News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

well, if anyone would know, it would be her. However we're not talking about mothers here, we're talking about women who are pregnant...unless everyone now refers to pregnant women as mothers. Sorry if I missed out on that one.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Honest self reflection would be nice.

What I've often found is:
-People need to believe they know what's best for everyone else in order to convince themselves they know what's best for themselves.
-People like to say how others should live but do as little as possible to actually live up to their demands for others.
-People who shout about the sins of abortion and the absolute nature of it generally fail to contribute to those in society who are or were closest to the issue- "don't get an abortion and fcuk off after you don't get one cause I ain't got the time or money to help raise your little bastards."

They just can't imagine a world in which an abortion is the more attractive choice to the would be mother. There are people out there who don't have family support, don't have a good job or the prospects of one and like it or not are in a position in life that will see them struggle to ever be anything but living on the edge. Many people here can't imagine a life that is nothing but a struggle because they've never struggled.

There was a case, many years ago, the guy's name is Robert Latimer and he killed his daughter.
Many people argue it was out of compassion- i.e. the most compassionate thing he could do was just end her suffering. Some people, they see nothing but suffering ahead and so they decide it's best stop it before it starts. Who are we to tell them any different if we're not helping them out?

.......anyway, there are some people who walk their talk and they are admirable.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

...so now we're making conclusions based on unsubstantiated assumptions?

Look, I believe that there is a god and everything is a part of god and that much of existence is just beyond our ability to really grasp but I've NOTHING to back this up.So with regards to when one "gets" a soul (or maybe that should be when a soul gets put here?) or what happens to souls etc, etc, etc, what's wrong with simply saying "we don't know?" Because really, we don't know.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

natasia

I agree with you completely.
I am not going to tell you how you should feel regarding your life choices, I was curious as to your reasoning for it. I am not going to comment on your life history and through which lens you choose to reflect on it. I was only interested in how you apportioned blame for said events.

I think we can have this discussion without being so self-referential, I think we can have this discussion without continually vying for suffering points.

The reason that topic came up was because I wanted to know where anti-choice proponents stand on the issue of incarcerating doctors, nurses and women who have had or performed abortions. The reason I asked that was because:

If I chose to view abortion as murder then I would be forced to reason that those people engaging in abortion must be regarded as murderers or accomplices to it.

I only wanted to see if that was the mindset of people who are pro-life/anti-choice (choose which moniker you see fit). I wanted to know their take on that question.

A subsequent question I have is whether or not it is a question of medical staff believing they're killing a person and not caring or, do some of these people see things differently?

I am interested in to what extent anti-choice proponents would seek legislation to ensure that life is being taken care of after birth or, do they not care after that point?

I am interested to what degree anti-choice proponents will choose to hold themselves responsible for another person's child if they would like to force that person to carry the unborn child through to delivery.

Based on the avoidance I've received from these questions I'm left to assume the collective answer is "not very."

Until I receive some specific answers to those and other questions the portrait I am forced to draw of most anti-choice advocates is one of a hypocrite who really doesn't want much to do with the sh*tty families or the poor families or broken families or the kind of people whose mothers were considering an abortion but didn't for whatever reason.

I do not support abortion but I see eliminating the social circumstances that turn abortion into a sought after option as being the most effective path to that goal. A purely legal recourse is not going to work. I cannot say I'm anti-abortion because if I did then I would have to do something to prevent it. Since I am not, I cannot make that claim. I am curious how others can make said claim but sit on their butts and pretend to be objective in their views.

p3undone, whatever dude, in this conversation you're dead to me. You're like that crappy kid in dodge ball that pretended he wasn't hit multiple times while the rest of the class just rolled our eyes at him and just accepted he wasn't worth our time.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I stand corrected.


"freely acknowledged by most in this discussion"
Why I took issue with that statement was not because it's meaning was unclear to me in the least.
The reason I took issue with such form of "proof" is that it isn't proof of anything except of how you interpreted the collective opinions of a group of people discussing an issue on a message board. This wouldn't be the first time many people were wrong about something. So, while you may find solace in a crowd, I am here to let you know that it counts for nothing in terms of actually supporting an opinion.


And I must return the favour: please define what exactly "reasonable doubt" means to you.


First of all WE aren't killing anyone. If someone kills another person we don't all accept responsibility for that so please keep me out of other people's decisions. Secondly, it is NOT up to you or me to decide for another woman how she views her pregnancy (this is where you will run into the most trouble with your argument).

