History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

Merged:Jewish History in Poland

Hello all. My family is from Belarus, which was part of the Polish commonwealth. I'm a Jew, with a family history of being of direct descent of the Khazar Royal Family (for those who do not know who Khazars are, we are white people from Southern Russia who converted to Judaism). Living in America I always heard that Polish were the biggest Antisemites, so not too long ago I decided to do some research on that subject, and what I found was completely opposite:


/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland


/wiki/Casimir_III_the_Great#Relationship_with_Polish_Jews

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

I know u must have a thing against wiki, but it is a true. But if that bugs u, go to the Israels Yad Vashem and check out which country has the most number of Righteous Among Men? Wait for it... It's Poland!!! What a shock! lol

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]

Most people have never heard of Khazars because they never heard of a lot of things. Lithuania, which was part of the Polish Commonwealth has 2 surviving Khazar communities who still speak the Khazar Turkic Language. If any of you looked at my pic, I'm a stereotipical Khazar. My looks are similar to Chuvash people, Udmurts, even Turks from Northern Turkey (who didn't mix with Arabs). All of my ancestors are Jews. My last name Shagal is a variation of Segal, which an acronym for SeGan Levi- Prince of Levites or Assistant to the High Priest. This is a title given to our family for protection we provided to the Jewsih community and the Kohan that settled in our area.

After Khazaria was incorporated into Russia around 980 AD, we stayed in southern Russia till about 1200's, where we took up farming. this was the main difference between Khazar Jews and Ashkenazi in Belarus and Eastern Poland. Ashkenazi (Ashkenaz is Yidish word for German Land) were mostly city people and helds crafts such as shoe maker, taylors, silversmiths, which is a known fact that the community was very heavily weighted towards those skills, where as Khazar Jews who were mixed with Jews from Byzantine Empire (Romaniots) and Persian Jews tended to be more farm and ranching oriented. You can see our Clans lifestyle in my Great Uncles paintings (Mark Chagall) which depicts a very country lifestyle with animals places in most of the paintings to symbolize how much our lifestyle revolved around animals and farming.

for those who doubt my true identity I would like to post several links to my families groups and a Xazar group which I moderate. Just because you are not familiar with something doesn't make it false;)

facebook.com/groups/244779992229981/
facebook.com/groups/223616031059309/
facebook.com/groups/297505980262446/


Nothing you said disproves any claim of Khazar descent. Studies conducted by American Jewish geneology research groups point to 5% of Jewish population having Khazar DNA, it's the Q1b haplogroup and possible R1 haplogroup. 5% is about 1,000,000 people!

groups.yahoo/group/Ashkenazi-Q/


What other societies of the period are you referring to? I suspect that you have none in mind and you are just claiming this due to your inability to admit that you were wrong (the frequent reader of this forum has seen you demonstrate this inability numerous times and it is hilarious!). The Khazars are known via the Kievan Primary Chronicle as well as through Byzantine and Arab sources.

jon357: These studies (among others) refute the discredited Khazar theory which you're trying to promote for reasons unknown.
I am not promoting the Khazar theory. I am saying that you are lying when you claim that it is a "racist" theory and that you are lying when you claim that 'science' has discredited it. The first link you provided says the following:

The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/

The reader should note that this study shows that there are indeed Jews with Turkic ancestry and thus leaves open the possibility that some Jews living today are indeed descendants of the Turkic Khazars as is the belief in the OP's family. So much for your claim that the first study you linked to refutes the Khazar theory, Jon357, although it does "refute the discredited Khazar theory" in the sense that it refutes its discreditation, but I suspect that you contradicted what you intended to say out of carelessness. (you surely can't have posted over 1,100 times in this forum in less than 4 months while choosing all of your words carefully.)

The second link you posted says the following:
Some genetic studies suggest that Jewish populations show substantial non-Jewish admixture and the occurrence of mass conversion of non-Jews to Judaism

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC18733/?tool=pmcentrez

Again this refutes your claim that science has utterly refuted theories that claim that many of today's Jews are descendants of converts, such as the Khazars, jon357.

Your third link is a NY Times article about a study that does claim to refute the role of mass conversion in making the modern Jewish genome. So I guess we'd have to say that "the third time was the charm" for you, Jon357, you tried, and you tried, and you finally posted a link that, sort of, supports what you say about the refutation of the Khazar theory. Congratulations!

I do wish to take issue with the fact that you seem to be calling the OP, and his family, racists for believing that they have Khazar ancestry and that is just plain rude. Why would it be racist to believe that many of the Khazars that converted to Judaism stuck with their adopted faith and came West out of the Pontic Steppe? History shows that even before the 12th Century a portion of the Jewish Khazars, called Kabars, went West with the Magyars and settled in Pannonia. I suspect the reason that you call the Khazar theory "racist" is contained in the OP's post:

genecps: The only reason a lot of Jews claim that Khazars are a myth is because it would deligitimize the Jews claim to Israel, but at 5% of the Jewish population it is hardly a threat.

