century.html

At the beginning of the 12th century Poland was inhabited by c.a. 1,5 million people. Biggest cities: Gniezno, Cracow, Wrocław and Wolin had 4-5 thousand inhabitants on average.

Looks like little villages ;) in comparison to Kijiv and Chernigiv. Compare Gniezno

One of the Piasts' chief cities, it was the first capital of Poland in the 10th century

to Kijiv

The city may have been founded in the 5th century as a trading post, perhaps part of the land of the early Slavs. It gradually acquired eminence as the centre of the East Slavic civilization, becoming in the tenth to twelfth centuries a political and cultural capital of Rus', a medieval East Slavic state

Newspapers like "Lomza news" often make similar claims and I see Ironside is an active subscriber. Try to look more extensively and no, Poles didn't come to some bare fields and didn't bring culture as many of you imagine: they came into well developped country and more then sure borrowed a lot from its culture.
porzeczka - | 102
1 Mar 2010  #10
The Soviet scholar Mikhail Tikhomirov calculated that Kievan Rus' on the eve of the Mongol invasion had around 300 urban centers.[18]

'The Legendary Rus cities':

The chronicles indicate that there were about 240 towns and cities in the land. However it is probable that as many as 150 of these were nothing more than fortified settlements inhabited by semi-agrarian population.

Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: a history, Toronto University Press- the book you recommended ;).

The total population will then be c. 6 million people (10% of European population!!!) It doesn't seem sparesely populated.

Kievan Rus wassparsely populated in comparison to western countries.

It is estimated that by the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries the total population of Kievan Rus' was approximately seven to eight million. At about the same time in Western Europe, territorially much smaller Germany (the Holy Roman Empire) also had approximately eight million people, and France about 15 million people.

Paul Robert Magosci, A history of Ukraine, Toronto University Press

Another quote from Subtelny:

Foreigners who travelled through Ukraine often remarked on its low density of population. While Polish lands on the average contained abouttwenty-two inhabitants per square kilometre, Ukrainian territories averaged aboutseven persons per square kilometre.

before Polish barbarians invaded the country.

Ruthenians didn't differ much from other 'barbarians':

Vladimir continued to expand his territories beyond his father's extensive domain. In 981, heconquered the Cherven cities, the modern Galicia; in 983, he subdued the Yatvingians, whose territories lay between Lithuania and Poland; in 985, he led a fleet along the central rivers of Kievan Rus' to conquer the Bulgars of the Kama, planting numerous fortresses and colonies on his way.

Vladimir I of Kiev
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I_of_Kiev

Daniel of Ruthenia wanted to take over the pagan lands to the North and West of his territories. In 1253 he accepted a crown and the title of king from the papal legate in return for his help in war against the pagans.

The Crusades, Helen J. Nicholson, Greenwood
Ironside 48 | 9,704
1 Mar 2010  #11
Kievan Rus was sparsely populated in comparison to western countries.

Was sparsely populated in comparison to any territory after 1238, when Tatar's invasions and domination started.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
1 Mar 2010  #12
The chronicles indicate

And the year the chronicles date to? I am glad you checked the book out :)

It is estimated that by the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries the total population of Kievan Rus' was approximately seven to eight million. At about the same time in Western Europe, territorially much smaller Germany (the Holy Roman Empire) also had approximately eight million people, and France about 15 million people.

So I even underestimated the population of Kievan Rus'. Now:
25 million people died in just under five years between 1347 and 1352. Estimated population of Europe from 1000 to 1352.
1000 38 million
1100 48 million
1200 59 million
1300 70 million
1347 75 million
1352 50 million

Kievan Rus

Kijiv

Ruthenians didn't differ much from other 'barbarians'

;)
Ironside, notice the location of Vistula (Wisła). It was almost at the border ;) Where are you from exactly in Poland? Maybe, your ancestors were proud residents of Kievan Rus' and you as a result are not really a Pole ;)
Ironside 48 | 9,704
1 Mar 2010  #13
Ironside, notice the location of Vistula

Where I'm from and where my ancestors are from are different questions!
why don't you put some more blots on the map?
being a rusin in medieval times and latter also meant only religion - orthodox religion
porzeczka - | 102
2 Mar 2010  #14
Regarding sparsely populated territories, I have to agree

I'm glad that you've changed your mind. The number of population is irrelevant.

Foreigners who travelled through Ukraine often remarked on its low density of population. While Polish lands on the average contained about twenty-two inhabitants per square kilometre, Ukrainian territories averaged about seven persons per square kilometre.

I don't think so called 'colonization' of Ukraine was state sponsored. It was free civilian migration to the sparsely populated areas.
And your magnates needed many hands to work the land. From where do you think they imported workforce? ;) Resettling of Ruthenian peasants would not have been enough.

Kievan Rus conquered a lot of land until 11th/12th century, including territories not inhabited by eastern Slavic tribes:

map

I am glad you checked the book out :)

There are some interesting fragments in it. You wouldn't like it ;)

And the year the chronicles date to?

