History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]

Individual opinions can be chosen selectively and manipulated to prove a point of view. Media sometimes (or too often) show only one side of the coin. Some talk about Lithuanian propaganda, others about Polish one. Who should we believe?


Vietnamese are not a "national minority" according to Polish law. I'm not aware of any ban on establishing private Vietnamese schools.


For a community to be recognized as a national or ethnic minority, its members have to hold Polish citizenship and the community itself has to meet a total of six conditions. One of the criteria is the following: 'its ancestors have been living on the present territory of the Republic of Poland for at least one hundred years.'

If the law won't change Vietnamese should posses a status of 'national minority' in this century.

mswia.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=755

History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]


And before 1918:



How do you know that?

History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]

The interesting thing is that Vilnius/Wilno/Вiльня was also claimed as part of an independent Belarus in 1918.
Belarusians could have argued that they were a majority/plurality in the area surrounding the city - according to the Russian census from 1897, they were 56,1% of population in Vilna Governorate.

History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]

No census is 100% reliable. However, these are the possible alternatives (regarding Polish-Lithuanian conflict over Vilnius/Wilno):

1. Russian census of 1897:
Vilnius/Wilno - Jews (40%), Poles (30,1%), Russians (20,9%), Belarusians (4,3%), Lithuanians (2,1%), Germans (1,4%), Tatars (0.5%), Ukrainians (0,3%), Other (0,4%)
Vilna Governorate (most of its territory seems to be in Belarus now; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg) - Belarusians (56,1%), Lithuanians (17,6%), Jews (12,5%), Poles (8,2%), Russians (4,9%), Germans (0,2%), Tatars (0,1%), Ukrainians (0,1%), Other (0,1%).

2. German census of 1916:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (50,2%), Jews (43,5%), Lithuanians (2,6%), Russians (1,5%), Other (2,2%)
Occupied Lithuania - Poles (58%), Lithuanians (18,5%), Jews (14,7%), Belarusians (6,4%), Russians (1,2%), Other (1,2%).

3. Polish census of 1921:
Administrative district Area of Wilno - Poles (57,9%), Belarusians (25,7%), Jews (8,1%), Other (8,3%).

4. German-Lithuanian census of 1942:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (41,89%), Jews (27,78%), Lithuanians (24,37%), Russians (1,95%), Belarusians (2,55%), Germans (0,25%), Other (1,21%)
Wilna-Gebiet - Lithuanians (43,44%), Poles (42,20%), Belarusians (10,89%), Russians (3,05%), Other (0,42%).

5. Soviet census of 1959:
Vilnius/Wilno - Lithuanians (33,6%), Russians (29,4%), Poles (20%), Jews (7%), Belarusians (6,2%), Ukrainians (2,8%), Other (1%).

Ethnic history of Vilnius region.
/wiki/Ethnic_history_of_the_Vilnius_region

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]


Just to finally close this case ;) - a few more sources confirming that the word "busia" exists in Polish dialects:

1. Mieczysław Szymczak, "Nazwy stopni pokrewieństwa i powinowactwa rodzinnego w historii i dialektach je̜zyka polskiego" ("Names of degrees of kinship and affinity in history of Polish language and dialects").

books.google.pl/books?id=dm7RAAAAMAAJ&q=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&dq=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&hl=pl&ei=42isTprXN8XO-QbmobTqAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA

Forma babcia dominuje w Małopolsce, na Mazowszu i w Wielkopolsce (w sumie 132 zapisy), forma babusia - w dialekcie kociewkim, tucholskim, krajniackim, chełmińskim i północnowielkopolskim (w sumie 26 zapisów). Ta ostatnia na wymienionym terenie stała się w wielu wypadkach formą neutralną, w związku z czym funkcję hipokorystyczną przejęła forma będąca jej pieszczotliwym skróceniem, mianowicie busia, zanotowana przez nas na wymienionym terenie w jedenastu miejscowościach.