Jon357, you are lying, and being rude, upon this thread out of loyalty to the Zionist project and it doesn't matter to you if Khazar ancestry is only attributable to one out of twenty modern Jews. You are an extremely zealous Zionist that can't allow any claim that some of Europe's Jews are descendants of Japheth rather than Shem.[/quote]

Des Essientes, I agree completely with everything you say! 2 sides of this equation have both put out more bullshit on this subject then anything. On one side the Arabs claim that most European Jews are Khazars, which is bullshit because you can easily tell the visible Semitic features as well as the proven genetic studies that point otherwise. And on the Jewish side many reject any possible link to Khazars 100% out of the notion that it would lessen their claim to Israel. Both sides have a completely biased agenda that gets rejected more and more especially with the increasing rate of genetic testing which supports the claim that 1 in 20 Jews is genetically of similar blood line to Bulgars, Hungarians, and Chuvash, all while living among Eastern Polish, Belarus, and West Ukrainian lands. If the Khazar theory was completely incorrect and the reason most of us white, red headed Jews from those lands are that way is because of mixing with the local Caucasian people... how come we do not share DNA with them, but instead with groups that are known to have been related to Khazars?!

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

This is just too funny!!! Here is my take on this subject.

1. If you think most Jews are bad, chances are you come from a family of loosers, you have bad work ethic, and you probably didn't pursue education to it's highest level. You will always be Jelous of the "Evil Jews", but in reality u are just a lame ass looser and so is your family;)

2. If you think most Poles are Anti-Semites, that you are just whiny b!#(h, and just need to complain and nag, and your only reason for being here is because you need to complain and whine, and you are the kind of person that prefers to spend his time dwelling on the negative.

To the Poles who write all the negative stuff about how the Jews are destroying and ripping everyone off... you think you are a proud patriot, but really you just give a black eye to your people. If you were a true patriot you would be volunteering as a firefighter, paramedic, etc., instead of all the hate mongering.

To the Jews here. If Poland was a such a bad place for Jews, how come all of the bad stories only arose after Russian Tsar took control of the Polish/Belarus in the late 18th century? Why did so many Jews move to Poland are they really that dumb to go where it sucks??

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Jon, there are good and bad among all peoples. Do you know how many bad things I heard about Goim growing up, that doesn't make all of us racists towards them. I tell you what, if you feel someone is a blatant racist, here's what I found works: take a knife and stab one or a metal stick and beat one down. Idiots only respect violence. You are not helping the Jewish cause by concentrating your time on harping on the negative. Antisemites can spent more time then you or I being negative because their life sucks and negativity is all they have to offer. It's only a small % of people who are negative, they just make more noise then normal people, because your average person has better things to do.

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

pawian

Hey Pawian, I don't speak Polish, but that first word seems like Taskuu (in Russian: Long for u), am I correct?

I looked it up, and found tesknie.com.
Very cool! Must admit made my eyes watery.
I'm a moderator of a 4,000+ Russian American Jewish group on facebook:
facebook.com/groups/RJews/
And I have posted the pictures there as well as the website there.
I think it's a good start at rebuilding relations between the 2 communities.

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

It means: We miss you Jews!

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]


No one said that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of Khazars. What I said is that 1 in 20 Ashkenazi Jews has Khazars DNA, that DNA testing has proven this!

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]

Arabs try to say that all Jews of European descent are Khazars, and yes genetics disproves this as Jews from Europe are closely related to Jews from Arab countries.

And the other side of this equation is those Jews that say that there is zero Khazar blood among Jews from Eastern Europe.

What seems more logical: That the 4,000 members of the upper class who chose Judaism of their own free will and liked their religion just converted or mixed in with other people, or is it more likely that they chose to mix with their coreligionists?

Just because Jews who do not have any Khazar blood "don't think" anyone else does... doesn't make it true! And their view is extremely biased (for obvious reasons).

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]


Oh boy... here we go again... and what should my primary identity be O Great Maharishi??

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]


The reality of it is simple:
1. It would give fuel to Arabs who claim that ALL Jews are Khazars.
2. Jealousy, there is a pecking order among Jews based on race too (being white is considered better among Jews too).
3. It makes them feel that people like me are not interested in upholding the status qoe that we are all the same.


Why not white?

Jewish is my religion, and if I converted to, lets say Christianity... no one would call me a Jew anymore, but I would still be white, which means white is more of a permanent trait for me.