As I mentioned previously, the closer your time line moves towards conception, the more divided opinions become on what is living and what is human.

Do I think the little zygote is human? Well it's not a bear, is it?
Is it a person?
Define what a person is.
Is a brain dead corpse on life support a person?
I think the little zygote is alive, I am convinced it's human but I don't know if it's a person but then again, it's not up to me to make that distinction for others.


What if you're wrong about that too?
The fact of the matter is there are millions of parents throughout the world who simply don't give a damn about their children. You presume too much with your scenario and it betrays your attempts at presenting a reasoned argument. Your lack of experience with people outside your social milieu is evident through such presumptions. You simply haven't met some of the worst society has to offer and don't know what you're talking about when you assume every parent-to-be will love and cherish their children- the world around you shows that to be categorically false. Case closed.

Now, could every parent love their children?
I hope so, but again, making that happen isn't going to be through litigation. That's the lazy way of trying to get that done. This is also a fact.

If you want to force all pregnant women into parenthood then I'm assuming you want to force all the fathers-to-be into assuming their role as well. Do you also want to force society to pay for their children when they can't afford to raise them properly? Do you want to force standards as to what proper raising of a child is? How much do you want to force society to contribute towards poorer parents achieving those standards? Who is to decide these standards? Do you want to force society to take care of these children if the parents prove to be inept?


So if I understand you correctly, the institution allowing an abortion and the doctor performing an abortion are guilty of murder but the woman who decides to have the procedure done to her body and to the human life in her body (YES I AGREE IT'S HUMAN AND HAVE BEEN ADAMANT ABOUT THAT) is not guilty of murder nor is an accomplice to murder in your opinion? What is your reasoning behind that one?


So you made a decision to allow what you think of as murder but don't see that as being an accomplice to murder?
I'm not trying to make you feel bad here, I just really don't see any logical consistency in you.
I am not saying this with an empty hand either. You I have also lost a child and wasn't too far away from losing my wife as well. Ours was killed by incompetent medical staff here in Poland.

We named him, we visited him every day, we played the music for him that he could hear while my wife was still carrying him. We tried to relieve his suffering every day. We saw his eyes light up when we came to visit him (although I must admit despite my constant doting he always gave his mother a bigger reaction). We tried to stimulate him through little touching games and saw the little guy figure out my primitive little tasks and we were completely in love with him. And when he died it absolutely devastated us. There cannot be anything worse to endure than watching your child fighting to live, suffering throughout their life, enduring nothing but pain and irritation in between controlled visits and then watching the life drain from their body.

This says nothing about the nightmare that an ACTUAL MOTHER had to go through in not being able to take care of her child as her body demanded, this says nothing about what that innocent little person had to endure in their tortured life. I got off easy compared to them!

And despite all that, deep down, I know I am responsible for his death as my decisions led us to that hospital at that time. I could have decided on a different hospital, I could have become more involved in my wife's pregnancy, I could have educated myself MUCH MORE- I didn't. He's dead because of my failings.

I've accepted responsibility for this. I am still here, I have to continue....
...now then are you done with your little pity-party, because I for one am sick of it and like other people on this site have had my own trials to endure.

The following is not a personal attack,; it is a call for logical and moral consistency:
I am not prepared to decide how others are to see their pregnancy or in their decision to terminate their pregnancy. However if you are prepared to do that then you better be prepared to accept responsibility for engaging in what you call it.


But you didn't...nice.


Tell me what I've misrepresented.
Show me what you wrote.
Show me my response.
Explain how you feel I misrepresented your reference to "proof" and I will explain why I wrote what I did.
You keep making vague references while using neither the quote function nor anything resembling paragraphs and accepted spacing-what gives man?
This is one of the reasons I suspect you of being intellectually dishonest.
By using the quote function I've been able to illustrate the logical failings in your arguments- it's documented.
You can make all the snide comments you want but aside from that you've offered me precious little to respond to and have yet to effectively deal with any of the 3 points I laid out to you. You have attempted explanations but each time I've shown you where and how your thinking on the matter doesn't hold up and then I get these vague replies with no substance like the one I quoted. I'm not going to start guessing at what you mean. This is a lengthy discussion so as a moderator you of all people should be adhering to the practices that add clarity to it.

I like the approach you used in regards to the "Double Homicide" angle but I feel there is a logical explanation for this that doesn't rely on religion or subjective views of what person-hood is. When one kills a mother-to-be (we don't call either the father-to-be or pregnant woman a parent until after the child is born), we can clearly delineate between the murderer and victim(s) (the "s" is to acknowledge both perspectives). We cannot know the intentions of the victim but we are forced to accept she wanted to see her pregnancy through to motherhood. It's an interesting angle but proves nothing as to what is or isn't a person regarding the development of the unborn.


