Life / Why do majority of Polish are afraid to admit their nationality? [28]


The stereotype is that Polish people established in a place (outside Poland) have a tendency to .... prey upon new arrivals. And there is certainly some truth to that. If you remember when Poland joined the EU and Polish people started arriving in numbers in the UK there were lots of stories of people getting cheated by friendly Poles they met just as they got off the bus.

Personally I've noticed when I've been abroad with Poles they seem uninterested in other Poles whose paths they cross. An American in a foreign country who hears an American voice will often say a quick 'hello' while Poles mostly don't.

Life / Why do majority of Polish are afraid to admit their nationality? [28]


IME most Polish people aren't interested in meeting new people by chance. They prefer to meet new people through people that they already know. Also, Polish people especially do not seek out other Polish people when abroad (and guidebooks often explicitly advise Poles moving abroad to avoid other Poles). I could easily imagine that a stranger coming up them in public speaking oddly accented Polish (if you've been away 12 years) would set off the warning bells.

UK, Ireland / A Brit moving to Warsaw with his Polish wife [12]


I think being a woman with a wife might have something to do with that. There are many great things about living in Poland but the treatment of same sex relationships is definitely not one of them (except for closet cases since most Poles have no gaydar whatsoever).

I'm sure that Poland will catch up eventually but at present the level of pubic debate on the issue is stupefyingly awful.

@jon18343,

It might help to have a word or three with the wife ahead of time and remind her that even though you've been here before, you still have a lot to learn and she needs to let you know when you're going off course (in a non-hostile way). A code word might help that she could use to let you know to stop whatever it is you're doing and just sit there until she can explain what's happening.

Staying with the family is a mixed bag. You'll learn lots of practical Polish and having relatives stay for months on end is no big deal here but you might find yourself missing some privacy. If you don't have safe places to go in Warsaw to be by yourself you'll want to find some right away. It's liable to become an issue for you and one your wife is liable to not understand.

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]


What, you no understand? You drivin' me crazy, you!

Anyway, if your typical Brit hears that there are jobs in Poland that require Polish people living in their own country to speak a foreign language (English) they probably think that's great.

If they find out about a job that almost no British person wants that's in Britain and English isn't mandatory (not prohibited, just not necessary) then the sky is falling.

If understanding not serious on make how. you not at all is. I not how to sure make clear it.

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]


Yeah, I noticed that. It's that double standard again.

(I'd actually translate it as "No English (language) required" or "(Knowlede of English) not necessary" but that's a quibble.)

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]


See? You have the same double standard! One standard for English speakers and another for all the rest. English speakers expect to be deferred to and get huffy when they aren't.

As far as I can tell, this company is happy with Polish workers and wants more of them so it offers training in Polish and does not seek out other nationalities very much. Demand, meet supply.

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]

British people have not historically minded when others are forced to speak English and/or discriminated against in hiring if they don't.

Actually, if you keep up with this forum, you'll find that there are many (not all, maybe not most but many) British people who live in Poland and expect anyone and everyone they come into contact with in Poland to speak English and often get miffed when people don't or won't. I've known ones who were upset that the Polish government makes them fill out forms in Poilish.

Why should anyone feel bad about this trivial little case?

What I think is probably going on: They have a good record with Polish workers and they have enough Polish applicants that it makes sense to have training in that language (for safety purposes*). I wouldn't be surprised if the real people they're trying to keep out aren't native British but other immigrant groups whose work records aren't as good.

*I remember in the movie Fast Food Nation how they had Mexicans in a meat packing factory watch safety training films in English, a language they mostly didn't speak.

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]


I'm not bitter at all, I'm a realist. People who get angry about this mostly do so because they have a language double standard.

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]


No. I'm not Polish either (though I do speak Polish).


The British public gets an inkling of what life is like for billions of people around the world who are discriminated against because they don't know some language well enough. Think of it as an opportunity for personal and societal growth.

UK, Ireland / No job unless you're Polish [201]

I'm sure this is being blown out of proportion and there's more to the story than being reported.