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]

p3undone, I noticed that it plays out like this: When I speak to Jews of Russian descent who look white, and tell them there there is probably a chance that they are descended from Khazars, most tend to say "Yah, that could be". The only people that fight with me on this are darker Semitic looking Jews who tend to have a chip on their shoulders against white people. There is a small, but growing movement of us, who consider ourselves white to make an expat community in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast (Russia). Most of us feel that it's a split that is necessary to happen, because we are tired of douche-bags telling us who we are and who we not. You wanna be a Semite, move to Israel and be a Semite. We are perfectly comfortable being white Europeans who practice Judaism. What you will see in the future is that most of us will start calling anyone who is a white Jew a Khazar. People seem not to understand one basic human principle: people naturally gravitate towards others who look like them (Irish girls flock to me). It's a normal thing, and there is nothing wrong with it. A few of us are actually working on starting a motorcycle club that we will call after the Khazars, and that will increase our visibility and attract even more people. This is necessary to prevent the "YOUR NOT WHITE, YOU ARE A JEW" crowd from driving the white Jews away from our faith through marriage and living in communities of other people (it's like they do not understand that we like being who we are- white). I hope this makes sense to you, because most non white Jews are too dumb to understand this concept and stop disrespecting us (sad reality).

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]

Is there a big difference between Polish, Belarus, and Lithuanian Heraldry as far as style, and were most of them issued during the commonwealth?

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


That's what we do, we sit around and try to figure out a way to do that stuff. lol
We have an order to this:

1. find a way to steal all the money.
2. then get into Politics and inact measures to destry the country of our residence (this benefits us, trust me!)
3. then we kidnap Christian babies and make matzoball soup from them.

And if that doesn't work, we open up liquor stores and make sure that the lazy can stay drunk, not get a college education, and not be able to get good jobs.

Legend, I bet my plan worked in your case!

SUCCESS!!! lol

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

personal remark removed. 3 Million Poles also died in WWII most at the hands of the Germans. Most who did nothing were afraid! Most of you American Jews are So BRAVE, I bet u served in a combat branch of the military and after 9/11 volunteered to go to war! It's easy to speak in hindsight about bravery!

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

You are misinformed. Jews didn't care for bolshevik ideals. Jews had their own political group called the Jewish Bund. The Russian Tzar send in Cossacks to kill Jews, to a tune of 30,000 (men, women, children), that's the only reason Jews sided with the bolsheviks against the Tzar, and those Poles who sided with the Tzar were obviously considered enemies.

And if u think us siding with the Soviets in WWII was wrong, you are on crack homeboy! Both my grandfathers were Red Army Soldiers and I'm glad they both got to kill a lot of Nazis. One of my grandfathers was in both the Battle of Stalingrad and one of the first soldiers into Berlin. The other lost part of his leg over Hungry being a point-man.

War is ugly, bad things happen. Siding against the Poles was not an agenda for Jews. But if you have any proof, please post links here, theories are dime a dozen!

As far as I'm concerned bad blood between Jews and Poles can be traced to the Romanov Royal family of Russian when they took control of Poland (not the Russian people, but these idiots specifically).

BTW. Pawian dobre, I'm only messing with with the $20 remark (u probably got that).

U know what would be interesting, to create a township, mini state in Eastern Poland for Jews of Polish/Belarus/Lithuanian descent who would like to establish a farming community. something where we can have our own Sheriffs/Fire/EMS department. I'm sure I could easily convince Khazars / Karaite Jews (for those who do not know, it's a branch of Judaism that Follows only Torah and not Talmud). We are what you would classify as a secular branch, which means: those of us who hold strong convictions do not look like the Amish. And we are not against mixing either (a lot are of mixed bloods anyway among us now days). We also believe in serving the nation in the combat branches of the military. And we believe that loyalty to ones country comes above loyalty to coreligionists who live in a different country.

Kinda like Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia:

facebook.com/groups/264824800248298/

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]

We found 2 family crests that we believe came from Poland or Belarus. I have seen very similar looking Polish crests to the first one, and one that looked a lot like ours with the same type of shield, helmet and branches of "leaves" (for a lack of better word), just different content inside the shield and different colors. If anyone has anything that they could identify or comment that would help me track down some more history about the crests I would appreciate.

• 
  My family crest 1
  
• 
  My family crest 2
  

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]

Good link. Still leaves me to ponder where those two originated. There are some common things like leaves and seen a similar helmet. But I would immagine all of Polish Heraldry is registered, recorded, and accounted for. Oh well, back to the drawing board as they say.

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]

The shield with the green background makes total sense to me, it's a merging of 2 families: One family was land owners and the other were merchants. The other I have no idea. but what eludes me, are the origins of these crests.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Yes, there were definitely some idealists who were from poor but educated families who thought life would be better for the peasantry in a Marxist environment. If Stalin wouldn't gotten involved it would have become a socialist state.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Now in Israel they got Kibuts system, and technically it is mini functioning communism in it's truest form. Other then that communism isn't compatible with anyone.