You're easily one of the most well reasoned posters on this entire message board.
I was a bit annoyed with you and p3undone hypothesizing about deciding whether to let a baby or mother die during delivery but that's because it touched a nerve with me. It's a horrible position to find oneself in and although I think the subject deserves greater discretion, I shouldn't have been so quick to lash out at you for it.

My apologies, I over-reacted.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


well then professor, show us your proof, are you smart enough to do that?


Repeating faulty reasoning has made it clear you have yet to adapt your ideas to the reality around you.


Guiltiness is not a word. However your point on the death penalty stands (imo) if you can define one thing: "a point of debate." What does and doesn't qualify as a point of debate as to someone's guilt, in your opinion of course?

"Freely acknowledged by most in this discussion?" Is that an objective source? When, according to most in this discussion, is it that life officially begins. Do tell.


And should we not err on the side of caution and respect those who feel life doesn't begin at conception and listen to the views of women who had had abortions and later have not regretted it? Why are WE to decide for others when life does or doesn't begin in their bodies? Who the hell on this thread is advocating "entering" abortion lightly? I'm against the practice myself but it is not for me to decide for a woman when the life inside her is human and when it is something else.


(I'm assuming that's not really a question) Then as I've been LOUD AND CLEAR ABOUT: ELIMINATE THE REASONS FOR THAT CHOICE. Making it illegal won't solve the problem, eliminating the reasons for considering that choice will. What can you not understand about that? Seriously?


What if you are wrong NATASIA- just think about that. What if you are wrong?


What if life doesn't begin when you say it does and you are saying it's okay to for women who don't want to become mothers to have children what if you are forcing those children to be born into the hell that will be their world (and don't pretend life is smooth sailing for the children of drug addict mothers or prostitutes or those who simply don't want their children). You're a caring person but you're failing to understand that many women aren't. People see the world around them differently than you, they live different lives and I don't think you know what a hard life really is.


I'm perfectly fine with that BECAUSE what I say is not forcing anyone to or not to make that choice.
People say they aren't "ok" with this or that and continue to do nothing about this or that. Well actions speak louder than words- what have your actions been?

And this is where it falls back on the shoulders of you and those in your "camp." If you are not "ok" with abortion, if you view it as murder and you are not doing all you can do to prevent it then, I'm sorry to inform you, you stand on the same side as I do. If you are doing nothing to eliminate the reasons women have for choosing to have abortions then you're on the same side I am. Are you okay with that?

If a woman has had an abortion, is she then a murderer? Are you "ok" with locking up all these women?
Think about this, if you view it as murder then the doctors and women who have done this are murderers and you CANNOT logically be "ok" with them going unpunished like you'd punish any other murderer.

Leave the choice there.
Eliminate the reasons for making that choice.
Problem solved.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


That's not how proof works though. You see, simply because you've stated something doesn't make it so. I've explained to you why I've responded to your limited replies. Whether or not you accept that is your issue to deal with.


So then I'm passionate about arguing, so what?


You do too much assuming and not enough reasoning.


What question?


Yes, you do have the right to cognitive dissonance. Good luck with that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Oh but it is my good fellow, it certainly is.


I don't think it does at all, but I'm game show me your reasoning!
This does prove at least one thing though, and that is my disdain for your inability to grasp some relatively simple chains of logic....but why do you feel insulted? As you as much stated, it isn't insulting if it's true...so why you mad?


Oh that's just silly. I have stated my agreement with the reasoning you provided on that one issue at least 3 times on at least 2 threads. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if you just need to see it in writing again and again to feed your ego.


If one does nothing to stop something one declares they are passionate about stopping then that forces the rest of us to determine that person has, at best been pretentious in their declarations.


I don't care though. That's the difference here- you're appealing to an audience you hope is there while I don't have to.


Well that's another thing to add to the list of things you've been wrong about, isn't it?


^...ah-ha so it's you who's angry...okay then, I understand...why don't you give it some time and think it over and come back with something more well reasoned? If you need some questions to help you along let me know.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


That is illegitimate reasoning
It perhaps, makes sense to you but I assure you, you've made no sense at all.
Let's begin with the cotter pin.
"I am passionate about preserving (or saving) life."
That's what you wrote. Do you see the consequence of stating that for the record? When that is proven to be untrue then the contraption of an argument you've tried to construct simply falls apart.

