History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


Maybe Poles aren't good at "cold blooded real politik"? ;)
What I meant was: after Austria and Czechoslovakia Hitler seemed to be always "hungry" for land. I really doubt that even if Poland gave Danzig, etc. Hiler wouldn't come for more.


Well, I think Poland was making some preparations in case of war with Third Reich but I don't think anybody suspected that the Soviet Union would also invade Poland.


I don't know! ;)


It was a Russian point of view on what you wrote so it was related.
As far as raping girls and nailing them on barn doors is concerned - he could read about this many times before from Poles, me included ;/


In my opinion it's just a way of justifying what Hitler and Stalin did. Poland didn't ask for war. Nobody told Hitler to invade Poland and start a war because of one city.


I think that many governments failed at that time. Even those who were in a more comfortable situation than Poland. They failed to stop Hitler when it was time. They were too selfish and distrustful of one another.

And nobody could know the future...


Why? Both Poland and those countries were occupied. So why the difference?


Is it so difficult to answer my question? ;)

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


I'm still not surprised that Polish authorities didn't trust Hitler.


Well, he's not my "friend". Funny that he called me your friend too :)
As far is denying is concerned - how does this matter in our discussion?


Then the more sane choice, let's say, would be to become an ally of the Soviet Union, and not Third Reich. Why would you write in the first place that Poland should become an ally of Hitler?


The fact that he wanted to negotiate doesn't say anything about what he would do after that. And as he was pretty much insane... :/


Why? If those countries were also occupied then what you mean by "didn't fare as bad as Poland"?


I'm not asking a German of the 30s and 40s :/ I'm asking you...

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]

I'm no historian. So how do you know this? Could you share any links?


Should I repeat this to him?


For example, that Poland should become an ally of Third Reich or neutral which would make it easier for Hitler to invade the Soviet Union.


And you?

EDIT:


And rightly so ;)

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]

BB, I told about what you wrote here in this thread to some Russians from the internet. One of them (a son of a WW2 veteran) called you an ordinary facist scum and invited you to Sankt Petersburg to look at Piskariowski cemetery and some other places :P He wrote that nobody will hurt you there anymore so you can come ;) (I just repeat what he wanted to say to you :P).

I wrote to them that you're not a facist, but I'm not sure how to support this anymore ;P
So, could you explain why do you write such things...

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


How do you know this?


Even if, that could mean the defeat of the Soviet Union and occupation of it's territories, like in Poland. So what about all those Russians, Jews and other nationalities who would die and suffer in the result of this?

History / Digital reconstruction of Warszawa - Miasto Ruin - rebuilding the destroyed Warsaw [31]

Thanks for the link, pgtx!


I was in the museum not so long ago when I visited Warsaw... What a shame I missed it, they could do it earlier, pfff ;)))

Genealogy / Krupski name [36]


Perhaps "Junkiewicz"?

Here's a map where you can find people with this surname in Poland: moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/junkiewicz.html


Well, could be something like: "Dzimitrowicz": moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/dzimitrowicz.html

Or Dziatkowicz (less probable, I guess): moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/dziatkowicz.html

A wild guess ;)

Genealogy / Searching for relatives in Poland: Sobczak, Rutkowska, Jawainck [6]


Yes, that would be helpful, I think ;)

Genealogy / Searching for relatives in Poland: Sobczak, Rutkowska, Jawainck [6]


Well, there are such surnames in Poland if this is what you mean ;)

Sobczak surname in Poland (28639 people with this surname) - a map: mapa/kompletny/sobczak.

Rutkowski surname in Poland (20569 people with this surname) - a map: mapa/kompletny/rutkowski.

Love / 'Battered husbands' - still a taboo subject in Poland [387]


O_____O'

You had some traumatic experiences in Poland... My God...

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


I will - after I die :)


I wrote that some Poles can't forgive them allying with Hitler against Poland.
But that's not everything, of course - there is Katyń, gulags, Syberia and 50 years of communist "paradise" in the shadow of Soviet Union...


I'm like that with Russians and Poles, so don't feel discriminated ;)

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


Annoy and aggravate... :) What a reason for war... :)
BB, be serious :)
You wrote yourself:


So, I have an impression which I often get with Russians trying to justify what Stalin did - blame the victim. The easiest way...


As I wrote - I don't think it could be avoided.


No, BB, there was no such a big war (world war, you know) in which civilians would be targeted like this and would die in such numbers. It was a terrible war and the inhumanity of the Nazis and their ideology is almost proverbial in Poland.