But, even if it weren't it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. The world is full of language prejudice and situations where native speakers are discriminated against in their own counties.

Why shouldn't English speakers experience a taste of that? They've dealt it out enough.

History / Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Serbia- segmented. Who is next? Poland? [90]


define illegal (especially since AFAICT almost all of them had yugoslav citizenship).

History / The Gustloff - one of the worst maritime disasters that seemed to never have happened [66]


That's pretty much always the case. Generally soldiers prefer shooting at civilians (since other soldiers are more likely to fire back).

History / The Gustloff - one of the worst maritime disasters that seemed to never have happened [66]

Recently saw a (not very good) fictionalized German movie based on this incident.

imdb.com/title/tt0991156/

It should be available in dvd rental places in Poland (and was shown on Polish tv). In German, so not for the Polish challenged.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Odd. Is it related to szewc (cobbler)? Is it an old alternate plural?

Judging by ghits, it does appear that the alternate form 'Szewc' is also in common usage.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


I'm pretty sure that all the plural toponyms ending in -ce in Polish are actually neuter (or feminine?) at any rate, the expected genetive plural is - zero.

Food / Do you call it kiszka or kaszanka? [55]

If I remember right (no guarantee that I do) in Wrocław, kiszka refers to a kind of kebab. I seem to remember a ton of kiszka stands in and around the train station.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

I see a problem here in that people are trying to carry over the gender of the singular into the plural and Polish just doesn't work like that.

Basically if a language has both gender and number there are a few ways they may be distributed, in Polish different criteria apply for determining gender in the singular and plural.

In terms of government, adjective and verb agreement, Polish has four genders in the singular and two in the plural.

singular:
masc. animate
masc. inanimate
neuter
feminine

plural
masculine-personal
non-masculine-personal

The distinction in the plural is between noun phrases that include the following semantic features:

+human
+male
+adult
+plural

and those that don't.

That is if a noun phrase modified by an adjective or a noun phrase used as the subject of a verb contains all those features then it's masculine-personal (męskoosobowy) and if it doesn't, then it isn't. There are some borderline cases where different people disagree but that's the broad rule.

Slight complication: sometimes the genetive plural is substituted for the nominative but that's a question for a different post.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Not in everyday, mainstream usage it doesn't. Specialist vocabulary takes on different meanings and can generate new forms that aren't part of mainstream usage.

If you go around speaking to non-specialists saying things like:

"That movie is set in outer spaces." or "That new telescope can see further out into the cosmoses than ever before."

People will understand you, but you'll sound weird and the great majority of native speakers (let's say 98% give or take a few points) won't produce those sequences naturally.


Okay, usually a collective singular noun is made up of a set of potentially discrete individuals of the same class.

family = individuals of the same species
team = players on the same side
herd = (usually fourfooted) animals (usually) of the same species

furniture is an odd duck, kind of a collective, but made up of individuals of different classes (chairs, tables, beds etc) it's more a cover term like 'mammals' but for hard to determine reasons remains stubbornly non-count for native speakers.

space in the classic sense doesn't necessarily refer to celestial bodies, but the matter between them. ('outer space' might refer to celestial bodies and the matter between them and cosmos might, but the plain word 'space' even in the SF meaning doesn't. The planets and stars etc are _in_ space (like islands in an ocean) and not part of it.

I'm not a semanticist and I'm rapidly reaching the end of what I can confidently say on the subject without working out a theoretical model or doing some checking on references and I don't have the slightest intention of doing either :)

On the other hand, the very well known (in linguistics) Polish born Australian semanticist Anna Wierzbicka has written a lot on the boundaries in English between individual items and collective and substance nouns that address a lot of these issues. If you're interested look her stuff up. She's not the easiest read in the world but she's far from the worst writer in linguistics (that would be Chomsky, Noam who's writing is disorganized, opaque and aimed only at those who follow his work obsessively).

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

collective usually means a group of things, government (in the American sense), family (a set of related individuals), herd (a group individual animals). They're all singular and can take the indefinite article and have plurals. Again singular is a meaningless concept unless there's a plural (that's a technical point of linguistics - no contrast, no category)

Space is more a substance like milk or air.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Not to pull rank or anything, but I am a linguist... It's not a collective singular (some popular teaching materials might use that kind of terminology but it's not really accurate here).