You see, I'm passionate about sport and active living- I volunteered my morning to help others with their training.
I didn't say I'm passionate about preventing theft, if I was then I'd be doing something to actively prevent it.
I am pretty honest in my dealing with people so for that I get a gold star. If I said preventing the murder of unborn children mattered a great deal to me and I did nothing to prevent it well then we'd have a discrepancy between words and actions.


It seems all you do is talk about something you claim to be passionate about- it means you're all talk, no action and no passion.

It means you're full of sh*t.
And the cotter pin has been pulled.


Who are you writing to? Unless you've got legions of fans, it'd be best if you got over your ego there buddy boy.

I didn't flip flop (your use of such euphemisms further confirms my assessment of you). I agreed with your point and have been completely open about it. You made a good point in that regard and this only shows I do acknowledge reasoned arguments. Grown ups do that when they see someone has made a good point and they can concede ideas and reason without damaging their ego.


I've written this numerous times: Believe what you want, say what you want but don't protest when you're shown the inconsistency of your thoughts, words and actions.


Gee, thanks for the permission but I already gave myself permission to do just that.


I'll bet that's probably the best you could word that....sad. I'm not stopping you from doing anything, you seem to be terribly confused on this matter but that's your problem. I can chime in if I want to because that's what this board is for.

Sorry if it hurts.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I was busy.


...whoa there fella, you've got yourself all worked up and all for not. I'm not the one who claims to be passionate about the cause but you do- hence my earlier questions.

But really, why reformulate my earlier questions in attempts to turn them on me when you haven't answered the original ones in the first place?

Why would you try and adopt the same questions when you had described the process as "weak" (without any justification mind you) in the first place?

You're not up to this and it shows.
There is no burden on me. You would like to decide for others when life begins. Well when is that and how do you know?

Why choose to ignore the causes of abortion?
Why the inconsistency with what you say you're all about and the inactivity?
Why am I wasting any more time on you?

Food / Goose meat anyone in Poland? [20]

Babcia always has some goose meat for us every so often.
Goose fricassee- tasty stuff.
Rip geese.

Life / I hate Warsaw. The worst part about living here is the people who move here from small towns, villages.. [124]

The description of Warsaw in the first post seems is GOLD!
Honestly though, it's kind of just a concentrated description of a good chunk of Poland and Poles in general...on some days:/

Pip, if you give someone the finger with your child in the car, you can be offended when that same someone swears at you later but your taking offense does seem to be rather unjustified. Keep being yourself.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Is this your way of begging for the last word?


That is desperation imo.


It doesn't matter how you describe it. Think about why women have abortions. Think of all the reasons they have or say they have. Now wouldn't it be a lot better to address those issues instead? Get rid of the reasons and you get rid of the practice. Changing the legality of it is not the solution in this day and age.


I'm not looking for such proof but that's not my burden. If a woman wants to have an abortion and you want to stop her then that's your burden. The rest of you post is you trying and failingly miserably to be clever because I'm not advocating abortion.

Talk is cheap- despite all the talk I've heard from you, it still wouldn't be enough to buy a coffee. Have the last word and see if you can come up with enough change to buy one.

Ciao

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Really? Are we really going there?
Whether or not I respond to your thoughts doesn't make them coherent. When you manage to e-mumble something and I reply with a "What!?" that doesn't validate anything you've written as more than it is. Capiche?


Are you really asking that? Would your opinion change if the mighty science came in and told you differently than you want to believe? Science "can say" whatever it wants but that's not going to change the biological relationship between unborn and bearer. It's like you're incapable of admitting there's this area of life you have no frame of reference for and never will. We, as men can feel our unborn babies grow in our partners, we can talk to them and feel them kick and we can fall in love with them but it kind of ends there. You've got no business trying to tell a pregnant woman what she can or can't do. If she decides that this baby isn't alive and she doesn't want to be pregnant then whether it's legal or not, whether you give it the ok or not, she'll do what she thinks is best.


What's not a scientific fact? Seriously dude, in your quest for a semantic coup, give special attention to the word unique; I included it for a reason and it wasn't for dramatic effect.

Scientific fact? If our current understanding of science is to be the judge then I would not want to be arguing from your position. However, that being said, if this debate were so easily settled by science then we wouldn't be having this discussion.


That is not the point of the matter; the challenge you have is in defining the point at which something becomes a new life.