Again, "busia" is a hypocoristic form.

2. Mieczysław Karaś, Jerzy Reichan, "Słownik gwar polskich: opracowany przez Zaklad dialektologii polskiej Instytutu języka polskiego PAN w Krakowie" ("Dictionary of Polish Dialects...")

books.google.pl/books?ei=OKOqTqznOqjj4QSR2_nrDg&ct=result&hl=pl&id=IHRXAAAAYAAJ&dq=busia++s%C5%82ownik&q=busia#search_anchor

Busia - matka ojca lub matki.

3. Kazimierz Nitsch, "Mały atlas gwar polskich" (Small atlas of Polish dialects)
books.google.pl/books?id=GuhKAAAAYAAJ&q=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&dq=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=-b IET8foFYWZhQfJvs2iAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

na zachodnim Śląsku - babcia, w Wielkopolsce z Krajną - babusia, busia, babcia i babka, w Borach Tucholskich - babusia, busia i babka, na Kaszubach - babusia, babuśka, babcia, babka i sporadycznie babula, babulka.

4. Honorata Skoczylas-Stawska. Biuletyn Polskiego Towarzystwa językoznawczego, "Z badań nad słownictwem pogranicza językowego wielkopolsko-śląsko-małopolskiego w województwie kaliskim." ("Research on language vocabulary in the borderlands of Silesia, Greater Poland, Little Poland, in Kalisz voivodship").

books.google.pl/books?id=Ef8oAQAAIAAJ&q=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&dq=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&hl=pl&ei=yGmsTovdHoGE-waGg83uDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA

Babcia, babciuchna, babusia, babuśka, busia, babunia...

5. An interesting finding (from 1879!) Antoni Małecki, "Gramatyka historyczno-porównawcza języka polskiego".
327. 3. Kategoryi trzeciej okazy:busia,babusia, babcia, Marysia . Władzia , ciocia itp
It is possible that this word was more common in the past.
books.google.pl/books?ei=erMET5GqIcSyhAfG9_zZCQ&hl=pl&id=8RQOAAAAIAAJ&dq=babcia+busia&q=+busia#search_anchor

These three shouldn't be overlooked:
6. "Słownik Gwary Mazurów Wieleńskich"
drawsko.freehost.pl/ok/30maja/Sandra/slownik.html

7. "Gwara babimojska".
babimojszczyzna.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=88

Link to Boletus' source - 8. Hanna Makurat, "Kociewskie babuś, buś na tle leksyki kociewskiej" ("Kocievian babuś, buś in the context of Kocievian lexis."), page 18.

"Babusia" (just like "Mamusia") IS a standard Polish word.
PWN dictionary: sjp.pl/babusia

Life / Polish and Czechs [191]


So treat it is simply as an expression of sympathy and antipathy towards certain nations (10). The most popular in Poland (according to CBOS, 2011) are: Czechs, Slovaks, Spanish, Italians and Hungarians. Unfortunately, such polls usually are about people 'we don't know', often reflection of stereotypes and generalizations.


Polish-Czech past conflicts seem to be more important to outsiders than to Czechs and Poles. There were also good things in our common history. Why not concentrate on them?

Life / Polish and Czechs [191]


Not those who live in Czech Republic.


The poll was conducted in March 2011.
praguemonitor.com/2011/04/18/poll-roma-are-least-popular-minority-%C4%8Dr

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]


There is a word Babusia in Polish langauge (Wielki słownik ortograficzny - PWN). Busia/Busha might, indeed, be a shortened form of it.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Do yous seriously think that no churches were built for hundred(s) of years, and none under Tsarist rule? Or did I understand you wrong? Around year 1920, there were three types of Orthodox churches in Poland:

- 'Ancient' Orthodox churches (as you call them),
- Orthodox Churches built by Tsar
- Orthodox churches that were former Uniate or Roman Catholic churches.


Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

12 times more Uniates than Orthodox followers in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, hence it could be some 10 -12 times more Uniate churches + Roman Catholic churches. During tsarist rule, the proportion of churches and believers was disturbed. Even in regions with Catholic majority, Catholics had several times less churches than Orthodox e.g. Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches. Not to mention that many of those Orthodox 'believers' were former Catholics who were forcefully converted to Orthodox faith.


I wanted to show an example of russification (#158) and included two pictures of the Church in Warsaw
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
One picture presenting the Catholic Church before Russification and the other one - the same church after Russification. Apparently you thought that the Church is still Orthodox temple to this day (you didn't notice that the second picture was old, actually more than century old).



The church in question was transfered into Catholic Cathedral in 1919, and I already posted something about it.
Only two Orthodox churches were left untouched in Polish capital. Do you know how many other were destroyed or converted into Catholic churches? Were all 'Ukrainian' churches destroyed or given back to Catholic faithful? No! So your divagations make no sense.


Everyone knew about the independence? And by independence you mean Nazi protectorate?


If there are better sources than wikipedia than why not use them?


That quote was about autonomous Subcarpathian Rus/Carpatho-Ukraine!!!! Here are fragments from the book:
rusyn.org/polcarpathoukraine.html
Carpatho-Ukraine under Voloshyn's government became a tool in the hands of OUN activists, and even more so it was used by Nazi Germany for its own purposes. In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:

(1) a single-party system;
(2) the adoption of a Ukrainian nationalist ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permittedinternment without trial at a camp in *Dumen;

(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization, the *Carpathian Sich, which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government;
(4) the abolition of an independent judiciary.


And explanation of this:


O. Subtelny, A Ukraine, 2000.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Apparently some churches were returned to (Catholic) faithful, some were demolished. It didn't cross your mind that Orthodox Churches built by Tsarist authorities were the ones in most cases destroyed? It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.

Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...


Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.


Not for long. The territory we talk about was part of Kingdom of Hungary since the beginning of 11th and later of Austria-Hungary.


In the first place, Rusyns wanted independence.
Ukrainian Nationalists took advantage of the weakness of Czechoslovakia and with Nazi blessing politically took over Subcarpatian Rus. The name Carpatho-Ukraine was imposed by Voloshyn's goverment.


Czechoslovaks didn't know everything about Voloshyn. Here is the reason of his 'strange' behavior:



Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, 2002

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Why do you make stuff up?
1890-1900:
1939:
2004:

Info: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
I will answer the rest tomorrow.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Official Russian data for 1906:


Strange proportion of churches and believers.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Source:
Б. Жуків., Нищення церков на Холмщині в 1938 р. з 25 ілюстраціями, Краків 1940.
B. Zhukiv, "Destruction of churches in Holm area in 1938", 25 illustrations, published in Cracow 1940.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

aphrodisiac
The topic is very complex. Apparently, to understand it, one has to know many elements of Poland-Ukraine relations through history. I hope Nathan's comments to which I'm responding are on topic.


Sadly, around that time, both Poles and Ukrainians committed crimes against Jews.


Source: The world reacts to the Holocaust, David S. Wyman, Charles H. Rosenzveig, published by John Hopkins University, 1996.


Source: Source: Violence and Terror in the French and Russian Revolutions, Arno J. Mayer, 2002
Various forces attacked Jews in Ukraine.


Source: A History of the Jewish people, H. Ben-Sasson, Harvard University 1976


It seems incorrect to assume that Orthodox Church was the main source of Ukrainian Nationalism in prewar Poland. In XXc (1920s-1930s), 'Ukrainian' Orthodox churches still conducted sermons in Russian, e.g. in Volhynia, contrary to Uniate ones. Furthermore, most of Ukrainians in Poland were Uniates (even in censuses, Uniates equal Ukrainians, the center of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XXc was Austrian Galicia), the action did not affect them. The goal of 're-vindication' couldn't have been simply destruction of Ukrainian nationalism.