I do agree that 'spaces' (in the meaning of 'outer space') is not normally pluralized. If it were, it could only mean (for me):

a) different dimensions (as in SF)

b) different parts of the cosmos

'cosmoses' just can't exist in my dialect without some kind of SF meaning (I can imagine it as astrophysics jargon or something like that, but jargon and everyday usage are two separate things).

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Technically they're not singular (which can only exist in opposition to 'plural') they're non-count, which means they have no number. They take singular verbs but can't be used with the indefinite article (required in some cases for true singular nouns).

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

One problem is that there are many, many words in English that can be used as count or non-count with a large or small difference in meaning.

In the case of space:

space, count = a particular place, reserved for something; part of a surface marked off on more than one side; (more rearely) an item on a list

space, non-count = a) a dimension (not the right word, but close enough) b) the cosmos beyond the earths atmosphere

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


In English,

radio, non-count = that which is broadast over the radio set
radio, count = electronic device used to listen to radio broadcasts

There's similar usage in Polish.


Well, the sources I've seen suggest 'radioodbiornik' or 'odbiornik radiowy' for radio(set), but some people do use 'radio' for the object and suggest that 'radiów' is the preferred genetive plural.


You're taking away the wrong message here. The right message is that for forms that are very rare but theoretically possible Polish speakers can come up with more than one possible way that's clear and unambiguous. They are not necessarily sure about which one is approved of by grammar authorities, who might argue among themselves as well.

In other words, 4 different ways for describing a phenomenon that is not likely to ever be needed is not a sign of linguistic inefficiency or poverty. It is a sign of richness and flexibility.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Piec radiów, what's the problem. The form pięc radio also exists but wouldn't be accepted by most authorities.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


uh ..... who counts milk? other folks in your therapy group?

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


I'll take that bet. How much?

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Actually the Ukrainian sound in question (Which does show up where Polish has 'g') is more like the gamma in Modern Greek before a, o or u (or g between vowels in Spanish as in hago). It's more of a voiced velar fricative.

Depending on the transliteration/transcription used, it's romanized as h or g.

see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_transliteration

and

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Latin_alphabet

and

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Ukrainian_alphabet

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


Some reasons for this:

1. most beginning courses don't spend any time on intonation (incredibly important in spoken English and knowing about it will help your writing too). It's hard so it's left out. Other nuances like the count/non-count distinction and the meaning of articles are also left out. After a few years of learning, it's too late - most learners have fossilized bad usage so they have to unlearn a lot of what they think they know (and unlearning is harder than learning).

2. a lot of what is included in basic courses isn't real ..... English (any variety). It's a made up artificial version of the language that doesn't match anyone's real usage.

3. many learners take a 'who cares? it's only English!' approach. this is a direct result of mass learning by fiat - many learners just don't care and think any words they string together are fine as long as they're understood. To an extent they're right, but they shouldn't call the dumbed down pidgin that they use 'English'.


Well the _sound_ of h in old Polish was probably the same (more or less) as the current Czech h, but I've never heard any speakers that distinguish ch and h. Also, Polish speakers tend to hear Czech h as Polish ch.

Supposedly there are some dialects in the east or southeast that still distinguish ch and h but again, I've never heard them.

This is different from the old ł cause I have heard some older or kresowy speakers with the old 'stage ł', although they tend to not use it 100 % of the time and alternate it with the modern, mainstream pronunciation.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]



Actually Czech 'h' usually corresponds with Polish 'g'

hlavni = glowny, hlas = glos, kniha = ksiega etc

Work / Why Poland employers are afraid of hiring any foreign nationals? [171]

Any top notch English program needs both local teachers and native speakers of whatever language is being taught. Ignoring one side or the other is .... not good.

Students also benefit from both (if not at the same time then at different times). Ideally local and native-speaking teachers can complement each other as they tend to have different strengths and weaknesses.