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Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Serbia- segmented. Who is next? Poland?


Crow 160 | 11,052
12 Mar 2010 #1
In a time that preceded to spread of EU and expansion of NATO, we entered in era that would be remembered by segmentation of Slavic countries.

First it was Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Then, it was continued with Serbia and these days people too often speak, having in mind rumors in case with Silesia, about Poland, as next victim of EU globalization.

Well, what is this? Shall we conclude that process of EU expansion including segmentation of Slavic countries as a rule?

What people here think about this subject? i found that this topic deserve serious discussion.
Darun 1 | 55
12 Mar 2010 #2
You're exagerating by believing that it has something to do with "slavic" nations. Somehow, EU has the opposite effect of what was expected of it, and somehow encourages "micro-nations" and separatism in many countries. I guess that on a larger scale it's easier to deal with small entities and subdue them, that with bigger one. The classic divide and conquer.

(I wonder who's more "paranoic" between the two of us :D).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #3
I can guarantee you that there would be an uprising if the EU started meddling with Silesia, Crow. These people wouldn't stand for it. There is a Polish representative from Zabrze-Gliwice who occupies a high position in the EU (Jerzy Bużek?). He would fight it til the very end.
OP Crow 160 | 11,052
13 Mar 2010 #4
I wonder who's more "paranoic" between the two of us

Its not only us

spot this...



If i understand well (Polish language is similar to Serbian but isn`t same), guy who speaks here said that `today he protest because of defense of Serbia and tomorrow it could be in defense of Poland`

read this...

Eastern Europe After Kosovo; Splintered Unity: Polish Politics and the Crisis

by Konstanty Gebert
1.law.nyu.edu/eecr/vol8num3/feature/splintered.html

Nationalist Jan Lopuszanski, of a small Catholic right-wing group, made his warning even more explicit. If, today, NATO's putative right to be a judge of other nations and their governments and to enforce these decisions by way of violence is recognized, this right may tomorrow be directed against any nation in the world, Poland included, he warned. He apparently forgot, among other things, that Poland was now a NATO member.

Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #5
'Serbs are fighting for us in Kosovo. In the fullest sense, they are fighting for us, for all Europeans. We are protesting here today in Warsaw so that we don't have to defend Warsaw tomorrow. Belgrade-Warsaw, a common matter'.

Serbs are fighting for their own :) That's what he said at the beginning.

Tomorrow, Silesia, LOL. Just try it!!!
OP Crow 160 | 11,052
13 Mar 2010 #6
Tomorrow, Silesia, LOL. Just try it!!!

Balkan Serbs faces three main problems:

1. German imperialism,
2. Islamic expansionism and,
3. USA strategic interests

Now, seams that all three using EU and NATO as a tool, plus Islamic fanatics (mujaheedines) when possible.

In Silesia, Poland at least doesn`t need to deal with direct mujaheedine invasion. At least, for now.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #7
Bring them here and I'll learn how to snipe very quickly. My friend lives in the biggest city in Upper Silesia. He is an American and would pick them off one-by-one.

I think the whole Croatia issue stumped Poles, Crow. There are some alliances there. They might take their side in some matters. Poles didn't want to side against them. I'm lucky enough to teach a very smart Polish legal adviser. He makes it very clear just how important the RCC is. Orthodox is seen as Russian and thus disliked by hardline Catholics. Still, I see very clearly as a Scot that we need to bridge gaps. I studied NI and internment etc etc. Religion divided people, CHRISTIANS who sought to further dilute themselves so they could fight one another. It cannot be this way.
OP Crow 160 | 11,052
13 Mar 2010 #8
I think the whole Croatia issue stumped Poles, Crow.

no, you didn`t understand

When Yugoslav crisis started, so called west just tried to manipulate with Polish negative emotions on Russians, when initially wanted to neutralize traditional Polish pro-Serbian stance. But, it proved to be failure. Catholic Poles simple don`t see Orthodox Serbs as anti-Polish, only because they are Orthodox. Its because Poles knows the other name for Orthodox Serbs and that name is RACOWIE.

Actually, when Croatia started media campaign and anti-Serbian propaganda basically manipulating with fact that Serbs are Orthodox and, as Croatian side stated `that Serbs wage religious war against Catholic Croats`, some Serbs had fear that Catholic Poles might be confused. Here, some Serbs underestimated Poles. But, as time proved... its not easy to confuse Poles.

Those were biggest Polish Catholics who reminded Polish public what was the meaning of Racowie (Orthodox Serbs from Balkan) in Polish history. Pope John Paul himself was hijacked by Polish pro-NATO leadership while tried to defend Serbs and Yugoslavia.

