porzeczka
8 Mar 2009
Life / Do you think that Polish people are rude? [951]
Yeah, with arrogance like that there is no way you aren't British ;-)
Yeah, with arrogance like that there is no way you aren't British ;-)
porzeczka
3 Dec 2009
Travel / Poland wildlife and similar wild life where you live. [243]
It's green woodpecker.
He stays in Poland whole year. Beautiful bird :)
It's green woodpecker.
He stays in Poland whole year. Beautiful bird :)
porzeczka
1 Mar 2010
Genealogy / Polish-Ukranian roots and genes [72]
'The Legendary Rus cities':
Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: a history, Toronto University Press- the book you recommended ;).
Kievan Rus wassparsely populated in comparison to western countries.
Paul Robert Magosci, A history of Ukraine, Toronto University Press
Another quote from Subtelny:
Ruthenians didn't differ much from other 'barbarians':
Vladimir I of Kiev
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I_of_Kiev
The Crusades, Helen J. Nicholson, Greenwood
The Soviet scholar Mikhail Tikhomirov calculated that Kievan Rus' on the eve of the Mongol invasion had around 300 urban centers.[18]
'The Legendary Rus cities':
The chronicles indicate that there were about 240 towns and cities in the land. However it is probable that as many as 150 of these were nothing more than fortified settlements inhabited by semi-agrarian population.
Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: a history, Toronto University Press- the book you recommended ;).
The total population will then be c. 6 million people (10% of European population!!!) It doesn't seem sparesely populated.
Kievan Rus wassparsely populated in comparison to western countries.
It is estimated that by the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries the total population of Kievan Rus' was approximately seven to eight million. At about the same time in Western Europe, territorially much smaller Germany (the Holy Roman Empire) also had approximately eight million people, and France about 15 million people.
Paul Robert Magosci, A history of Ukraine, Toronto University Press
Another quote from Subtelny:
Foreigners who travelled through Ukraine often remarked on its low density of population. While Polish lands on the average contained abouttwenty-two inhabitants per square kilometre, Ukrainian territories averaged aboutseven persons per square kilometre.
before Polish barbarians invaded the country.
Ruthenians didn't differ much from other 'barbarians':
Vladimir continued to expand his territories beyond his father's extensive domain. In 981, heconquered the Cherven cities, the modern Galicia; in 983, he subdued the Yatvingians, whose territories lay between Lithuania and Poland; in 985, he led a fleet along the central rivers of Kievan Rus' to conquer the Bulgars of the Kama, planting numerous fortresses and colonies on his way.
Vladimir I of Kiev
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I_of_Kiev
Daniel of Ruthenia wanted to take over the pagan lands to the North and West of his territories. In 1253 he accepted a crown and the title of king from the papal legate in return for his help in war against the pagans.
The Crusades, Helen J. Nicholson, Greenwood
porzeczka
2 Mar 2010
Genealogy / Polish-Ukranian roots and genes [72]
I'm glad that you've changed your mind. The number of population is irrelevant.
I don't think so called 'colonization' of Ukraine was state sponsored. It was free civilian migration to the sparsely populated areas.
And your magnates needed many hands to work the land. From where do you think they imported workforce? ;) Resettling of Ruthenian peasants would not have been enough.
Kievan Rus conquered a lot of land until 11th/12th century, including territories not inhabited by eastern Slavic tribes:
There are some interesting fragments in it. You wouldn't like it ;)
Subtelny doesn't give this information. It must be the peak of Kievan Rus' achievements.
Regarding sparsely populated territories, I have to agree
I'm glad that you've changed your mind. The number of population is irrelevant.
Foreigners who travelled through Ukraine often remarked on its low density of population. While Polish lands on the average contained about twenty-two inhabitants per square kilometre, Ukrainian territories averaged about seven persons per square kilometre.
I don't think so called 'colonization' of Ukraine was state sponsored. It was free civilian migration to the sparsely populated areas.
And your magnates needed many hands to work the land. From where do you think they imported workforce? ;) Resettling of Ruthenian peasants would not have been enough.
Kievan Rus conquered a lot of land until 11th/12th century, including territories not inhabited by eastern Slavic tribes:
I am glad you checked the book out :)
There are some interesting fragments in it. You wouldn't like it ;)
And the year the chronicles date to?
Subtelny doesn't give this information. It must be the peak of Kievan Rus' achievements.
porzeczka
29 Mar 2010
History / Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) [144]
The point 14 of the Polish-Lithuanian 'Treaty on friendly relations and good neighbourly cooperation' signed in Vilnius on 26 September 1994, states clearly that members of ethnic minorities have right to use their given names and surnames in the form appropriate to the language of the ethnic minority.
Au minium, there shouldn't be any suffixes added.
Bilingual sings can/should be introduced in municipalities where more than 20 percent residents belong to a national minority (as for European Union). Similar sings are present in German,
Lemko (in Cyrillic),
Lithuanian
... inhabited areas in Poland. When it comes to Lithuania, there are forbidden even in Šalèininkai and Vilnius districts where Poles constitute respectively 79 and 61 percent of inhabitants.
So you want innocent people to have their rights limited and violated because of Polish-Ukrainian historical animosities and 'centuries old' grudges? Are you really such a narrow-minded person?
If I remember correctly, there was time when Orthodoxes oppressed Polish and Lithuanian Catholics/Uniates, and closed /destroyed/converted hundreds of Catholic and Uniate churches into Orthodox ones. Obviously Interbelum's Poles and Lithuanians (Orthodox churches were confiscated and destroyed also in Lithuania) strived to reverse that, and, without doubt, took revenge as well. If they reasoned like you, they would probably have slaughtered all Orthodoxes.
OUN's pamphlets were forbiden, but Szewczenko's works and Doroszenko's 'Narys istoriji Ukrajiny' published by Ukrainian Institute in Warsaw in the 30' or Orthodox, Church Slavonic bibles printed in Lviv in XVI, weren't.
According to the census, only 27,000 Polish citizens declared themselves as ethnic Ukrainians.
You have three Ukrainian programs in Polish public television (more than '26 minutes'/month). 'Ukraińskie wieści' is broadcasted every second Tuesday at around 6 p.m, 'Przegląd Ukraiński' - each weak, and 'Telenoviny' seems to be still aired.
That's hilarious :)
Jak odbierać ukraińskie media w Polsce
tryzub.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=447&Itemid=159
If you don't like Polish Public Television you can always take your own advice: buy a ticket and leave :) Seriously, there are far more valid accusations (in regards to treatment of ethnic minorities) against country of your origin.
Why don't you quote the rest of the text:
Do you know any sources confirming that Poles were granted better positions and access to education than Lithuanians? If not, stop manipulating please.
Stop writing about history :)
the fact that they deny Poles the right to spell their names in Polish is not that funny.
The point 14 of the Polish-Lithuanian 'Treaty on friendly relations and good neighbourly cooperation' signed in Vilnius on 26 September 1994, states clearly that members of ethnic minorities have right to use their given names and surnames in the form appropriate to the language of the ethnic minority.
Au minium, there shouldn't be any suffixes added.