The problem is you have made no points in anything but in exceptional circumstances.
You made an astute observation in a legal inconsistency (look to the law as what defines morality and may god have mercy on your soul) and one oddity in terms of the double homicide but apart from those, you've actually made no points. You've argued your opinion and good for you for having one but that is it. I've consistently shot down what I see as flawed reasoning and that's it.

Now, I don't actually care if someone thinks I'm on one side or the other, anyone who isn't in the trenches (going to orphanages, going to boys' and girls' centres, joining the Big Brothers/Sisters Groups) is basically all talk and no action and standing on the sidelines just like I am.


And as I mentioned if you're just trying to force a woman to give birth so that you can feel better about yourself but not help her with those children after that then you've got some questions to ask yourself.

If you're offering support to these women and trying to foster a community that will allow them to raise children that move towards their potential then good on ya and we should admire and emulate you.

But if that ain't you then why are you pretending you care?
Based on your responses to similar questions, it really seems like you're on the sidelines but won't admit it.
But hey, I could be wrong. I hope I am.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]



I can understand your opinion but your opinion isn't fact. I'm sorry to break this to you but the biology of situation seems to differ from what you would think. That is the unique and special relationship women can have with the unborn. Is the unborn her body or not? It isn't for anyone else to say but the mother and father. Please stop wasting effort on this because that's just how it is.


I don't even know what it is you're trying to ask me here.


That's ironic coming from someone who can't keep his own thoughts coherent in the same text....moving along....


Whatever dude, I'm not doing that and you know it.
I'm telling you, the idea of you trying to enforce your morality on this particular issue doesn't add up.
You don't know when life begins, you don't know how the mother to be feels about what's in her body and you don't want to help out in raising the child she may not want. So you wanting to tell women what they can and can't do in this unique instance in life is just stupid, mind-bogglingly stupid.


If I was against abortion, I'd be doing something to make it easier for those mothers-to-be who are having very serious doubts.
If you're not doing anything to make choosing life easier for expecting mothers who are considering terminating their pregnancies then you're on the same side I am.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


No.


No it isn't.
It's not in your body therefore not your decision. What can't you understand about that?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


The idea's been around long before me, let's not pretend here.


Again you raise a great point. But you're preaching to the choir to some degree here; I agree an unborn is a life but while it's in her body then it's her choice as to how she sees it. It's a unique relationship and we must respect it's not for us to say what's what.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Notice the two are inseparable, because of that biological feature, it is, in fact, her decision. How you can fail to recognize that is a mystery.


Well you're not doing anything either so that brings you to 0/2.


No, you're not. No one is talking about killing newborns, that brings you to 0/3


No, I'm not. No one is defending the rights of mothers to kill newborns. That brings you to 0/4
And I'm not bitter, I'm simply amazed you're so convinced of yourself even when you're logic is proven faulty and your statements false. That takes you to 0/5.

You need to reflect more on your own thoughts. Good luck.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


yes it is and whether you admit or fail to it still is her body. It's in her, it's entrusted to her. You're trying to force your morality on other people, accept that others see things differently I.E. FIND A DIFFERENT FRONT TO ARGUE FROM BECAUSE THAT ONE IS A BUST.

If it were a debate you'd have lost on failing to follow logical obligations. I'm sorry you can't recognize that but it's a disservice to your cause regardless that fact.


I'm not arguing if it's right, not at all. I'm saying if you're really going to take the angle of arguing you're protecting life, then you've got to have a lifestyle and track record of doing that... if you're not doing that then how committed to your cause are you really? Think about the killing and hurting and hurting and more hurting going on in the world today, if you turn a blind eye to it, pretend you don't REALLY know it's happening or accept you can't do anything about it then you're not ready to be pushing your "moral" outlook on anyone.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Before you ask us to be honest with each other, perhaps it's better everyone be honest with themselves.


Well there are people killing others right now that I know about, you know about it yet here we sit.
I know militaries are terrorizing and murdering people throughout the world in the name of freedom, allah and whatever else they say it's for and I'm not stopping them. There are an innumerable business decisions which are resulting in the killing, poisoning and starvation of people all over the planet. I know about these things yet I'm not stopping them from happening. You know about them but you either pretend you don't or do nothing as well. So ask yourself the same question.

But it seems as though you're passing over a key difference which I pointed out a number of times. It's in the bit you quoted and it's not what you decided to put in bold.


Her body, her choice, NOT YOURS. I don't know how much more clear I can be on this.
Secondly, you are not going to be there to care for the children you would force potential mothers to have so ask yourself how much you really care yourself.