You said that it was done 'to fight Ukrainian nationalism'. Right? There is more to it.
Ukrainian Orhodox Church as a vehicle of rusification + prof. Magocsi's words: Orthodox Church in Poland was historically associated with the tsarist government and its policy of russification ... Polish authorities especially at the local level remained ill disposed to what was considered a 'schismatic' church with roots in Russia. Such attitudes resulted in the so-called revindication campaigns.


Didn't Ukrainian Nationalists want a slice of Czechoslovakia too? Their ultimate goal was: an independent and unified Ukrainian state that would include Polish, Soviet, Romanian, and Czechoslovak territories.





Source: Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, Ivan Ivanovich Pop, 2002.

'Greater Ukraine'?
Plans of Ukrainian Nationalists (they obviously wanted to divide Czechoslovakia) were justified based on what?


There were only 60% Ukrainians in Ukrainian West Republic. Double standards? Medieval Kievan Rus territory?


How do you know those are Ukrainian/not Polish families? Sources?

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Probably inspired by this fact:



Not in Ukraine, but in Poland (during Interbellum). You failed to understand me.


I wasn't talking about Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth period.



What about forceful conversion to Russian Orthodoxy? That must have had an effect on the number of Uniats.


Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005


Source:A history of Ukraine, Paul Robert Magocsi, 1996
However, Ukrainian Uniate church was able to survive in Austrian Galicia.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter.



Source: A Fascist hero in democratic Kiev, T. Snyder (a historian from Yale), published in The New York Review of Books, February 24, 2010.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


That's very bad, biased/skewed translation (of the whole document), and you know it if you read the thread on Axis history forum (the one you took it from). So why are you posting it (again)?????????

Some fragments mean exactly the opposite of the original.





Roman Catholic Church in Warsaw (Kościół Pijarów) converted into Orthodox Church.



Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolishedby the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.


Depends how you look at it.


Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.

note: the Orthodox believers in PLC must have been mostly Belarusians
Catholicism was seen by tsarist authorities as Polish faith. That is why they tried so hard to 'depolonize' Ukrainians, among others. They did it by destruction/changing Catholic churches into Orthodox ones, building Orthodox churches everywhere and by forcing mass-conversions to Orthodoxy. During 'revindication', Polish authorities tried to 'derusify' some regions - at least that is what they believed they were doing - there is talk about 'derusification' in official papers.


Source: The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia, Abraham Ascher, 2001



Source: Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007.

In Russian? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism looked like?


They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?
Search google for Greek Catholics in Ukraine

huri.harvard.edu/lib/bibliography/cont10.html

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region

Apparently what Aphrodisiac posted is some horribly bad translation. Here is a post concerning it:

e.g. that's the original:

- Znieść opłaty administracyjne przy zmianie obrządku prawosławnego na rzym.-kat

And that's translation:

- Cancel the administrative payment to the Orthodox rite priests.

original:
- Dopuścić ich do szkół podoficerskich

translation:
- to prevent them from joining Officer schools.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


That's true. One of the first destroyed Orthodox churches was the Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw

Some facts that were omitted:

- 66-70 percent of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics. The source of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XX c. was the Uniate Church (those 'nationally conscious' Ukrainians). Orthodox services were often conducted in Russian in Volhynia - that's why Piłsudski wanted to 'Ukrainise' Orthodox church there.

- There was negative attitude among Polish society towards Orthodoxes. Most probably because they were used by Russian government as instrument of Russification and took over Catholic Churches.

- When the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.

- In 1875, 375Uniate Churches were converted into Orthodox churches. At least 240Roman Catholic churches were converted into Orthodox too.


Polish 're-vindication campaign' (that is how they called it) can be seen as next stage of the conflict between Orthodoxes and Catholics (or perhaps even more directly Russian faith vs Polish faith, Russian sphere of influence vs. Polish sphere of influence).