Bilingual sings can/should be introduced in municipalities where more than 20 percent residents belong to a national minority (as for European Union). Similar sings are present in German,
Lemko (in Cyrillic),
Lithuanian
... inhabited areas in Poland. When it comes to Lithuania, there are forbidden even in Šalèininkai and Vilnius districts where Poles constitute respectively 79 and 61 percent of inhabitants.
I hope they would finally appreciate what it feels like. But Lithuanians are angels in their current minority policies as compared to Poles in XVI-XVII centuries and 1920-1939. Nobody burns churches, nobody converts them into institutions of another confession, nobody burns libraries sending strzelcy groups, nobody forbids the publications.
So you want innocent people to have their rights limited and violated because of Polish-Ukrainian historical animosities and 'centuries old' grudges? Are you really such a narrow-minded person?
If I remember correctly, there was time when Orthodoxes oppressed Polish and Lithuanian Catholics/Uniates, and closed /destroyed/converted hundreds of Catholic and Uniate churches into Orthodox ones. Obviously Interbelum's Poles and Lithuanians (Orthodox churches were confiscated and destroyed also in Lithuania) strived to reverse that, and, without doubt, took revenge as well. If they reasoned like you, they would probably have slaughtered all Orthodoxes.
OUN's pamphlets were forbiden, but Szewczenko's works and Doroszenko's 'Narys istoriji Ukrajiny' published by Ukrainian Institute in Warsaw in the 30' or Orthodox, Church Slavonic bibles printed in Lviv in XVI, weren't.
c. 300,000 minority of Ukrainians (I think the numbers are higher, because in 1947 in Operation "Vistula" they forcefully deported 200,000 Ukrainians into Western Poland and it was 63 years ago, 3 generations past)
According to the census, only 27,000 Polish citizens declared themselves as ethnic Ukrainians.
don't have an opportunity to watch Ukrainian news for 26 minutes a month... Just simply having a program.
You have three Ukrainian programs in Polish public television (more than '26 minutes'/month). 'Ukraińskie wieści' is broadcasted every second Tuesday at around 6 p.m, 'Przegląd Ukraiński' - each weak, and 'Telenoviny' seems to be still aired.
Personnaly at home where I used to live, we had 2 Polish programs all day long!!!!!!!!!!, not 26 minutes a month.
That's hilarious :)
Jak odbierać ukraińskie media w Polsce
tryzub.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=447&Itemid=159
If you don't like Polish Public Television you can always take your own advice: buy a ticket and leave :) Seriously, there are far more valid accusations (in regards to treatment of ethnic minorities) against country of your origin.
It seems like somebody had good life in Lithuania under communism regime. The same was with Russians in Ukraine. They got always better possitions and access to education. They weren't eager to support Ukrainian independance, because then the competition would start on the same line. This way communism always kept tension of everyone against everyone, but not against itself.
Why don't you quote the rest of the text:
In 1950s the remaining Polish minority was a target of several attempted campaigns of Lithuanization by Communist Party of Lithuania, which tried to ban any teaching in Polish language; those attempts where however vetoed by Moscow which saw them as too nationalistic. [28] Polish minority, still remembering the 1950s attempts to ban Polish language, [28] was much more supportive of the Soviet Union and afraid that the new Lithuanian government might want to reintroduce the Lithuanization policies. [28]
Do you know any sources confirming that Poles were granted better positions and access to education than Lithuanians? If not, stop manipulating please.
Stop writing about history :)
porzeczka
2 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
That's true. One of the first destroyed Orthodox churches was the Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw
Some facts that were omitted:
- 66-70 percent of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics. The source of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XX c. was the Uniate Church (those 'nationally conscious' Ukrainians). Orthodox services were often conducted in Russian in Volhynia - that's why Piłsudski wanted to 'Ukrainise' Orthodox church there.
- There was negative attitude among Polish society towards Orthodoxes. Most probably because they were used by Russian government as instrument of Russification and took over Catholic Churches.
- When the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.
- In 1875, 375Uniate Churches were converted into Orthodox churches. At least 240Roman Catholic churches were converted into Orthodox too.
Polish 're-vindication campaign' (that is how they called it) can be seen as next stage of the conflict between Orthodoxes and Catholics (or perhaps even more directly Russian faith vs Polish faith, Russian sphere of influence vs. Polish sphere of influence).
Check CBOS research on how many people know anything about massacres in Volhynia.
Perhabs 'revindication' is not often discussed in public because of the same reason Volhynia 1943 isn't.
I also found out that the action has started much earlier then 1938
That's true. One of the first destroyed Orthodox churches was the Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw:
Tsar Alexander III gave his approval to fund the cathedral on the date of anniversary of partitions of Poland in 1893 which was celebrated as "joining of the West Russian state"[2].
It was demolished in mid-1920s by the Polish authorities less than 15 years after its construction.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw
Some facts that were omitted:
- 66-70 percent of Polish Ukrainians were Greek Catholics. The source of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XX c. was the Uniate Church (those 'nationally conscious' Ukrainians). Orthodox services were often conducted in Russian in Volhynia - that's why Piłsudski wanted to 'Ukrainise' Orthodox church there.
- There was negative attitude among Polish society towards Orthodoxes. Most probably because they were used by Russian government as instrument of Russification and took over Catholic Churches.
- When the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.
- In 1875, 375Uniate Churches were converted into Orthodox churches. At least 240Roman Catholic churches were converted into Orthodox too.
In 1912, the Orthodox Bishop Nikolai of Warsaw declared in the State council that the historic task of the Russian state used to be and still was the Russification of everything non-Russian and the conversion to Orthodoxy of everyone who was not a member
Polish 're-vindication campaign' (that is how they called it) can be seen as next stage of the conflict between Orthodoxes and Catholics (or perhaps even more directly Russian faith vs Polish faith, Russian sphere of influence vs. Polish sphere of influence).
Check CBOS research on how many people know anything about massacres in Volhynia.
Perhabs 'revindication' is not often discussed in public because of the same reason Volhynia 1943 isn't.
porzeczka
2 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region
Apparently what Aphrodisiac posted is some horribly bad translation. Here is a post concerning it:
e.g. that's the original:
- Znieść opłaty administracyjne przy zmianie obrządku prawosławnego na rzym.-kat
And that's translation:
- Cancel the administrative payment to the Orthodox rite priests.
original:
- Dopuścić ich do szkół podoficerskich
translation:
- to prevent them from joining Officer schools.
The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region
Apparently what Aphrodisiac posted is some horribly bad translation. Here is a post concerning it:
e.g. that's the original:
- Znieść opłaty administracyjne przy zmianie obrządku prawosławnego na rzym.-kat
And that's translation:
- Cancel the administrative payment to the Orthodox rite priests.
original:
- Dopuścić ich do szkół podoficerskich
translation:
- to prevent them from joining Officer schools.
porzeczka
3 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
That's very bad, biased/skewed translation (of the whole document), and you know it if you read the thread on Axis history forum (the one you took it from). So why are you posting it (again)?????????
Some fragments mean exactly the opposite of the original.
Roman Catholic Church in Warsaw (Kościół Pijarów) converted into Orthodox Church.
Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolishedby the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.
Depends how you look at it.
Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.
note: the Orthodox believers in PLC must have been mostly Belarusians
Catholicism was seen by tsarist authorities as Polish faith. That is why they tried so hard to 'depolonize' Ukrainians, among others. They did it by destruction/changing Catholic churches into Orthodox ones, building Orthodox churches everywhere and by forcing mass-conversions to Orthodoxy. During 'revindication', Polish authorities tried to 'derusify' some regions - at least that is what they believed they were doing - there is talk about 'derusification' in official papers.
Source: The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia, Abraham Ascher, 2001
Source: Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007.
In Russian? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism looked like?
They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?
Search google for Greek Catholics in Ukraine
huri.harvard.edu/lib/bibliography/cont10.html
The main directive of Polonization Kholm Region
That's very bad, biased/skewed translation (of the whole document), and you know it if you read the thread on Axis history forum (the one you took it from). So why are you posting it (again)?????????
Some fragments mean exactly the opposite of the original.
Roman Catholic Church in Warsaw (Kościół Pijarów) converted into Orthodox Church.
Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolishedby the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.
Russian faith or Russian influence, Ukrainian Orhtodox churches in Chelm region were not centers of Russian Faith but Ukrainian faith.
Depends how you look at it.
At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state and barely 400000 Orthodox believers.
Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.
note: the Orthodox believers in PLC must have been mostly Belarusians
Catholicism was seen by tsarist authorities as Polish faith. That is why they tried so hard to 'depolonize' Ukrainians, among others. They did it by destruction/changing Catholic churches into Orthodox ones, building Orthodox churches everywhere and by forcing mass-conversions to Orthodoxy. During 'revindication', Polish authorities tried to 'derusify' some regions - at least that is what they believed they were doing - there is talk about 'derusification' in official papers.
The region under dispute which in 1912 came to be known as Kholm province, consisted of eleven districts inthe eastern provinces of Siedlce and Lublin, both of which were predominantly Polish and Catholicand had been part of the Congress of Poland established in 1815. Adjacent to the provinces of Grodno and Zhitomir, their population included 310,000 Catholics, 305,000 Orthodox, 114,000 Jews, and 28,000 people professing various other faiths. But these figures tells only part of the story, since about two-thirds of the Orthodox were former Uniates, who a generation earlier (had been more or less coerced into converting to Orthodoxy. The converts were not firm adherents of Orthodoxy...
Source: The Search for Stability in Late Imperial Russia, Abraham Ascher, 2001
Like the Promethean project and the Volhynian experiment, the ukrainization of the Orthodox Church was justified within a certain conception of Polish interests. When negotiations between the Polish state and the Orthodox Church begun in 1930, the Polish prime minister could foresee that a ukrainized Orthodox Church would serve Polish interests in the Soviet Union.
Józefski and his collaborators worked to ukranize the Orthodox Church, to incline Orthodox priests to use the local Ukrainian language rather than Russian in sermons, record keeping, and informal communication with believers.
Source: Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007.
In Russian? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism looked like?
I think you meant to say that they were Greco-Catholic from the church and not Greek which refers more to nationality.
They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?
Search google for Greek Catholics in Ukraine
huri.harvard.edu/lib/bibliography/cont10.html
porzeczka
3 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter.
Source: A Fascist hero in democratic Kiev, T. Snyder (a historian from Yale), published in The New York Review of Books, February 24, 2010.
The failure of Ukrainian state (lost war againts Poles) + Polish policies + Ukrainian fascism + Demoralization of population and destruction of Ukrainian and Polish elites during WW2 + Territorial disputes = Volhynian slaughter.
Young terrorists such as Stepan Bandera were formed not by the prewar empires, but by fascist ideology and the experience of national discrimination in Poland.
In the late 1920s and early 1930s, as a new Polish government sought reconciliation with its five million Ukrainian citizens, Ukrainian nationalists acted decisively to prevent any compromise settlement. Bandera was one of the main organizers of terror campaigns intended to prevent Ukrainians from accepting the Polish government by provoking Polish retaliation. The main targets of their assassination attempts were Ukrainians and Poles who wished to work together.
Source: A Fascist hero in democratic Kiev, T. Snyder (a historian from Yale), published in The New York Review of Books, February 24, 2010.
porzeczka
4 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
Probably inspired by this fact:
Not in Ukraine, but in Poland (during Interbellum). You failed to understand me.
I wasn't talking about Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth period.
What about forceful conversion to Russian Orthodoxy? That must have had an effect on the number of Uniats.
Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005
Source:A history of Ukraine, Paul Robert Magocsi, 1996
However, Ukrainian Uniate church was able to survive in Austrian Galicia.
but these were ignored[11] with Poles claiming that "all Ukrainians were Bolsheviks or something close to it".[12]
Probably inspired by this fact:
Ukrainian peasants made up the vast majority of the so-called Red Army that was led by the Bolshevik commander Antonov Ovseenko and launched against Kiev in late 1918 by the Bolshevik government.
Uniates have never made majority in Ukraine. Why do you make stuff up?
Not in Ukraine, but in Poland (during Interbellum). You failed to understand me.
Read more of Ukrainian history and you will realize that the main national spirit of Ukraine was upheld by Orthodox believers, not Catholics. Ukrainians who fought Poles and Russians in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were overwhelmingly Orthodox.
I wasn't talking about Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth period.
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which in seventeenth century had helped sustain Ukraine's identity during its confrontation with the Poles, had become by the eighteen century a vehicle of Russification.
At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state
As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years?
As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years?
What about forceful conversion to Russian Orthodoxy? That must have had an effect on the number of Uniats.
In 1794, immediately following the second partition that gave Russia its largest share of Commonwealth territory, the empress began an aggressive crusade to convert the Uniates of the newly annexed territories to Russian Orthodoxy. Upon her death in late 1796, fully half of the Uniate population in the Russian Empire - 1.5 million (primarily in the Right Bank Ukraine) - had officially converted to Orthodoxy, largely through methods of force.
Source: Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005
In the 1770s , over 1,200 Uniate Churches were given to the Orthodox in Kiev region, and after 1793-1795, when the Russian Empire acquired the right bank of Volhynia, and Podolia during the second and third partitions of Poland, 2,300 Uniate churches were forced to become Orthodox.
Source:A history of Ukraine, Paul Robert Magocsi, 1996
However, Ukrainian Uniate church was able to survive in Austrian Galicia.
porzeczka
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
aphrodisiac
The topic is very complex. Apparently, to understand it, one has to know many elements of Poland-Ukraine relations through history. I hope Nathan's comments to which I'm responding are on topic.
Sadly, around that time, both Poles and Ukrainians committed crimes against Jews.
Source: The world reacts to the Holocaust, David S. Wyman, Charles H. Rosenzveig, published by John Hopkins University, 1996.
Source: Source: Violence and Terror in the French and Russian Revolutions, Arno J. Mayer, 2002
Various forces attacked Jews in Ukraine.
