History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Countries "liberated" by the USA usually adopt a pro American attitude. In result, they buy American technology and products, attract investment and generally become a source of profit. It is amazing you don`t understand such basic things. As a scientist with patents you should be interested in selling them in as many places as possible - you won`t in a hostile country. :):)

Language / Harmless old-fashioned Polish swear words/phrases [159]


Gupi is stupid. Wradiat sounds like wredny - nasty, mean. Chort - devil. Stupid nasty devil - I think your grandma said it when you were naughty - e.g., you played a silly trick one her. :)

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


No, don`t blame him. :) Maf prefers the old use of nationalism which indeed didn`t imply deningration, racism and xenophoby. Today, though, radical nationalists have turned the word into sth nasty and suspicious.


Guys, don`t let emotions carry us too far - it seems we have run into a purely linguistic problem with the meaning of the word nationalism.


But Ukrainians are already close with Poland. 70% Ukrainians say they like Poland.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]

Yes, but read my complete message above.

I suggest coming back to topic. :):) The discussion is about: Should Poland support Ukrainian aspirations to become the member of the Western world?

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Oh come on, mild nationalism is simply patriotism to me, stop splitting hairs over language intricacies, it is really useless. You know what I mean so why are you diverting this conversation into linguistic dispute. Besides, when I address dolno and other weirdos of his sort, I add obsessed or maniacal - isn`t it enough?

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Yes, there is and I am really amazed you are writing such things. If it weren`t for non-nationalist Poles, Poland wouldn`t be in the EU today. Those who voiced their clearest and toughest objection during the referendum were all nationalists. The further development of events you can easily imagine.

Again, because it has been mentioned many times here, you mistake true patriotism with obsessed aka radical nationalism.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Why are you lying here and in other recent threads that you aren`t an obsessed nationalist? Shall I quote your own words from 2 years ago when you openly admitted you were one and supported nationalism as the best ideology?

If you renounce nationalistic stance now, I will believe you and stop calling you one.


Haha, all maniacal rightists and nationalists resort to this abuse, it has become sort of cliche, change your melody, please. :)

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


If you read sth about history of Ukraine, you would know their territory was divided into Polish and Russian spheres of influence for nearly 300 years. Is it surprising Ukrainians have always been torn between various options? Poland was partitioned "only" for 123 years and it ended 100 years ago but the legacy of it is still present in Poland.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]

Dolno, now you are talking like a true obsessed nationalist who is blind to simple facts.

It is obvious for all rationally thinking observers that Poles should support Ukrainian aspirations towards West.

A more pro-Western Ukraine leads to a more secure Poland by moving East-West borderline further to the East. Just like Germans secured their Eastern frontier by backing Polish access into the EU and NATO.

How? If Russia gains full control of Ukraine, it will lead to Poland becoming a border country directly involved in new Cold War because the subjugation of whole Ukraine will only provoke the Kremlin to desire further enlargement of their empire. Brainwashed Russians will live in utter poverty but will enjoy the imperial successes of their country - that is the Kremlin`s traditional strategy that seems to be working well, as usual. It will be exploited over and over again.

If you don`t like Ukrainians, it is your own right and business. But try to be pragmatic for a while. Are you able to or will you remain in your nationalist shell for ever?

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Yes, they migh feel like that. But you mentioned 1991. Don`t forget that for many years since then most Ukrainians were against joining NATO and undecided about EU. Their attitude has changed only recently, after Russian aggression.

Unfortunately, Ukraine missed an important moment in history when Russia was weak. Poland didn`t - all political forces, including post communists, worked hard for Polish membership both in NATO and EU. And the society was unanimous too.

Ukraine wasn`t so lucky and now will have to wait ad infinitum, I am afraid. Pity, indeed. .

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

It isn`t correct to cite a British politician in our debate about mostly positive effect of Polish EU membership as a lot of Brits have had issues with Europe and half of them support Brexit.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


If you view them as random and complain in result, then our discussion is in fact useless. :) and we can close it.
Or, I will give you one more chance - think hard and try to arrive at a conclusion: why did I ask them and why aren`t they random? Now you have an opportunity to use some intelligence. :)

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]

But you know that the disintegration of Russia will be preceded or followed by the civil war there. Who will control the nukes? Winners. What will be their agenda? :)

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


I won`t, of course. :) But they need to be realistic, too.