Check CBOS research on how many people know anything about massacres in Volhynia.
Perhabs 'revindication' is not often discussed in public because of the same reason Volhynia 1943 isn't.

History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]


The point 14 of the Polish-Lithuanian 'Treaty on friendly relations and good neighbourly cooperation' signed in Vilnius on 26 September 1994, states clearly that members of ethnic minorities have right to use their given names and surnames in the form appropriate to the language of the ethnic minority.

Au minium, there shouldn't be any suffixes added.
Bilingual sings can/should be introduced in municipalities where more than 20 percent residents belong to a national minority (as for European Union). Similar sings are present in German,

Lemko (in Cyrillic),



Lithuanian



... inhabited areas in Poland. When it comes to Lithuania, there are forbidden even in Šalèininkai and Vilnius districts where Poles constitute respectively 79 and 61 percent of inhabitants.


So you want innocent people to have their rights limited and violated because of Polish-Ukrainian historical animosities and 'centuries old' grudges? Are you really such a narrow-minded person?

If I remember correctly, there was time when Orthodoxes oppressed Polish and Lithuanian Catholics/Uniates, and closed /destroyed/converted hundreds of Catholic and Uniate churches into Orthodox ones. Obviously Interbelum's Poles and Lithuanians (Orthodox churches were confiscated and destroyed also in Lithuania) strived to reverse that, and, without doubt, took revenge as well. If they reasoned like you, they would probably have slaughtered all Orthodoxes.

OUN's pamphlets were forbiden, but Szewczenko's works and Doroszenko's 'Narys istoriji Ukrajiny' published by Ukrainian Institute in Warsaw in the 30' or Orthodox, Church Slavonic bibles printed in Lviv in XVI, weren't.


According to the census, only 27,000 Polish citizens declared themselves as ethnic Ukrainians.


You have three Ukrainian programs in Polish public television (more than '26 minutes'/month). 'Ukraińskie wieści' is broadcasted every second Tuesday at around 6 p.m, 'Przegląd Ukraiński' - each weak, and 'Telenoviny' seems to be still aired.


That's hilarious :)
Jak odbierać ukraińskie media w Polsce
tryzub.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=447&Itemid=159

If you don't like Polish Public Television you can always take your own advice: buy a ticket and leave :) Seriously, there are far more valid accusations (in regards to treatment of ethnic minorities) against country of your origin.


Why don't you quote the rest of the text:


Do you know any sources confirming that Poles were granted better positions and access to education than Lithuanians? If not, stop manipulating please.

Stop writing about history :)

Genealogy / Polish-Ukranian roots and genes [72]


I'm glad that you've changed your mind. The number of population is irrelevant.


I don't think so called 'colonization' of Ukraine was state sponsored. It was free civilian migration to the sparsely populated areas.
And your magnates needed many hands to work the land. From where do you think they imported workforce? ;) Resettling of Ruthenian peasants would not have been enough.

Kievan Rus conquered a lot of land until 11th/12th century, including territories not inhabited by eastern Slavic tribes:




There are some interesting fragments in it. You wouldn't like it ;)


Subtelny doesn't give this information. It must be the peak of Kievan Rus' achievements.

Genealogy / Polish-Ukranian roots and genes [72]


'The Legendary Rus cities':


Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: a history, Toronto University Press- the book you recommended ;).


Kievan Rus wassparsely populated in comparison to western countries.


Paul Robert Magosci, A history of Ukraine, Toronto University Press

Another quote from Subtelny:



Ruthenians didn't differ much from other 'barbarians':


Vladimir I of Kiev
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I_of_Kiev


The Crusades, Helen J. Nicholson, Greenwood

Travel / Poland wildlife and similar wild life where you live. [243]

It's green woodpecker.
He stays in Poland whole year. Beautiful bird :)

Life / Do you think that Polish people are rude? [951]

Yeah, with arrogance like that there is no way you aren't British ;-)