It's easy to say this, when you know what happened :)


I give a sh'it :) If I didn't give a sh'it - it would mean I don't care :) But I care ("I give a sh'it" in English, as far as I know).


BB, I don't force anybody to do anything :) It's my opinion.


I'm a Christian - so I believe there is something worse than death. But it's my opinion and I don't force anybody to do anything.


I can't - it's the way I am, sorry... :P


?

BB, if you like it or not - only few Poles would agree that Poles should ally with Hitler. For many - it's unthinkable.


I know, some Poles still aren't able to forgive them that...

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


And you advocate the worst choice that there could be :)


Deflection and being defensive now? ;)
You think that in my opinion it was OK?


Poles didn't actually intend to wipe out a nation and have other nation as slaves...


I can imagine something worse - Polish soldiers hand in hand with the Nazi soldiers.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


Or subjects.


:)
Russians say the same :) Only that they argue that Poland should ally with the Soviet Union :)))
And Poles say that it would be like a choice between dżuma (plague) and cholera (cholera) :)
Such a choice is no choice, really...
Even if... I'd go for the Soviet Union...


Do you think that those people would like the idea of their compatriots colaborating with people who treated them as animals and killed them without a blink of an eye? Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals didn't have a choice - to colaborate or not to colaborate. They were simply killed.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


Oh yeah, the Japanese were even worse than the Nazis, as I've heard... Great example...


BB... For Hitler and the Nazis Slavs were sub-humans and were supposed to be slaves of the German nation. Except for some Polish children who could be introduced into German families and become "germanised".

Poles were higher on "the ladder" than Jews but lower than Western nations, and far lower than Germans, of course.
The French had their resistance and Poles had their resistance. Then why occupation in France and other Western countries was so different than in Poland and in the East? I've watched some documentary (not Polish) and it was said there that Hitler admired Paris, it's architecture and art. Slavs were some primitive savages fot the Nazis and were treated as such.


I think that example of Austria nad Czechoslovakia shows that Hitler wouldn't be satisfied with just a piece of Polish territory if he saw that neither the West nor the Soviet Union would do anything to stop him.


What do you mean?


Yeah, I've heard some veterans there still march in the SS uniforms... (and I've seen photos)


I wouldn't like for my country and my countrymen to colaborate with the Nazis.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


I don't think so... As you wrote Hitler needed Poland to place his troops and he wanted to destroy the Soviet Union. So sooner or later he would find a reason to attack Poland. He would see that the West won't do anything about it and he would do it.

Now, let's say Poland would ally with Third Reich and let the Nazi army go through Polish land to attack the Soviet Union. Firstly, that would in the long run mean the loss of independence for Poland. And there would be no Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and the Soviet Union would have no time to prepare for war. I don't know if it would change anything. Russians claim that it would. And what if Hitler defeated the Soviet Union - the main ally of Great Britain and the US?

It's just speculation, but I really doubt Hitler would be satisfied only with Danzig.


Well... We're not talking about Germans now, are we...


Czechoslovakia was a small country. France? France fought, no? It was occupied, yes?
BB, I doubt anyone could even imagine at that time what a "nazi occupation in Poland" would mean. Really...


They were quite fond of the nazi ideology, as I've heard... You know what happened to a big part of Estonian population after the war? You know why there are so many Russians there?


Because they colaborated and weren't Slavic countries :S

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


What can I say... It's your opinion :) I disagree.


No petty games, my questions were serious.


It feels like you are...


I have no idea. Probably not. But BB... Third Reich attacked Poland. Not the other way round. Why shouldn't Poles defend themselves when their country was attacked?


Why do you care?


:)
You know, I've seen many discussions between Poles and Russians concerning this issue :) I usually stayed away and observed the discussion.
I'm sure about one thing - nazi ideology was worse than communist ideology. It was inhumane. And 5 years of nazi occupation was far worse than 50 years of Soviet occupation.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]

BB... Western and Stalin's real politik disgust me. The same is with Polish politicians who took a part of Czechoslovakia when they had "the opportunity".


If you say so :)


Whom do I judge?


What am I pretending?


Maybe. But I know what I would like to feel and do.


And it is free now too :)


So in your opinion because the chihuahua was yapping the bigger dogs had the right to tear it in two, put it in a cage, torture it, kill many of it's puppies and so on? You're justifying what Hitler and Stalin did? Because I don't get your point.