Memories of World War II (when Yugoslavia took a gallant if doomed stance, as Poland had done, and the Serbs had fought mainly on the Allied side, while Croats fought mainly for the Axis) were also a significant factor. Historical memory, in fact, proved more important than religious solidarity.Croatia's Catholicism did not much allay Poles' historical mistrust of the former German ally, nor did the Serbs' superficial similarities to Russians, in creed and script, reduce Polish sympathies. When Polish troops joined UNPROFOR, Belgrade expressed concern that their Catholicism would make them biased. They need not have worried. Accusations of bias soon poured out of Zagreb. The Serbs' one-against-all stand also endeared them to Polish hearts.

law.nyu.edu/eecr/vol8num3/feature/splintered.html

Germany created problem between Serbia and Croatia when interrupted political process in Yugoslavia and recognized Croatia within borders that were created by communists. If we had peaceful process of dissolution it would be similar as in case of Czechoslovakia. But no, Germany didn`t want that. Then, pro-German elements in Croatia started propaganda... and what they done first... they painted Serbs in media as hardcore communist, that way anti-democratic /German part in plan was to use anti-Serbian propaganda and spread it via EU/NATO machinery/ ... when picture of `Serbs as hardcore communists` was exhausted as some kind `deux as mahuna` Croatian media (German, so called west media) started to portrait Serbs as deep anti Catholics. After that started stories about Serbs as Russian allay... plan was isolation of Serbs from Slavic West. BUT, not only isolation of Serbs but also the opposite- isolation of Slavic West from Serbian influence, what needed to prevent that truth about EU/NATO become obvious to Poles and Czechs. Its because so called west has plans for Poland and rather wants that Poles aren`t aware of situation.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #9
Crow, people are divided and the government has taken their stand. The Czech and Polish governments recognised Kosovo and people have mixed allegiances. I'm aware of the manipulation you speak of but I live here and feel the sentiment in many. I don't think the Serbian cause was well enough presented and that's partly because Serbia didn't take an active enough interest in selling its case.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,019
13 Mar 2010 #10
Crow, people are divided and the government has taken their stand. The Czech and Polish governments recognised Kosovo and people have mixed allegiances.

I agree with that, if more people would be well informed then more would been more positive towards being with Serbia. I myself weren't much pro any side just a little tiny little inch towards Croatia since their catholic. But after the connections of Poland and Serbia ive read from Crow I changed my mind
Darun 1 | 55
13 Mar 2010 #11
I don't think the Serbian cause was well enough presented and that's partly because Serbia didn't take an active enough interest in selling its case.

I think it was very well represented later at the International Court of Justice. You should read some of the pro-Serbian arguments of the delegations, they are quite interesting

icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=1&k=21&case=141&code= kos&p3=1
I can hardly wait for the rulling. I have my eyes on the ICJ's website all the time. I was really sorry that Poland pleaded for Kosovo.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,295
13 Mar 2010 #12
Crow, people are divided and the government has taken their stand. The Czech and Polish governments recognised Kosovo and people have mixed allegiances.

I agree but the mass murders committed by Serbs (I know, it's all propaganda Crow isn't it? ;) didn't help the Serb cause. ALL sides were guilty of attrocities but the Serbs took the price due to the size of the former Yugoslav army, a primarily pro-Serbian entity.

Yugoslavia was a "fake" country to begin with created by the Western powers after WWI. Better divorce than a bad and an abusive marriage.

The abuse of the Kosovo minority was plain stupid. Had the Serbs tried to grant them more autonomy and respected their basic right (in reality and NOT in words and empty declarations) Kosovo would still be part of Serbia today. I'm no fan of Kosovo Muslim fanatics and they too committed many crimes against the Serbs but instead of being smart Serbs chose to rely on Russia and said "all or nothing." Well, they got nothing in the end. Heck, even Montenegrins got fed up with the Serbs.

I doubt Poland needs to fear losing Śląsk however maybe Vojvodina will follow Montenegro in the future? Hopefully your countrymen and women have learned from past mistakes...
Torq
13 Mar 2010 #13
You really need to get a grip of yourself, Crow.