Source: A History of the Jewish people, H. Ben-Sasson, Harvard University 1976
It seems incorrect to assume that Orthodox Church was the main source of Ukrainian Nationalism in prewar Poland. In XXc (1920s-1930s), 'Ukrainian' Orthodox churches still conducted sermons in Russian, e.g. in Volhynia, contrary to Uniate ones. Furthermore, most of Ukrainians in Poland were Uniates (even in censuses, Uniates equal Ukrainians, the center of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XXc was Austrian Galicia), the action did not affect them. The goal of 're-vindication' couldn't have been simply destruction of Ukrainian nationalism.
You said that it was done 'to fight Ukrainian nationalism'. Right? There is more to it.
Ukrainian Orhodox Church as a vehicle of rusification + prof. Magocsi's words: Orthodox Church in Poland was historically associated with the tsarist government and its policy of russification ... Polish authorities especially at the local level remained ill disposed to what was considered a 'schismatic' church with roots in Russia. Such attitudes resulted in the so-called revindication campaigns.
Didn't Ukrainian Nationalists want a slice of Czechoslovakia too? Their ultimate goal was: an independent and unified Ukrainian state that would include Polish, Soviet, Romanian, and Czechoslovak territories.
Source: Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, Ivan Ivanovich Pop, 2002.
'Greater Ukraine'?
Plans of Ukrainian Nationalists (they obviously wanted to divide Czechoslovakia) were justified based on what?
There were only 60% Ukrainians in Ukrainian West Republic. Double standards? Medieval Kievan Rus territory?
How do you know those are Ukrainian/not Polish families? Sources?
aphrodisiac
The topic is very complex. Apparently, to understand it, one has to know many elements of Poland-Ukraine relations through history. I hope Nathan's comments to which I'm responding are on topic.
The same place where 28 years earlier, in 1918 Poles did the following:
Sadly, around that time, both Poles and Ukrainians committed crimes against Jews.
On the day Polish independence was declared,anti-Jewish violence, hitherto rare in Poland, erupted throughout the country. In the eastern borderlands for the next three years numerous armies, paramilitary units, and bands of outlaws slaughtered each other as well as masses of civilians. While Jews fell victim primarily to Ukrainian forces, there were also cases of pogroms staged by Polish forces.
Source: The world reacts to the Holocaust, David S. Wyman, Charles H. Rosenzveig, published by John Hopkins University, 1996.
During the first half of 1919, in his uphill fight against the Red Army, Petlura blinked at the pogroms carried out or sanctioned by his own troops or by the hetmans who were beyond his control. In his eyes the Jews were at once anti-Ukrainian and pro-bolshevik.
Source: Source: Violence and Terror in the French and Russian Revolutions, Arno J. Mayer, 2002
Various forces attacked Jews in Ukraine.
The number of Jews murdered in the Ukrainian pogroms from the end of 1917 until 1920 is estimated at 75,000. Many of them were murdered in the most brutal fashion or horribly tortured. Thousands were injured, women were raped, and the meagre belongings of the poor were plundered and destroyed.
Source: A History of the Jewish people, H. Ben-Sasson, Harvard University 1976
And Polish church became a vehicle of Polonization. So, what are we arguing here about?
It seems incorrect to assume that Orthodox Church was the main source of Ukrainian Nationalism in prewar Poland. In XXc (1920s-1930s), 'Ukrainian' Orthodox churches still conducted sermons in Russian, e.g. in Volhynia, contrary to Uniate ones. Furthermore, most of Ukrainians in Poland were Uniates (even in censuses, Uniates equal Ukrainians, the center of Ukrainian Nationalism in XIX/XXc was Austrian Galicia), the action did not affect them. The goal of 're-vindication' couldn't have been simply destruction of Ukrainian nationalism.
You said that it was done 'to fight Ukrainian nationalism'. Right? There is more to it.
Ukrainian Orhodox Church as a vehicle of rusification + prof. Magocsi's words: Orthodox Church in Poland was historically associated with the tsarist government and its policy of russification ... Polish authorities especially at the local level remained ill disposed to what was considered a 'schismatic' church with roots in Russia. Such attitudes resulted in the so-called revindication campaigns.
Poland signed an agreement with Czechoslovakia in 1925 too, which it betrayed
Didn't Ukrainian Nationalists want a slice of Czechoslovakia too? Their ultimate goal was: an independent and unified Ukrainian state that would include Polish, Soviet, Romanian, and Czechoslovak territories.
Carpatho-Ukraine, also known as Subcarpathian Rus was a self-governingpart of the federal, second Czechoslovak Republic. Carpatho-Ukraine functioned as an autonomous province from October 12, 1938 to March 14, 1939
Ukrainian Nationalist historiography and populist writingshave described Carpatho-Ukraine as a “Ukrainian State” that existed in late 1938 and early 1939.
The pro-Ukrainian government that was formed in autonomous Subcarpathian Rus' on October 26, 1938, under the leadership of Avhustyn Voloshyn, came into being on instructions from Nazi German authorities in Berlin.
The governing system of Carpatho-Ukraine was greatly influenced by members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), who in turn were closely linked to Nazi Germany. The OUN intended to transform Carpatho-Ukraine into the Piedmont, or what it described as “the pure kernel” of an independent Greater Ukraine.
Source: Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, Ivan Ivanovich Pop, 2002.
'Greater Ukraine'?
Plans of Ukrainian Nationalists (they obviously wanted to divide Czechoslovakia) were justified based on what?
According to the Austro-Hungarian census of 1910, the territory claimed by the West Ukrainian People's Republic had about 5.4 million people. Of these, 3,291,000 (approximately 60%) were Ukrainians, 1,351,000 (approximately 25%) were Poles, 660,000 (approximately 12%) were Jews.
There were only 60% Ukrainians in Ukrainian West Republic. Double standards? Medieval Kievan Rus territory?
And all the atrocities and 350 ways of killing fantasy of yours is pure BS as everything you say.
...or even pictures of Ukrainian families, presented as Polish, murdered by who knows whom in what was going in Ukraine at that time.
...or even pictures of Ukrainian families, presented as Polish, murdered by who knows whom in what was going in Ukraine at that time.
How do you know those are Ukrainian/not Polish families? Sources?
porzeczka
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
Source:
Б. Жуків., Нищення церков на Холмщині в 1938 р. з 25 ілюстраціями, Краків 1940.
B. Zhukiv, "Destruction of churches in Holm area in 1938", 25 illustrations, published in Cracow 1940.
Source:
Б. Жуків., Нищення церков на Холмщині в 1938 р. з 25 ілюстраціями, Краків 1940.
B. Zhukiv, "Destruction of churches in Holm area in 1938", 25 illustrations, published in Cracow 1940.
porzeczka
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
Official Russian data for 1906:
Strange proportion of churches and believers.