Subtelny doesn't give this information. It must be the peak of Kievan Rus' achievements.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
2 Mar 2010  #15
You wouldn't like it ;)

If I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it ;) He writes in a beautiful narrative and even though he has some national inclinations, he still remains very objective and this I like :)

It must be the peak of Kievan Rus' achievements

Very subjective ;)
brown person
18 Jul 2010  #16
we all come from africa... we all the same, some us stayed brown, some us went white, some of us developed funny eyes. some of us went so dark they called them 'black' people. the original people were similar to asian/indian people today. whether you like it or not... humanity came from africa.... and civilisation came from India. Poland and Ukraine took thousands of years for the ice age to melt and people to stop becoming cave-man and start stealing culture and society from asian and muslim cultures. This is why Slavic people are very backward and have copied cultures from the countries around them.

hope that's shut you all up??
Crow 137 | 7,589
18 Jul 2010  #17
you are all Sarmats
Dudeski - | 25
18 Jul 2010  #18
Ukrainians are genteic mix between criminal Poles, Russians , poor farmers and Tatars and Turks.

Nasty, but it's very likely.
Sire Brenshar 1 | 61
18 Jul 2010  #19
and start stealing culture and society from asian and muslim cultures. This is why Slavic people are very backward and have copied cultures from the countries around them.

Muslim? You are aware of when Islam began, no?
This is probably the dumbest stuff I have ever read on PF concerning history
MediaWatch 10 | 945
18 Jul 2010  #20
Ukrainians are genteic mix between criminal Poles, Russians , poor farmers and Tatars and Turks.

Come on. That's not nice.

Ukrainians are fine people.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445
18 Jul 2010  #21
and smart too, which cannot be said about some of the Polish posters on PF;P
f stop 25 | 2,513
18 Jul 2010  #22
you are all Sarmats

that just shows that all this fighting and differentiating is so silly.
Blond hair and blue eyes is genetically disposable... get over it.
Crow 137 | 7,589
18 Jul 2010  #23
that just shows that all this fighting and differentiating is so silly.

mutual fight IS silly. But,...

Sarmats deserve to have right to restore freedom of their civilization

otherwise, they should fight for that right. Why would some others have right, while some have restricted rights?

so, as first step in your liberation, you should both support Serbians. Officially
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Jul 2010  #24
Not likely with the current Polish administration, Crow. It seems like Erdogan is more interested in Serbia than Tusk is.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
19 Jul 2010  #25
Come on. That's not nice.

Ukrainians are fine people.

He meant Cossacks Ill presume

Muslim? You are aware of when Islam began, no?

He probably meant cultures whom turned to be Muslim afterwords I guess
Although he is silly presuming that we all come from African has anything to do with Polish-Ukrainians roots and genes to do. More of human roots I say. If it was true
George8600 10 | 637
19 Jul 2010  #26
The genetic marker for most people of slavic origin is the Haplotype r1a1.

A single haplotype doesn't necessarily mean that populations are the same. R1a1 is BARELY enough to categorize anyone as slavic. Here is a map of it:

Map

It's most common is Poland, and is just as common in Ukraine as it is in the Mediterranean....so no go. I can tell you that Greeks and Turks don't look like Ukrainians even though they practically have the same frequencies of R1a1.

While Polish people and Ukrainians do share genes these are mere general slavic genes. However they don't for example have any Tatar Haploids which are found in about 64% of the Polish population. Haplotypes are elementary genetics. It is rather several distinct haplogroups that characterize an ethnicity in particular...as opposed to a single one which can barely label a family of genepools such as "slavic".
Ironside 48 | 9,704
19 Jul 2010  #27
Tatar Haploids which are found in about 64% of the Polish population. Haplotypes are elementary genetics.

could you elaborate, please ?
vetala - | 382
19 Jul 2010  #28
I'm also interested. How can Poles have more Tatar haploids than Ukrainians? Crimea is IN Ukraine!
Crow 137 | 7,589
19 Jul 2010  #29
It is rather several distinct haplogroups that characterize an ethnicity in particular...as opposed to a single one which can barely label a family of genepools such as "slavic".

to be able to talk of Slavic genetics we must take in consideration that we speak of ethos that covering biggest percentage of lend masses on the planet Earth.

what this practically mean? It means that Slavs represent ethos/race that live on vast geographical territory and live there, obviously, for very long period of time.

So, we must be aware of diversity of Slavic genetics same way as we are aware of diversities in Slavic languages. Simple, local conditions inevitable affected primordial Slavic gene pool and added some specific genetic elements due to natural environment.

for example, Slav from Bulgaria MUST differ (physically) from the Slav in Czech Rep. no matter that both of them share common genetic origin. They don`t need foreign influence to be different. No, they simple live on vast territory and in different micro climatic conditions. Their physical differences (lighter/darker variations) are natural and that mean normal. Still, we can found common genetic markers that speaks of their common origin (it is confirmed by genetics!) BUT, its the absolute nonsense if somebody seeks for absolute genetic overlapping. As i explained, it is impossible and unnatural.

Not likely with the current Polish administration, Crow. It seems like Erdogan is more interested in Serbia than Tusk is.

yes. Modern day Polish government abandoned Polish national interests and actually helping NATO (read Germanic/Turkish in particular case) occupation of Serbian lands- traditional Polish sphere of influence on Balkan.

So, we have increased Islamic/Turkish presents in the region. Its absolutely abominable to me that official Poland (no matter Serbian resistance) support that but, that`s how it is.
George8600 10 | 637
19 Jul 2010  #30
How can Poles have more Tatar haploids than Ukrainians? Crimea is IN Ukraine!

Are you aware that Poland has practically shifted over west since it's original founding over one-thousand years ago, dragging the populous with?


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