I don't drink and am a workaholic, why should I get what a lazy drunk who doesnt want to put as much effort into making his families life better gets, is the question!

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Assyrians conquered the Kingdom of Jerusalem and took a few tribes as slaves, and send a bunch of people to work in other places.

Stalin promoting Jews is kind of news to me, Stalin was always distrustful of Jews. He send most Jews to the Far east and most of Jews who were the original Bolsheviks ended up getting assassinated or sent to gulags by him. By the end of his life Staling was paranoid and told everyone that Jewish doctors were trying to kill him. And now days, truth started coming out and many historians and modern forensic medics think that he actually did die from a drug routine that was designed to poison him (which I totally hope so). If there were Jews who hunted down Poles for one reason or another, please refrain from saying "Jews did it", it's equivalent to saying all of us were in on it. there are good Jews and there are bad Jews. No group is immune from bad people, but the NKVD Jews were a tiny minority from the Jewish populace.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]


My family were wealthy ranchers, and had to flee their home town of Krasno Polje in Belarus to avoid being killed by the Bolsheviks, so I highly doubt we were pro communism.

The reason you can find us at the top of both sides of the conflict is simple:

1. Education in our culture tops the list!
2. We are not "drinking" people (alcohol), once a week is ok to have drinks with your friends, but not Mon-Fri after work.
3. After work we are usually: reading, taking classes, working more, trying to start a small biz, etc. We are busy boddies.
4. We are very competitive. You you think you can do something well, I will try to do it better!
5. Cheating, spousal abuse, divorces, are at much lower rates, which gives us a better atmosphere to persue activities that lead to success.
6. A religious phylosopy that has cultivated and improved on the above. (Every household in North Korea has a Talmud, it is part of state mandated education now, that's how much they respect our philosophy of success).

I will not apologize for any of the above! I will always be competitive! I will teach my kids to work harder, study more, and be more competitive then the next guy!

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]


House of Names are retarded. They said my name is of German origin (My family never resided in Germany, we migrated to Belarus from Southern Russia). What they should have done is checked Wikipedia (lol). They would have gotten a much better explanation. My name is an acronym of a Hebrew Honorary title: SeGan Levi (SeGaL), which means Prince of Levites or Assistant High Priest.

History / Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine [106]

Here's a video about the Khazar (Karaim) community of Lithuania who were brought by the Grand Duke of Lithuania in the 1400's to act as his guards.

The community is still there, even thought it is very small now.

History / What do Poles owe to Jews? [586]

Mazel Tov!!!

More power to them!

I respect anyone who works hard and respects education!

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]


Seigal originated in Germany. It's a completely different name, that by chance ended up sounding and looking the same. Ours is really a honorary title. We know this by certain other traits. My ancestral family profession was Kosher butchers. Kosher butchers were generally the richest people in the Jewish communities (especially in Belarus). This is because all meat had to be cut by us, ever Rabbi's couldn't do it. Even if you owned cows you had to come to us to get them slaughtered. The title of butcher was given to Levites only, and this was the most lucrative title to be given.

There is also a name called Seagal, which is of English origin, and also doesn't have any relation to us. Almost all the variations of our name a 100 years ago had only one vowel:

Segal, Sagal, Shagal, Segalchik, Segalevich, Segaliovich, Segalov, Segalovich, Segalovskij, "Segel, Segelman, Segelson, Segelevich, Segil, Seglin, Segolov-Shchegolev, Sejgal, Sejgalus, Sejgel, Sigal, Sigalchik, Sigalskij, Sgalov, Sigalovich, Sigalovskij, Sigalus, Sigolovich, Sycal, Sycalovskiy, Tsigal, Tsigal, Tsycal, Tsoglin, Salal, Dagalchik, Sagalin, Sagalov, Sagalovich, Sagalovskij, Sagelevich, Saglovskij, Sagol, Sagolovich, Sogalov, Sogalov-Shchegolev, Sogalovskij, Sogolov, Sogolovich, Sogolovskij, Shegal, Shegal, Shegalov, Shegelman, Shejgal, Shigalov, Shugal, Shugol, Shugul, Shagaliovich, Shagalov, Shagelman, Zegal, Zegelman, Zigal, Zigelman, Zygal, Zagel.

The other 2 versions started being used by some members of our clan after they moved outside of Eastern Europe. But origins of those two names are not related to our own. There is also Shagal in India, and even thought it is completely identical to my name (I'm from the Shagal/Chagall, as in Marc Chagall family) it is also completely unrelated. Just a coincidence.