Official Russian data for 1906:
- Chełm district: 70 884 Catholics, 58 870 Orthodox, 11 Catholic churches, 47 Orthodox churches
- Hrubieszów district: 48 238 Catholics, 65 105 Orthodox, 8 Catholic churches, 63 Orthodox churches
- Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches
- Włodawa district: 44 175 Catholics, 43 576 Orthodox, 7 Catholic churches, 30 Orthodox churches
- Konstantynow district: 64 520 Catholics, 6346 Orthodox, 9 Catholic churches, 23 Orthodox churches
- Bialsk Podlaski district: 46 968 Catholics, 22 089 Orthodox, 9 Catholic churches, 33 Orthodox churches
- Radzyń district: 82 745 Catholics, 3838 Orthodox, 6 Catholic churches, 16 Orthodox churches
- Hrubieszów district: 48 238 Catholics, 65 105 Orthodox, 8 Catholic churches, 63 Orthodox churches
- Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches
- Włodawa district: 44 175 Catholics, 43 576 Orthodox, 7 Catholic churches, 30 Orthodox churches
- Konstantynow district: 64 520 Catholics, 6346 Orthodox, 9 Catholic churches, 23 Orthodox churches
- Bialsk Podlaski district: 46 968 Catholics, 22 089 Orthodox, 9 Catholic churches, 33 Orthodox churches
- Radzyń district: 82 745 Catholics, 3838 Orthodox, 6 Catholic churches, 16 Orthodox churches
Strange proportion of churches and believers.
porzeczka
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
Why do you make stuff up?
1890-1900:
1939:
2004:
Info: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
I will answer the rest tomorrow.
You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw while burning hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Western Ukraine if you indeed were revindicating.
Why do you make stuff up?
1890-1900:
1939:
2004:
Info: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
I will answer the rest tomorrow.
porzeczka
7 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
Apparently some churches were returned to (Catholic) faithful, some were demolished. It didn't cross your mind that Orthodox Churches built by Tsarist authorities were the ones in most cases destroyed? It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.
Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...
Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.
Not for long. The territory we talk about was part of Kingdom of Hungary since the beginning of 11th and later of Austria-Hungary.
In the first place, Rusyns wanted independence.
Ukrainian Nationalists took advantage of the weakness of Czechoslovakia and with Nazi blessing politically took over Subcarpatian Rus. The name Carpatho-Ukraine was imposed by Voloshyn's goverment.
Czechoslovaks didn't know everything about Voloshyn. Here is the reason of his 'strange' behavior:
Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, 2002
out of 3 100 Orthodox churches Catholics demanded restitution of 880 post-Catholic temples, including 240 Roman Catholic and 640 Unite Catholic.
Apparently some churches were returned to (Catholic) faithful, some were demolished. It didn't cross your mind that Orthodox Churches built by Tsarist authorities were the ones in most cases destroyed? It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.
Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...
W stolicy Polski pozostały tylko dwie cerkwie prawosławne. Inne zwrócono przedrozbiorowym właścicielom (dotyczyło to zarekwirowanych przez carat świątyń katolickich), przekazano innym wyznaniom lub zburzono.
Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.
A great deal of this territory and its settlers subsequently became the western edge of Rus' principality at the start of the 9th century,
Not for long. The territory we talk about was part of Kingdom of Hungary since the beginning of 11th and later of Austria-Hungary.
in July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovyna; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state.
Under the unfavorable circumstances, having no army or other ways of influencing political decisions, Rusyns voted for the best available option - Czechoslovakia.
Under the unfavorable circumstances, having no army or other ways of influencing political decisions, Rusyns voted for the best available option - Czechoslovakia.
In the first place, Rusyns wanted independence.
Ukrainian Nationalists took advantage of the weakness of Czechoslovakia and with Nazi blessing politically took over Subcarpatian Rus. The name Carpatho-Ukraine was imposed by Voloshyn's goverment.
In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:
(1) a single-party system,
(2) the adoption of Ukrainian nationalists ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permitted interment without trial at a Camp in Dumen,
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization 'Carpathian Sich', which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government,
(4) the abolishion of an independent judiciary.
(1) a single-party system,
(2) the adoption of Ukrainian nationalists ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permitted interment without trial at a Camp in Dumen,
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization 'Carpathian Sich', which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government,
(4) the abolishion of an independent judiciary.
Czechoslovaks didn't know everything about Voloshyn. Here is the reason of his 'strange' behavior:
When, on March 14, 1939, Slovakia declared itself independent, Czechoslovakia in effect ceased to exist and Carpatho-Ukraine found itself in a political vacuum.Voloshyn responded by declaring late in the evening of March 14 Carpatho-Ukraine's independence and calling on the German government to accept it as a protectorate.
After his election by the diet as president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn was faced with the following realities:Nazi Germany rejected his request that Carpatho-Ukraine become a protectorate; the Hungarian government delivered an ultimatum calling upon the Carpathian Sich to cease its military resistance; and the Czechoslovak Army evacuated the region.
Encyclopedia of Rusyn history and culture, Paul R. Magocsi, 2002
porzeczka
8 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]
Do yous seriously think that no churches were built for hundred(s) of years, and none under Tsarist rule? Or did I understand you wrong? Around year 1920, there were three types of Orthodox churches in Poland:
- 'Ancient' Orthodox churches (as you call them),
- Orthodox Churches built by Tsar
- Orthodox churches that were former Uniate or Roman Catholic churches.
Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.
12 times more Uniates than Orthodox followers in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, hence it could be some 10 -12 times more Uniate churches + Roman Catholic churches. During tsarist rule, the proportion of churches and believers was disturbed. Even in regions with Catholic majority, Catholics had several times less churches than Orthodox e.g. Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches. Not to mention that many of those Orthodox 'believers' were former Catholics who were forcefully converted to Orthodox faith.
I wanted to show an example of russification (#158) and included two pictures of the Church in Warsaw
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
One picture presenting the Catholic Church before Russification and the other one - the same church after Russification. Apparently you thought that the Church is still Orthodox temple to this day (you didn't notice that the second picture was old, actually more than century old).
The church in question was transfered into Catholic Cathedral in 1919, and I already posted something about it.
Only two Orthodox churches were left untouched in Polish capital. Do you know how many other were destroyed or converted into Catholic churches? Were all 'Ukrainian' churches destroyed or given back to Catholic faithful? No! So your divagations make no sense.
Everyone knew about the independence? And by independence you mean Nazi protectorate?
If there are better sources than wikipedia than why not use them?
That quote was about autonomous Subcarpathian Rus/Carpatho-Ukraine!!!! Here are fragments from the book:
rusyn.org/polcarpathoukraine.html
Carpatho-Ukraine under Voloshyn's government became a tool in the hands of OUN activists, and even more so it was used by Nazi Germany for its own purposes. In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:
(1) a single-party system;
(2) the adoption of a Ukrainian nationalist ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permittedinternment without trial at a camp in *Dumen;
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization, the *Carpathian Sich, which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government;
(4) the abolition of an independent judiciary.
And explanation of this:
O. Subtelny, A Ukraine, 2000.
Do yous seriously think that no churches were built for hundred(s) of years, and none under Tsarist rule? Or did I understand you wrong? Around year 1920, there were three types of Orthodox churches in Poland:
- 'Ancient' Orthodox churches (as you call them),
- Orthodox Churches built by Tsar
- Orthodox churches that were former Uniate or Roman Catholic churches.
At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some4.7 million Uniatesin the Polish-Lithuanian state andbarely 400000 Orthodox believers.
Polish encounters, Russian identity, David L. Ransel, 2005.
