News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

Poland thinks about asking NATO for help:

....Poland is meanwhile considering calling on NATO for help in the border conflict. Polish deputy foreign minister Pawel Jablonski told the Polish radio station Zet on Tuesday....

berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/woher-kommen-die-migranten-die-nun-ploetzlich-in-die-eu-draengen-li.193874

...Warsaw has been in constant contact with NATO for weeks and does not rule out a specific request for help if the situation at the border escalates. The former EU Council President and Polish opposition leader Donald Tusk had already discussed such a step on Monday: According to this, Poland could initiate the activation of Article 4 of the NATO treaty. This leads to direct military consultations if the territorial integrity, political independence or security of one of the parties is at risk. Article 4 has been activated repeatedly over the past few years. Turkey made particularly frequent representations to NATO in connection with its activities in the Syrian war. Article 4 is the preliminary stage to the alliance case, which is activated via Article 5 and was activated for the first time after September 11, 2001....

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


I hope not....Lithuania is already warned and prepared!


lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1537044/lithuania-moves-to-declare-state-of-emergency-on-border-with-belarus



Concertina razor wire along the Lithuanian-Belarusian border

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

@jon357

If you had a say in Brussels, what would you the EU have to do?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


But seriously....do you think it will get better when Europe is taking all their young men in?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


If all that energy would be used to change things at home we all would be better off!

Did you never ask if that flight movement has the same function as a pothole? To take out pressure out of the "pot" so that the dictators can rule on abit longer without angry young men who might disturb them?

That's why Afghanistan was such a painful lesson....all these young men had all the support of the whole world...they had more men, they had the logistic and military support, they had more and better weapons and still, they run away from a few Taliban on sandals! Run away directly to Europe!!!

I don't buy that "lack of hope" anymore...they just don't want to fight....they prefer western soldiers to fight....they want what the West has without doing **** for that....if they don't care about their own countries, why should we feel guilty?

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


Immigrants storming into Europe in masses like that meet a european population whose willingness to take them in decreases rapidly....and the EU has the money, the pressure is rising.

Look what tiny poor Greece build on their border to Turkey, alone!



There is nothing leaky about it....


Yes, but they all want to come here....."Germoney"!

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


The only thing we have in our power to change are our borders....that's why the "Festung Europa" will be build.

The rest of the world we can't save all nor have we any kind of control over....

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

....well..."Mutti" Merkel won't make any selfies with these people anymore....that's a plus! :)

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]

...as if you don't have nutty open-borders lefties!

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


I wouldn't be so sure....and Merkel is on the way out, she is a lame duck now....in that regard the decisions lay with the EU anyhow, it's not a german problem only!

German interior minister Seehofer and SPD general secretary Klingbeil already asked the EU to do something, the pressure on Brussels is mounting....

tagesspiegel.de/politik/polen-verurteilt-hybriden-lukaschenko-angriff-seehofer-und-klingbeil-fordern-eu-zum-handeln-an-grenze-zu-belarus-auf/27781302.html

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


But especially the US judges are notorious for having strong political opinions....there are usually elected because of them!

For example is he pro guns or anti abortions...is he pro Dems or more Republican...they are everything but impartial....I'm not sure if I want that here....


Yeah....I don't see Poland as a part of a possible inner core in a "Europe of two speeds" either....

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


And not to forget the Russians on the other side.....like in the good 'ol times right? You only like it if Polands sits alone between all chairs again...the eternal victim, right?

But I don't think it will come to that...PiS already caved in:

reuters.com/world/europe/poland-will-change-disputed-disciplinary-chamber-ruling-party-head-says-2021-08-07/

Not to mention the polish people:

theconversation.com/the-polish-people-support-the-eu-its-their-government-that-continues-to-antagonise-brussels-170324

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

So....with which "dynasties of judges" do you actually disagree with?

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

Well....ditto! :)

You spoke of dynasties of judges.....I'm not sure if you mean those inside a family or related judges appointed by the government?

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

Do you mean a family of judges (which is not that rare) or do you mean related judges in said chamber (which sounds crazy)?

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

Yeah....well.....maybe Poland should in turn bring the german system to the EU court...could be interesting!

I mean that seriously...some things could be surely optimized here too.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


The Bundespräsident is just embellishment.....only need for the presentation at the very end....he has no powers whatsoever!

The judges are elected by a Committee for the Election of Judges. The ministers of the federal states (Länder) responsible for the administrative courts and an equal number of members appointed by the Bundestag sit on this committee.

The Federal Minister of Justice and Consumer Protection chairs the Committee for the Election of Judges. He and all members of the election committee are entitled to propose candidates. The consultative council for judicial appointments of the Federal Administrative Court issues a written opinion about each proposed new member. The Committee for the Election of Judges is not required to accept this vote. It elects the candidates it deems suitable by simple majority.

bverwg.de/en/das-gericht/organisation/richter-und-senate

It's a long process with alot of people from all parties involved, surely not one lone party and it's leader....


?


I have a problem with that too....in Germany we have right now some dispute about one of our judges having been abit to "friendly" with Merkel....

Such things have to be watched....but it's nonsense to forbid a judge a political opinion in the first place....also I have a feeling that a political opinion fitting and supportive of PiS would be more likely accepted as if he would show sympathy to the opposition!

Still...there are worlds between having an opinion and acting as a politician....