Województwo Dolnośląskie (Lower Silesia) has 2.87 million people, overwhelming majority
of whom are Polish. There aren't any siginificant ethnic or religious minorities there
(only about 2 thousand Germans).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Silesian_Voivodeship

Województwo Opolskie (Opole Siliesia) - 1.06 million people, they have a significant
German minority of 0.1 million.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opole_Voivodeship

Województwo Śląskie (Upper Silesia) - in the population of 4.74 million there is a tiny
German minority of about 30 thousand. Also, in the last census 173 thousand people
in Silesia declared Silesian nationality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Voivodeship

German Minority in Poland:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_minority_in_Poland

So, to sum things up:

In the entire region of Silesia (Lower Silesia, Upper Silesia and Opole Silesia)
we have 8.67 million people, out of which about 0.132 million are Germans
and 0.173 million are Silesians. So the minorities in Silesia put together
constitute about 3.5% of the population.
That's why all the people who think that this tiny minority is going to start
some sort of an uprising against the 96.5% Polish majority need a serious
reality check :-)
OP Crow 160 | 11,052
13 Mar 2010 #14
So, to sum things up:

nice.

but what about mega trends? what if Germany decide to play role in Silesia as was her role in case of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

You could be surprised what chaos is Germany capable to produce with entire NATO and EU behind itself.

when we are on that, please, inform me about nature of internal borders of Poland, between provinces. Are those historical borders or borders drown by communists and, were some of Polish provinces internationally recognized before new Poland was formed in 1918?
Torq
13 Mar 2010 #15
but what about mega trends? what if Germany decide to play role in Silesia
as was her role in case of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

But Germans already got what they wanted for their 0.15 million minority in Poland.
They have full minority rights and are, by and large, loyal citizens of Poland.
What other things do you have in mind, Crow? They are a tiny minority after all.

You could be surprised what chaos is Germany capable to produce with entire NATO and EU behind itself.

Yeah, but the trick is - we are in NATO and EU too :-)

when we are on that, please, inform me about nature of internal borders of Poland, between provinces. Are those historical borders or borders drown by communists and, were some of Polish provinces internationally recognized before new Poland was formed in 1918?

The current administrative division of Poland is loosely based on historical regions.
The borders between vojvodships were artificially created during the last reform of
administration in 1999. The number of vojwodships was changed in the past (we used
to have 49 vojwodships) and it can be changed any time in the future - purely
administrative decision.
OP Crow 160 | 11,052
13 Mar 2010 #16
Yeah, but the trick is - we are in NATO and EU too :-)

yes, it is shortcut to oblivion.

Internally > Now, outside Polish borders belong to EU and NATO. NATO could even take responsibility for order in Poland on itself.
Internationally > NATO knows all about Poland`s military potentials. Then, NATO leading powers could use Polish territory as their own shield in case of war with Russia. NATO can sold Poland to anyone who offer more then Poland. Etc, etc

Nationalist Jan Lopuszanski, of a small Catholic right-wing group, made his warning even more explicit.If, today, NATO's putative right to be a judge of other nations and their governments and to enforce these decisions by way of violence is recognized, this right may tomorrow be directed against any nation in the world, Poland included, he warned. He apparently forgot, among other things, that Poland was now a NATO member.

law.nyu.edu/eecr/vol8num3/feature/splintered.html

But Germans already got what they wanted for their 0.15 million minority in Poland.

and historically Germany are trustworthy partner? Is that what you want to say?

at least Serbs are and, what they got from official Poland? Sh**

Let us speak openly,... its already evident that Polish national interests retreat in front of German ambitions. Isn`t it? Polish recognition of Kosovo is just one of examples. What is next?

the borders between vojvodships were artificially created during last reform of
administration.

same situation existed in Yugoslavia in time when Croatian and Bosnian Muslim leadership decided to separate from Yugoslavia. So Serbia and Montenegro, wanted dialogue about borders but, Germany interrupted political process and recognized Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina within their administrative borders. Logically, local Serbs Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina then declared that they don`t consider itself separated but that they want to stay in Yugoslavia.... Croatian and Bosnian Muslims paramilitary troops attacked local Serbs and we got Civil War. EU/NATO powers supported borders recognized previously by Germany and local Serbs were labeled as rebel forces and state of Serbia, only because of political support to them, as aggressor on Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. NATO troops reacted on the behalf of Croatian and Bosnian Muslim leadership. Serbs were demonized in media and even use of mujaheedines (that NATO transported in the region) against Serbs was authorized.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
13 Mar 2010 #17
If I ask like this:

Can you show any signs of this?

No one wants to divide Poland into 2 countries.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #18
Crow is right to try and establish a German connection, Torq. The relatives of my wife's parents are German and some of them would like Germany to have first dibs on Silesia. Look at BB, there are many others like him that would like to see Silesia 'restored' as they see it. I have seen the German presence for myself but I must say that it is minimal.

On a macro scale, globalists want big unions so they can more easily manage the masses with a concerted and unified bunch of policies. However, those troublesome little questions haven't escaped their attention. They will still sort out sticking points at the micro level. I just think that Silesia is too micro for them and they won't go near it. Although I don't condone what was done to Germans after WWII, I can understand the sentiment that led to it. Certain people have learned their lesson.
Harry
13 Mar 2010 #19
Croatian and Bosnian Muslims paramilitary troops attacked local Serbs and we got Civil War.