12 times more Uniates than Orthodox followers in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, hence it could be some 10 -12 times more Uniate churches + Roman Catholic churches. During tsarist rule, the proportion of churches and believers was disturbed. Even in regions with Catholic majority, Catholics had several times less churches than Orthodox e.g. Tomaszów district: 56 284 Catholics, 42 921 Orthodox, 12 Catholic churches, 66 Orthodox churches. Not to mention that many of those Orthodox 'believers' were former Catholics who were forcefully converted to Orthodox faith.
But again you avoid my question of why these churches were left untouched and Russian Orthodox in the middle of Polish capital and Poles who were so eager to fight tsar and his policies went all the way to Volyn' and started destruction of Ukrainian churches there as a revindication? Hope this time you'll answer my question.
I wanted to show an example of russification (#158) and included two pictures of the Church in Warsaw
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katedra_Polowa_Wojska_Polskiego_w_Warszawie
One picture presenting the Catholic Church before Russification and the other one - the same church after Russification. Apparently you thought that the Church is still Orthodox temple to this day (you didn't notice that the second picture was old, actually more than century old).
Why do you show pictures ofUNBURNED RUSSIAN CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE OF FREAKING CAPITAL OF YOURS and give this as an example of your REVINDICATION on RUSSIAN policy
You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw
The church in question was transfered into Catholic Cathedral in 1919, and I already posted something about it.
Only two Orthodox churches were left untouched in Polish capital. Do you know how many other were destroyed or converted into Catholic churches? Were all 'Ukrainian' churches destroyed or given back to Catholic faithful? No! So your divagations make no sense.
by still existing Czech government, that very Voloshyn (a Ukrainian priest, by the way) tried to preserve independance of this land WHILE BEING SUPPORTED BY CZECH TROOPS WHICH KNEW ABOUT THE INDEPENDANCE BECAUSE IT WAS FREAKING DECLARED AND EVERYONE KNEW. But since Hitler refused its independance he and the CZECH army retreated unwilling to die against the overpowering force.
Everyone knew about the independence? And by independence you mean Nazi protectorate?
When, on March 14, 1939, Slovakia declared itself independent, Czechoslovakia in effect ceased to exist and Carpatho-Ukraine found itself in a political vacuum.Voloshyn responded by declaring late in the evening of March 14 Carpatho-Ukraine's independence and calling on the German government to accept it as a protectorate....
After his election by the diet as president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn was faced with the following realities: Nazi Germany rejected his request that Carpatho-Ukraine become a protectorate; the Hungarian government delivered an ultimatum calling upon the Carpathian Sich to cease its military resistance;and the Czechoslovak Army evacuated the region. Voloshyn decided to dismiss the cabinet just chosen by the diet and, together with the leading activists of Carpatho-Ukraine, he left immediately for Romania and eventually Prague which by then was part of Germany's Third Reich.
After his election by the diet as president of Carpatho-Ukraine, Voloshyn was faced with the following realities: Nazi Germany rejected his request that Carpatho-Ukraine become a protectorate; the Hungarian government delivered an ultimatum calling upon the Carpathian Sich to cease its military resistance;and the Czechoslovak Army evacuated the region. Voloshyn decided to dismiss the cabinet just chosen by the diet and, together with the leading activists of Carpatho-Ukraine, he left immediately for Romania and eventually Prague which by then was part of Germany's Third Reich.
If there are better sources than wikipedia than why not use them?
How can you say how popular or unpopular were the policy of the country if it existed only a few days or even hours?
That quote was about autonomous Subcarpathian Rus/Carpatho-Ukraine!!!! Here are fragments from the book:
rusyn.org/polcarpathoukraine.html
Carpatho-Ukraine under Voloshyn's government became a tool in the hands of OUN activists, and even more so it was used by Nazi Germany for its own purposes. In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:
(1) a single-party system;
(2) the adoption of a Ukrainian nationalist ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permittedinternment without trial at a camp in *Dumen;
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization, the *Carpathian Sich, which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government;
(4) the abolition of an independent judiciary.
the attitude of the Ukrainians of that time is well shown in the statements of Mykhailo Hrushevskyj, an early Ukrainian nationalists leader, who claimed that: "the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be consideredthe cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".[6]
And explanation of this:
The Cultural confrontationbetween the Ukrainians and the Poles cost the former dearly: it forced Ukrainian nobles to choose between their own stagnant, impoverished cultural heritage an the vibrant attractive Catholic/Polish culture. Not surprisingly, the vast majority opted for Catholicism and the Polonization that invariably followed. Consequently, the Ukrainian lost their noble elite.
O. Subtelny, A Ukraine, 2000.
porzeczka
22 Jul 2011
Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]
There is a word Babusia in Polish langauge (Wielki słownik ortograficzny - PWN). Busia/Busha might, indeed, be a shortened form of it.
Busia/busha is a bona fide word in colloquial Polish-American speech. There are even 'I love my Busia' T-shirts and suchlike gadgets.
There is a word Babusia in Polish langauge (Wielki słownik ortograficzny - PWN). Busia/Busha might, indeed, be a shortened form of it.
porzeczka
23 Jul 2011
Life / Polish and Czechs [191]
Not those who live in Czech Republic.
The poll was conducted in March 2011.
praguemonitor.com/2011/04/18/poll-roma-are-least-popular-minority-%C4%8Dr
I think the Czechs dislike Poles
Not those who live in Czech Republic.
Czechs consider Slovaks the most popular minority, with 92 percent of them saying they have a positive attitude towards them. Other popular ethnic minorities are Poles (78 percent), Greeks (63 percent) and Jews (60 percent).
The poll was conducted in March 2011.
praguemonitor.com/2011/04/18/poll-roma-are-least-popular-minority-%C4%8Dr
porzeczka
23 Jul 2011
Life / Polish and Czechs [191]
So treat it is simply as an expression of sympathy and antipathy towards certain nations (10). The most popular in Poland (according to CBOS, 2011) are: Czechs, Slovaks, Spanish, Italians and Hungarians. Unfortunately, such polls usually are about people 'we don't know', often reflection of stereotypes and generalizations.
Polish-Czech past conflicts seem to be more important to outsiders than to Czechs and Poles. There were also good things in our common history. Why not concentrate on them?
Czechs don't have any sizeable minority anymore, the poll is about people they don't know anyway. I mean... Jews?
So treat it is simply as an expression of sympathy and antipathy towards certain nations (10). The most popular in Poland (according to CBOS, 2011) are: Czechs, Slovaks, Spanish, Italians and Hungarians. Unfortunately, such polls usually are about people 'we don't know', often reflection of stereotypes and generalizations.
Do Czechs like us? I don't know - they certainly have reasons to dislike us, when you look at history, but I think that for most Czechs history is not as important as it is to Poles.