I am afraid you overestimate the US engagement in aiding Ukraine now and mistake it for real support for Ukrainian membership. I would prefer to be cautious here. As for Poland and the Baltics, let`s be realistic again - they are not heavy weight players in NATO.


Do you suggest a disintegration of Russia might take place? :) That would be the only situation allowing Ukraine join NATO. Or not? Disintegrated or not, Russia will still have issues with Crimea and Donbas. The case is closed for decades, again.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


I am afraid it is not so simple. :) Tender procedures are required in the EU countries for all projects. Yes, they can be rigged, e.g., through bribing, like it happens in all countries, but family and friends? Do you agree with Ironside that Poland is a banana republic?

Guys, a good way to assess Polish membership is to compare Poland with her non-EU neighbours. E.g., Belarus was close behind Poland in 1990s and the beginning of 2000s - Poland`s GDP was only about 15% higher than Belarus`. Later the distance grew steadily each year and today Poland is better by 60%.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Do you suggest 100 billion euros worth loans were embezzled by corrupt politicians or enterpreners? I haven`t heard about it before. Please, explain.


How come twice over? You need to check your maths. If 100 billion euros is for free and the other 100 is borrowed and must be paid as you say, it is not twice but once. Isn`t it?

Also, you mentioned Poland was a banana republic. I am afraid you are using words which you don`t understand - life in Poland certainly doesn`t resemble that of a banana republic.

Also, you mentioned Polish giant net cost to the EU. But if you read the starting post, you would know that I already deducted that cost from the whole finance, leaving 100 billion in the black for Poland.

Also, you said that Poland`s agriculture was strong before the EU accession. Of course it is BS on your part, it wasn`t strong at all but backward and inefficient.

Also, you suggested that EU is dictatorial because it is planning to censor the Net. Not so fast, my dear, the primary aim of the new law is to protect copyrights, not introduce censorship.

Also, you mentioned the costly introduction of EU laws in Poland. Yes, those bins for rubbish segregation required in the Eu are indeed expensive and you must have 5 of them which means ruin to your budget.

Also, you said that GDB is bullsh.t. Well, I suppose you wouldn`t like to live in a country whose GDP is 5.000 (your favourite banana republic) instead of in Poland with the GDP nearly 30.000 (PPP)


Please, relax and come back to reason because it is clear you are blinded by nationalist fury which makes your arguments little rubbishy. :)

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


The truth is it was easier to get an American visa than British one before the EU accession. E.g., my cousin had met a British man of Polish descent, after some time they decided to get married and settle in GB. I remember she told us about her long discussions with British consulate workers who were reluctant to issue a visa because they claimed the marriage was a scam!. She had to bring and show them private letters from her fiance.


Exactly and sometimes even that wasn`t enough. I remember someone told me about a Pole who had got an invitation from a British man. While talking about a visa, a consulate clerk refused to issue it, claiming they were gays and he didn`t support such relationships. :)


Yes, but Poland and Ukraine have negotiated bilateral government agreements concerning job migrants. Before the EU accession, Poland didn`t have such agreements with the UK.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


A nice set of expressions. :)

However, it always amused me how rightists and nationalists spit on the EU and at the same time relentlessly suck all benefits from it. If not for that bastard, you would have never got a visa to the United Kingdom to find a better job, like 1 million Poles.


Sorry, but nationalists can`t create anything positive. Their only creation is animosity and enmity. You would create internment camps for your opponents, that`s all.


That`s a very radical view.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


The possibility of doing sth or not is not the same as actually doing it. Look at Ukraine - when were they allowed to travel to the EU without visas? In 2017. Can you imagine Poles waiting so long? So don`t tell us about Norway - 2 million Norwegians didn`t leave their country to look for better paid jobs. Non EU-Poles would never gain Norwegians` non-visa status, forget it, it is pure daydreaming of a kindergarten child. :)


Is it the fault of the EU? It is the recipient country which decides what the funds are being spent on. Besides, why are you talking about Spain? Tell us about flunked projects in Poland, Yes, there are a few but I am not going to look it up for you.