No you lying little sh!t: the snipers firing at the peace march from Sarajevo Holiday Inn were Serbs. You start wars and then claim to be the innocent victims thereof; just as you commit genocide and then claim to be the real victims of genocide. Until your country can face up to its many and serious crimes, it won't be welcome in the civilised world.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #20
Harry, I'm amazed that you can only see one side of the story. There was a bit of jip on both sides but you can blame power-hungry leaders on all sides.
convex 20 | 3,978
13 Mar 2010 #21
Czechs and Slovaks are not the same people, hell, Czechs and Moravians are different people. 99% of people supported the split. Good neighbors share TV shows and trade with one another, no borders. No problems at all. But, happy to have their own countries.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
13 Mar 2010 #22
The problem in Western Europe is lack of integration. Not necessarily the number of immigrants.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #23
Those from Brno would likely agree with you, convex. I was there and they were 'different'.

It's a little similar to Serbs and Montenegrans. The latter broke off from the former in 2006.

Is Andorra really needed? ;) ;)
convex 20 | 3,978
13 Mar 2010 #24
The problem in Western Europe is lack of integration. Not necessarily the number of immigrants.

It's a problem of multiculturalism. The immigrants never have a need to integrate and end up finding themselves second class citizens due to the warm embrace of being different, instead of the idea that we're all the same.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #25
Well, they set up parallel societies like microcosms. It's that way in Aberdeen, the Indians have their own little enclaves.

Czechs and Slovaks are distinct enough.

The division of Yugoslavia was logical enough in a globalist context. Imagine if Tudjman and Milosevic had been allowed to slice up Bosnia. Communist Tito was enough, they didn't need another commie and a fascist at the helm of a large part of Europe. This is in their eyes.
Torq
13 Mar 2010 #26
and historically Germany are trustworthy partner? Is that what you want to say?

Politics is not about history (well, it is to some extent, of course, but it isn't a decisive
factor) and at the moment - yes, I believe Germans are a trustworthy partner and
Poland gets a lot of benefits from that partnership and our decent relations with Germany.

at least Serbs are and, what they got from official Poland? Sh**

What would you like to get from us, Crow? In exchange for what? Be more specific, please.

same situation existed in Yugoslavia in time when Croatian and Bosnian Muslim leadership decided to separate from Yugoslavia.

NO, it is not the same situation, Crow :-) It isn't even remotely similar.

Yugoslavia was a melting pot of many nationalities, Poland is a homogenous country
and even in Silesia, where we have the largest minorities (German and Silesian),
Poles constitute a 96.5% majority.

Crow is right to try and establish a German connection, Torq.

No, he isn't.

The relatives of my wife's parents are German and some of them would like Germany to have first dibs on Silesia.

The relatives of the relatives of my wife's friend's friend are Polish and some of them would
like Poland to have first dibs on Lwów.

Look at BB, there are many others like him that would like to see Silesia 'restored' as they see it.

I don't think BB would like to see Silesia 'restored'. He's a smart fella.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #27
Politics isn't about history? Torq, you have time to edit that. In Poland's case, it very much is. In many other countries too.

96.5% seems about right, Torq, maybe even higher at 98% I'd pitch it. There are many who are mistakenly described as German but they are Silesian.

Aha, I wrote it badly. I meant that in the sense that there is a presence which is undeniable. The Polish government was nice enough to keep road signs in German in Lower Silesia.
Torq
13 Mar 2010 #28
Politics isn't about history?

It is, but only to some extent. If it was mainly about history, we would have never
allied ourselves to Germany, for example.

96.5% seems about right, Torq, maybe even higher at 98%

That's 96.5% in Silesia, something closer to 98-99% in the rest of the country.

The Polish government was nice enough to keep road signs in German in Lower Silesia.

Lower Silesia?

The only places in Poland where there is a German minority significant enough to have
signs in German are in Województwo Opolskie (Opole Silesia). There are no such signs
that I know of in the Upper Silesia and certainly not in the Lower Silesia which is almost
100% Polish (there is only about 2 thousand Germans living there amongst
2.9 million Poles).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
13 Mar 2010 #29
I'm sure there is a politics-history equivalent of Critical Legal Studies (CLS) which explores the symbiotic nature of Law and Politics. That extent is pretty high.

96.5% overall perhaps. However, the presence isn't so visible in Upper Silesia. You won't see signs like 'Wilkommen en Hindenburg' or 'Wilkommen en Konigshutte'.
Torq
13 Mar 2010 #30
However, the presence isn't so visible in Upper Silesia.

And even less visible in Lower Silesia, Seanus :-) Opole area - it's the only German wasp nest in Poland ;)

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