Polish-Czech past conflicts seem to be more important to outsiders than to Czechs and Poles. There were also good things in our common history. Why not concentrate on them?
porzeczka
4 Jan 2012
Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]
Just to finally close this case ;) - a few more sources confirming that the word "busia" exists in Polish dialects:
1. Mieczysław Szymczak, "Nazwy stopni pokrewieństwa i powinowactwa rodzinnego w historii i dialektach je̜zyka polskiego" ("Names of degrees of kinship and affinity in history of Polish language and dialects").
books.google.pl/books?id=dm7RAAAAMAAJ&q=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&dq=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&hl=pl&ei=42isTprXN8XO-QbmobTqAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA
Forma babcia dominuje w Małopolsce, na Mazowszu i w Wielkopolsce (w sumie 132 zapisy), forma babusia - w dialekcie kociewkim, tucholskim, krajniackim, chełmińskim i północnowielkopolskim (w sumie 26 zapisów). Ta ostatnia na wymienionym terenie stała się w wielu wypadkach formą neutralną, w związku z czym funkcję hipokorystyczną przejęła forma będąca jej pieszczotliwym skróceniem, mianowicie busia, zanotowana przez nas na wymienionym terenie w jedenastu miejscowościach.
Again, "busia" is a hypocoristic form.
2. Mieczysław Karaś, Jerzy Reichan, "Słownik gwar polskich: opracowany przez Zaklad dialektologii polskiej Instytutu języka polskiego PAN w Krakowie" ("Dictionary of Polish Dialects...")
books.google.pl/books?ei=OKOqTqznOqjj4QSR2_nrDg&ct=result&hl=pl&id=IHRXAAAAYAAJ&dq=busia++s%C5%82ownik&q=busia#search_anchor
Busia - matka ojca lub matki.
3. Kazimierz Nitsch, "Mały atlas gwar polskich" (Small atlas of Polish dialects)
books.google.pl/books?id=GuhKAAAAYAAJ&q=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&dq=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=-b IET8foFYWZhQfJvs2iAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA
na zachodnim Śląsku - babcia, w Wielkopolsce z Krajną - babusia, busia, babcia i babka, w Borach Tucholskich - babusia, busia i babka, na Kaszubach - babusia, babuśka, babcia, babka i sporadycznie babula, babulka.
4. Honorata Skoczylas-Stawska. Biuletyn Polskiego Towarzystwa językoznawczego, "Z badań nad słownictwem pogranicza językowego wielkopolsko-śląsko-małopolskiego w województwie kaliskim." ("Research on language vocabulary in the borderlands of Silesia, Greater Poland, Little Poland, in Kalisz voivodship").
books.google.pl/books?id=Ef8oAQAAIAAJ&q=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&dq=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&hl=pl&ei=yGmsTovdHoGE-waGg83uDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA
Babcia, babciuchna, babusia, babuśka, busia, babunia...
5. An interesting finding (from 1879!) Antoni Małecki, "Gramatyka historyczno-porównawcza języka polskiego".
327. 3. Kategoryi trzeciej okazy:busia,babusia, babcia, Marysia . Władzia , ciocia itp
It is possible that this word was more common in the past.
books.google.pl/books?ei=erMET5GqIcSyhAfG9_zZCQ&hl=pl&id=8RQOAAAAIAAJ&dq=babcia+busia&q=+busia#search_anchor
These three shouldn't be overlooked:
6. "Słownik Gwary Mazurów Wieleńskich"
drawsko.freehost.pl/ok/30maja/Sandra/slownik.html
7. "Gwara babimojska".
babimojszczyzna.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=88
Link to Boletus' source - 8. Hanna Makurat, "Kociewskie babuś, buś na tle leksyki kociewskiej" ("Kocievian babuś, buś in the context of Kocievian lexis."), page 18.
"Babusia" (just like "Mamusia") IS a standard Polish word.
PWN dictionary: sjp.pl/babusia
and there you have it. time to move on.
Just to finally close this case ;) - a few more sources confirming that the word "busia" exists in Polish dialects:
1. Mieczysław Szymczak, "Nazwy stopni pokrewieństwa i powinowactwa rodzinnego w historii i dialektach je̜zyka polskiego" ("Names of degrees of kinship and affinity in history of Polish language and dialects").
books.google.pl/books?id=dm7RAAAAMAAJ&q=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&dq=%E2%80%9Dmianowicie+busia%E2%80%9D&hl=pl&ei=42isTprXN8XO-QbmobTqAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA
Forma babcia dominuje w Małopolsce, na Mazowszu i w Wielkopolsce (w sumie 132 zapisy), forma babusia - w dialekcie kociewkim, tucholskim, krajniackim, chełmińskim i północnowielkopolskim (w sumie 26 zapisów). Ta ostatnia na wymienionym terenie stała się w wielu wypadkach formą neutralną, w związku z czym funkcję hipokorystyczną przejęła forma będąca jej pieszczotliwym skróceniem, mianowicie busia, zanotowana przez nas na wymienionym terenie w jedenastu miejscowościach.
Again, "busia" is a hypocoristic form.
2. Mieczysław Karaś, Jerzy Reichan, "Słownik gwar polskich: opracowany przez Zaklad dialektologii polskiej Instytutu języka polskiego PAN w Krakowie" ("Dictionary of Polish Dialects...")
books.google.pl/books?ei=OKOqTqznOqjj4QSR2_nrDg&ct=result&hl=pl&id=IHRXAAAAYAAJ&dq=busia++s%C5%82ownik&q=busia#search_anchor
Busia - matka ojca lub matki.
3. Kazimierz Nitsch, "Mały atlas gwar polskich" (Small atlas of Polish dialects)
books.google.pl/books?id=GuhKAAAAYAAJ&q=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&dq=Maly+atlas+gwar+polskich:+opracowany+przez+Pracowni%C4%99+Dialektologiczn%C4%85+Zak%C5%82adu&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=-b IET8foFYWZhQfJvs2iAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA
na zachodnim Śląsku - babcia, w Wielkopolsce z Krajną - babusia, busia, babcia i babka, w Borach Tucholskich - babusia, busia i babka, na Kaszubach - babusia, babuśka, babcia, babka i sporadycznie babula, babulka.
4. Honorata Skoczylas-Stawska. Biuletyn Polskiego Towarzystwa językoznawczego, "Z badań nad słownictwem pogranicza językowego wielkopolsko-śląsko-małopolskiego w województwie kaliskim." ("Research on language vocabulary in the borderlands of Silesia, Greater Poland, Little Poland, in Kalisz voivodship").
books.google.pl/books?id=Ef8oAQAAIAAJ&q=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&dq=Nazwy+babka,+babcia,+babciuchna+busia&hl=pl&ei=yGmsTovdHoGE-waGg83uDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA
Babcia, babciuchna, babusia, babuśka, busia, babunia...
5. An interesting finding (from 1879!) Antoni Małecki, "Gramatyka historyczno-porównawcza języka polskiego".
327. 3. Kategoryi trzeciej okazy:busia,babusia, babcia, Marysia . Władzia , ciocia itp
It is possible that this word was more common in the past.
books.google.pl/books?ei=erMET5GqIcSyhAfG9_zZCQ&hl=pl&id=8RQOAAAAIAAJ&dq=babcia+busia&q=+busia#search_anchor
These three shouldn't be overlooked:
6. "Słownik Gwary Mazurów Wieleńskich"
drawsko.freehost.pl/ok/30maja/Sandra/slownik.html
7. "Gwara babimojska".
babimojszczyzna.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=88
Link to Boletus' source - 8. Hanna Makurat, "Kociewskie babuś, buś na tle leksyki kociewskiej" ("Kocievian babuś, buś in the context of Kocievian lexis."), page 18.