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


The separation between the judiciary and the political system is one of the most important cornerstones of every democracy worthy of that name!

It is a benchmark to differentiate between rotten autocratic systems like the Nazis, the Commies, Putin's Russia, Cuba or China....

....The Polish judicial disciplinary panel law is legislation approved by the Sejm (223 to 205) on 20 December 2019. The bill empowers the Disciplinary Chamber at the Supreme Court of Poland to punish judges who engage in "political activity", including questioning the political independence of the panel.[1] Punishment of judges may be a fine, reduction of salary, or termination from their position.[1] The law also changed the manner in which the head of the Supreme Court of Poland is appointed. The Law and Justice party had previously attempted to oust the current head, Małgorzata Gersdorf, and her term expires in 2020.[2] This gives the government, in effect, the ability to control and sack judges. The legislation violates EU judicial system legislation.[3]...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_judicial_disciplinary_panel_law

Spot the difference.....


No it's not! All member states subscribed to certain rules as they opted to become part of the EU....this democratic cornerstone was part of it. They broke it....now they have to fix it!


So....if said political party has gone so far (without a squeak by the EU because...you know....it's an internal affair) that makes it now impossible for the citizens to give their vote? What then, would be then a right time to say something?

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Thing is.....where to start and to stop "things you don't like"?

A member state decided it would be nice to end the independence of the justice and instead put it under political control (of the ruling party of course).

So....what if said party decides to hunt and jail the opposition next? Should someone say something if said political party decides to muzzle media it doesn't like?

Where do you think a union of democratic members should put it's foot down?

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Who do you think decides that? That sounds as if "the EU" is some foreign entity from Mars or elsewhere....pushed on poor, unsuspecting Europeans...

These decisions are made up by their members....keep that in mind!

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

That too counts for both problems!

I just chipped in because I see that regularly....people talking down the fears of the other side, calling them dumb. It's just not right or in any ways a correct assessment IMHO....that was all!

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Yeah....well....guilty! :)


Yes to both questions! So....why does it sound like only dumb rightwingers have those fears?

Generalized speaking one could say one part wants to stop climate change and the other part wants to stop mass immigration....

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

So....there are "good" fears and "bad" fears?

I'm just asking for clarification...because it aren't only right-wingers using the fears of people....but in my opinion the priorities differ. For some the climate is more important and for others for example an unwanted cultural change or uncontrolled mass immigration is more crucial.

Actually building on and using existing insecurities and fears in the electorate belongs to the basic stock of every party which wants to be elected....doesn't it!

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Serious question....then where do you put all these Climate-change-warners? That's running all on doom and gloom and the coming apocalypse....

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]

...with an engraved raised middle finger...

:)

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]


It could have worked....before the expansions! There are not only a few Germans who think back fondly as it was only them and the other founder countries...

But for that plan of old the EU just has become to big....probably led by the naive dream that in time there will be a kind of nivellation happen which will erase all these differences between our countries. It was an illusion, and not even wanted by the majority!

That vision/dream is now being chipped away, slowly but surely....it's an ongoing painful process. In consequence those voices who think a Europe of two speeds would be better become louder. The current bruhaha with Poland is in that regard only a symptom of the underlying problem!

But it will all still take awhile till that transforms into real actions...nothing happens quick in the EU! :)

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]


As ist is right now for sure....

The civil traditions between....say central and north Europe are so different....there is an awareness that a deeper integration is so not possible....the EU has become to big for that. The doubters of the recent expansions have become right in hindsight.

The Euro crisis has put a spotlight onto it.....the "thrifty" northern Europeans, namely Germans, being forced to pay for the "slacking" South....that won't get any better in the near future as the EU is now more than ever poised to hand out money more freely than before....

These alle are unresolved conflicts....which have to be resolved one day....and in my opinion you can't shackle together what doesn't fit together.....some countries have similiar traditions and understandings and can work very well together and a deeper integration would make them stronger, better....and others not!

But I can only guess here....but that the EU has a problem is a fact. Just one example....to become better capable at acting in many lesser important questions it would be enough to implement a majority decision....but it's not happening, for that you need ALL member states to agree...but one or two will always say "no".

And so that to big, to clumsy ship, quarreling stumbles on.....it doesn't work anymore....something has to happen!

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]


In a kind it is!

The EU as it is now seems to have become to big....dysfunctional....to many different members....who can't seem to find a compromise in that important question: more integration or back to the trade union of the beginning.

That's why a split is in my opinion a logical consequence.....then both groups of countries don't have to fight each other anymore.....the old EU, those not wanting to become the USE, will probably further called EU.....all in good time of course, that all won't happen overnight.


Part of the inner, faster core of course! Whenever people are talking about it (in Germany that is), they seem to have certain countries in mind....more or less the founder countries + some interested.

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]


I think it's a tad early to say....every new gov will need time to find its footing.....not matter who becomes foreign minister...

In the end my guess is that the EU will kinda split, inofficially....the often mentioned "Europe of the two speeds". Into those group of countries which are willing to integrate their nations more and become in time a USE, and those who don't want to. Who are perfectly happy with how it is....or was...

It won't be the end of the EU, to many advantages for the members, but that is a nod to the many different traditions the member states come from, and some of these are just not reconcilable....

Where Poland will end up seems clear right now....

Genealogy / Szczebrzeszynie, family name Tzitron. [44]

Now you got me....dammit! :)