Oh I know, and of THIS I'm not proud at all.


Because Third Reich was defeated.

BB, the fact that Hitler was good to Germans was no use to Russians or Poles :)


What can I do? I'm Polish :) I am not aware of any Jewish roots in my family.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


BB, Poles didn't follow the Soviet ideology nor wanted they to ally with Stalin (except for the AL and they were in minority) :) I'm sure you know what the Soviets did to AK? And what was the situation then?


Morality is irrelevant? What is wrong and what is right? It's not important to you? Are you sure?


:)
If you refused to do something wrong and you would have to pay the price for this, would the thought that you did the right thing console you?


Not only. It was about freedom, for example :)


Had been Poland more agreeable there would be no Poland and we would speak German (if we would be alive, that is)...
Had been Poland more agreeable during the partitions we would speak Russian now ;)


Then you're wrong :)

Bratwurst Boy, Russians went through hell during the war as well. The Nazis treated Slavs worse than the people in the West, that's a fact. But I don't think any Russian would say they shouldn't fight with Third Reich.

I think only I wrote about the Jews here. And I think I am aware of pretty much everything that Poles did to Jews, MareGaea. I'm from Kielce, after all.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


Bratwurst Boy, nazi ideology was evil in itself.
There is a difference, I think.
Although Hitler and Stalin were both monsters in my opinion.


I don't think you could call it a choice. Unless you call Katyń massacre and gulags an alliance.
And the Nazis were still worse.


Why?


Yes, I think it does make it more bearable. Because if we were on the wrong side - it would be unbearable.


I'm not implying. You wrote to me: "ask yourself what would had been better." And I did that and wrote about it.


Some did. Those who informed Western countries about what was going on.


Slavs were also sub-humans to the Nazis. So I'm not thinking only about the Jews.


I also think so.


Yes. But Poland didn't ally with Hitler. I think it was the right choice.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


I think it's better to be "stupid" than evil.


Yes.


This thread is called "Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers" :)


I can't write what I think today about Poland in the build up to the war?


It shows, PennBoy, what was Third Reich.
What about those plans? Why do they matter? I'm not sure what's your point.


So your great grandfather shouldn't had fought?

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


But I do.


I'm not. It's my decision.


No, I didn't. But we didn't have concentration camps.


But they are in my mind.

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


I think I do :) You see, not far from my city there is a town in which before the war most of the inhabitants were Jews. During the war there was a ghetto there. All the Jews were transported from there to Auschwitz and other concentration camps. So, there are no Jews in this town anymore. I pass this town every time I go to visit my grandma in the countryside. My grandpa and his family almost starved to death. You know that Slavs were sub-humans too? Would you like me to describe to you what my grandpa saw? What a German officer did to a little Gipsy girl?


To show what?


So?


Hundreds of years? Then it's good he was mortal and he killed himself :)

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


LOL

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


But I'm asking you.


Poles made their choice long time ago.


Hitler wasn't reasonable.


I wonder what would happen to non-Germans (including Jews) living in those lands?
Besides, I'm pretty sure Hitler would attack Poland anyway.


And Third Reich was what? A friend? LOL


Only Poland was between Third Reich and the Soviet Union.
And could you name those "more agreeable, smarter and even neutral countries"?


So? If Poland allied with Hitler the Soviets would take revenge not only on Germans but also on Poles.


I think PennBoy lives in the US ;)

History / Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers [117]


Bratwurst Boy, would you approve if Poland negotiated with Hitler or even created an alliance with that monster?


O_O

Study / Which Polish Universities are multilingual, and teach Psychology? [36]


Well, I didn't know about it either, but UW was the first place that came to my mind :)


Proszę bardzo :)

News / Poland and Kresy being reunited? [162]


I doubt anyone sane would seriously think about it, let alone plan it LOL

Study / Which Polish Universities are multilingual, and teach Psychology? [36]


The University of Warsaw:

irk.uw.edu.pl/katalog.php?op=info&id=DM-PS-ANG&change_lang=en

psychology.pl/[/url]


Not that difficult - The University of Warsaw is a very "real" university ;)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Warsaw

Life / WHY DO POLES USE ENGLISH WORDS IN CONVERSATION? [396]


I doubt it's from English (if it is, it's not a present-day borrowing as it is a quite old-fashioned word) - in Polish there is a word "hardy", for example: "hardy człowiek" (a haughty man).

sjp.pl/co/hardy