"Babusia" (just like "Mamusia") IS a standard Polish word.
PWN dictionary: sjp.pl/babusia
porzeczka
9 Jan 2012
History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]
No census is 100% reliable. However, these are the possible alternatives (regarding Polish-Lithuanian conflict over Vilnius/Wilno):
1. Russian census of 1897:
Vilnius/Wilno - Jews (40%), Poles (30,1%), Russians (20,9%), Belarusians (4,3%), Lithuanians (2,1%), Germans (1,4%), Tatars (0.5%), Ukrainians (0,3%), Other (0,4%)
Vilna Governorate (most of its territory seems to be in Belarus now; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg) - Belarusians (56,1%), Lithuanians (17,6%), Jews (12,5%), Poles (8,2%), Russians (4,9%), Germans (0,2%), Tatars (0,1%), Ukrainians (0,1%), Other (0,1%).
2. German census of 1916:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (50,2%), Jews (43,5%), Lithuanians (2,6%), Russians (1,5%), Other (2,2%)
Occupied Lithuania - Poles (58%), Lithuanians (18,5%), Jews (14,7%), Belarusians (6,4%), Russians (1,2%), Other (1,2%).
3. Polish census of 1921:
Administrative district Area of Wilno - Poles (57,9%), Belarusians (25,7%), Jews (8,1%), Other (8,3%).
4. German-Lithuanian census of 1942:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (41,89%), Jews (27,78%), Lithuanians (24,37%), Russians (1,95%), Belarusians (2,55%), Germans (0,25%), Other (1,21%)
Wilna-Gebiet - Lithuanians (43,44%), Poles (42,20%), Belarusians (10,89%), Russians (3,05%), Other (0,42%).
5. Soviet census of 1959:
Vilnius/Wilno - Lithuanians (33,6%), Russians (29,4%), Poles (20%), Jews (7%), Belarusians (6,2%), Ukrainians (2,8%), Other (1%).
Ethnic history of Vilnius region.
/wiki/Ethnic_history_of_the_Vilnius_region
No census is 100% reliable. However, these are the possible alternatives (regarding Polish-Lithuanian conflict over Vilnius/Wilno):
1. Russian census of 1897:
Vilnius/Wilno - Jews (40%), Poles (30,1%), Russians (20,9%), Belarusians (4,3%), Lithuanians (2,1%), Germans (1,4%), Tatars (0.5%), Ukrainians (0,3%), Other (0,4%)
Vilna Governorate (most of its territory seems to be in Belarus now; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg) - Belarusians (56,1%), Lithuanians (17,6%), Jews (12,5%), Poles (8,2%), Russians (4,9%), Germans (0,2%), Tatars (0,1%), Ukrainians (0,1%), Other (0,1%).
2. German census of 1916:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (50,2%), Jews (43,5%), Lithuanians (2,6%), Russians (1,5%), Other (2,2%)
Occupied Lithuania - Poles (58%), Lithuanians (18,5%), Jews (14,7%), Belarusians (6,4%), Russians (1,2%), Other (1,2%).
3. Polish census of 1921:
Administrative district Area of Wilno - Poles (57,9%), Belarusians (25,7%), Jews (8,1%), Other (8,3%).
4. German-Lithuanian census of 1942:
Vilnius/Wilno - Poles (41,89%), Jews (27,78%), Lithuanians (24,37%), Russians (1,95%), Belarusians (2,55%), Germans (0,25%), Other (1,21%)
Wilna-Gebiet - Lithuanians (43,44%), Poles (42,20%), Belarusians (10,89%), Russians (3,05%), Other (0,42%).
5. Soviet census of 1959:
Vilnius/Wilno - Lithuanians (33,6%), Russians (29,4%), Poles (20%), Jews (7%), Belarusians (6,2%), Ukrainians (2,8%), Other (1%).
Ethnic history of Vilnius region.
/wiki/Ethnic_history_of_the_Vilnius_region
porzeczka
10 Jan 2012
History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]
The interesting thing is that Vilnius/Wilno/Вiльня was also claimed as part of an independent Belarus in 1918.
Belarusians could have argued that they were a majority/plurality in the area surrounding the city - according to the Russian census from 1897, they were 56,1% of population in Vilna Governorate.
The interesting thing is that Vilnius/Wilno/Вiльня was also claimed as part of an independent Belarus in 1918.
Belarusians could have argued that they were a majority/plurality in the area surrounding the city - according to the Russian census from 1897, they were 56,1% of population in Vilna Governorate.
porzeczka
10 Jan 2012
History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]
And before 1918:
How do you know that?
There was a project to create a state with Belarus, but politicians had disagreements, then came soviets and all ended.
And before 1918:
Belarusian national activists were as present in Vil'nia as their Lithuanian rivals. They too harkened back to the Grand Duchy, regarded themselves as its heirs, and claimed Vil'nia as their capital.4 Unlike Lithuanian activists, who were convinced that the 1569 union with Poland had destroyed Lithuanian independence, Belarusian activists favored a revived Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This reflected, as we have seen, an important difference in historical interpretation. The Lithuanian critique of the Polish connection began in the 1840s, and was publicized in the 1880s; it appears that no Belarusian thinker even questioned the value of the old Commonwealth before 1910.5
Most of them even didn't know why they came there.
How do you know that?
porzeczka
10 Jan 2012
History / Mother tongue in Poland - acccording to 1931 census. [174]
Individual opinions can be chosen selectively and manipulated to prove a point of view. Media sometimes (or too often) show only one side of the coin. Some talk about Lithuanian propaganda, others about Polish one. Who should we believe?
Vietnamese are not a "national minority" according to Polish law. I'm not aware of any ban on establishing private Vietnamese schools.
For a community to be recognized as a national or ethnic minority, its members have to hold Polish citizenship and the community itself has to meet a total of six conditions. One of the criteria is the following: 'its ancestors have been living on the present territory of the Republic of Poland for at least one hundred years.'
If the law won't change Vietnamese should posses a status of 'national minority' in this century.
mswia.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=755
Individual opinions can be chosen selectively and manipulated to prove a point of view. Media sometimes (or too often) show only one side of the coin. Some talk about Lithuanian propaganda, others about Polish one. Who should we believe?
I mean, given that the vast majority of the 10,000+ Polish Vietnamese live in just two neighbourhoods in Warsaw, there would really only need to be two Vietnamese language schools in the country.
Vietnamese are not a "national minority" according to Polish law. I'm not aware of any ban on establishing private Vietnamese schools.
According to the Act, the following minorities are recognized as national minorities: Belarusians, Czechs, Lithuanians, Germans, Armenians, Russians, Slovaks, Ukrainians and Jews, and the following as ethnic minorities: the Karaim, the Lemko, the Roma and the Tartars.
For a community to be recognized as a national or ethnic minority, its members have to hold Polish citizenship and the community itself has to meet a total of six conditions. One of the criteria is the following: 'its ancestors have been living on the present territory of the Republic of Poland for at least one hundred years.'
If the law won't change Vietnamese should posses a status of 'national minority' in this century.
mswia.gov.pl/download.php?s=2&id=755