Yes, I must admit sometimes your irony is appreciated. :):)

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


This is nothing compared to invaluable benefit coming from integration: spreading democracy and stability in Europe. E.g., isn`t it advantageous for Germans to have a reasonable predictable partner in the East with whom they have common European interests instead of a suspicious nationalist satrapy?


I am sorry but we are not talking about the dissolvement of the EU and coming back to old times. We are talking about Poland in or out of the EU which is going to remain an entity for a long time.


I fully understand you both want to abolish the EU. Forget it, guys. :):)

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Of course not. You forget about custom tariffs on import into the EU from non-EU countries - Polish companies don`t have to pay them and that is one of the reasons Polish economy is doing better every year.


Of course not. Poland would never achieve Norway status in travelling if out of the EU.


Having to choose between already realized projects from EU funds and none at all out of the EU, I definitely choose the first option. :)

Spike, are you all right tonight? :):)

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


By your changing the topic I can see you know next to nothing about the outcome of Polish membership in the EU. Let it be so. :)

In the starting thread I mentioned only most general pros. How about more detailed ones?
In education, for example.

- renovated school buildings
- new labs and suites with modern equipment
- student exchanges
- Erasmus and Socrates Comenius programmes
- grants for hundreds of programmes, involving both students and teachers

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


You see, if you were less self-centred and more open to others, you would know that some members here talk about themselves as mild nationalists - the ones who don`t want to use violence to achieve their goals. While radical ones - do.

Never mind - let`s stick to gains and losses in Polish EU membership.

Can you provide any? But remember we are talking about facts from the last 15 years, not hypothetical situations which might happen in future.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


:) Not all Poles would agree with you. Today radical nationalists had a Sovereignty March across Warsaw. They claim that Poland must leave the EU and become fully sovereign and develop the country in accordance with traditional values. For them, it was Moscow which once controlled Poland, today it is Brussels. We don`t want Franko-German Empire, we must retain the Polish language and currency.

warszawa.onet.pl/marsz-suwerennosci-pod-haslami-antyunijnymi-przeszedl-ulicami-warszawy/

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


Yes, many. Probably a half, especially those who lose their work because cheaper Polish migrants come and do the job done before by a British worker at twice as expensive rates. The other half are glad because the job done for them and its products cost less than before.

You, as a businessman who employs people, also Poles, will you say you didn`t profit from Polish access?


I haven`t heard of starving children in Western Europe. :) But if you mentioned NHS crisis, then yes - I could agree. :)

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

If you mean crude finances, probably yes, although it is disputable to what extent (Western companies gain a lot from European funds that are allocated in Poland).

But money means nothing compared to promoting economic growth and strengthening democratic forces in countries which once were ruled by dictatorships. The introduction and maintanance of democratic order is invaluable.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


As far as I know, previous governments didn`t object to Ukrainian access to NATO.


If tragedy happens and Poland is ruled by a radical nationalist government, they will certainly withdraw Poland`s support as they still consider Ukrainians as enemies while Russians are OK to them.

tvn24.pl/wiadomosci-z-kraju,3/korwin-mikke-w-tvn24-ukraina-jest-naszym-wrogiem-nie-rosja,585383.html


Certainly there is no general objection to it.

As for your last question how average Poles would feel about the prospect of sending Polish soldiers to protect Ukrainian sovereignty it is impossible to answer it today. Ukrainian membership won`t take place within decades, or at least as long as they have issues with Russia and that is going to last for a long time. Hardly anybody in Poland is thinking about such distant future now, only political experts and visionary politicians, I suppose.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

Yes, I was wondering what Rich had in mind talking about never repaying.

funduszeeuropejskie.gov.pl/en/site/learn-more-about-european-funds/discover-how-the-funds-work/european-funds-in-poland/