Everyone wants to be right and no one is willing to admit their own human fallibility on the topic. We are all wrong about many things every day, yet some of you think you know what's best for every one else and would force them to live like you if you could.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I know what you wanted to say, it wasn't a "gotcha" it was just my way of telling you that you should write that bit differently because the way it was phrased didn't help your case. That's it. You're welcome.


First of all, you didn't answer the question.
Secondly, your view of the world is not necessarily accurate nor is it the point. The point is whether you should be able to "try" and enforce no abortions/children on other people (enter the shady world of illegal clinics and sketchy doctors). I'm saying that it's a misguided way to reach the place you wish society was at. You have to accept that a woman who is pregnant should be able to choose how to view her child (Yes I believe it's alive too) because at that stage in nature it's biologically her choice.

If it was really society's choice then that woman would never have to think about abortion as an option. If you can prove abortion was the cause of the decline of society then I'm all ears but it seems more like it's a terrible consequence of a greater sickness.

When people start thinking differently in big ways then this won't be a discussion. Until then you're not going to be able to legislate beliefs and, yes, I agree with those beliefs.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Dude, it's not a right you've given anyone so it's not for you to dole out consequences to anyone one way or the other. The way you phrased it makes it sound like you've decided raising a child is penalty.


And do you honestly think irresponsible people make good parents?



Neither of you two have any idea what you're talking about, if you did it would mean you've had to make that call. If you've had to make that call then you'd feel like life sh*t-kicked you either way. When you lose a child, that child is dead and having more children doesn't "make up" for it.

Based on the abortion practices of the Chinese, I'd say that's about the last cultural reference I'd be making in this thread.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


C-H-I-L-L O-U-T
I didn't accuse you of doing so. Relax
I am not saying everything is pleasant, I know life can tear pieces from you that don't grow back but don't confuse that or repulsive medical procedures with being anything but a part the nature we have created around us. Nature is everything. Full stop.


Don't think you can come at from that angle because I'm a man. This has nothing to do with my willingness or ability to undergo such an experience. This has only to do with whether I think it should be someone's right to choose to undergo such an experience if they decide it's in their best interest. This does not even have to do with whether I, as a man, think they are wrong or right in that decision. It is simply about what I feel is their right to choose. As p3 illustrated, there are good reasons in some instances to deny one person that right but in what he wrote there was something of these things called reason and logic.


Whoa, what was that about platitudes?
Not about orphanages, eh? So I take it you answered no you're not willing to take on the responsibility of helping to raise a child you'd force a woman to have?

Now suddenly you're the cross bearer for women's respect? Why not respect other women disagreeing with you on the issue?


How is that relevant to today? I'm not being a jerk here, I honestly don't see the connection you think you see.


I don't see what this has to do with what I've written.


So what I'm saying is that because we as men don't have to, by nature, take on any extra anything once our boys are swimming, we have to accept a woman's decision to make such a choice unless it's our child and we want the little gaffer safe and sound in our arms. It it's not my child and it's not my body then I've no business interfering in someone's choice no matter how much of a mistake I think it is.


I completely agree with you but UNTIL people are actually willing/demanding that AND MORE then it's her right to make that choice. No matter how awful I find it, if I'm not willing to care for that child then I have to stay out of her decision. How often do you go out of your way to help care for children whose mother's couldn't or wouldn't care for them?


Are you writing empty platitudes now as a joke?


Then we are going to be eternally at odds. How can you speak for so many other women who refute exactly what they are saying about their very own bodies? How can you pretend to think you know what's best for all other women when so many millions of them say you're wrong? How do you know their rights better than they do? Who do you think you are?


I agree with you but you're arguing exceptional circumstances and not what has proven to be the norm. The norm is that men usually don't care enough about their own children but pretend to be all offended by what other women do with their bodies. The norm is that good families pretend to be unified against this horrible practice but keep their distance from the riffraff of society? The norm is that the state isn't there to lend a helping hand on behalf of the taxpayers. The taxpayers aren't demanding more money goes from their wallets to the government so that should clue you in to the fact that people don't care as much as they say they do.


I'm not willing to tell another person what to do in such an important event in so many people's lives base on a bet I'm willing to make.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


First off, could you please at least separate your sentences with a space if you won't use paragraphs?
Secondly, okay, if we couple that with your earlier point about the father having a legal obligation to the welfare of the child then I see what you're saying and am inclined to agree with you.


It's not up to you.
Ask yourself these questions:
Are you gonna be there when that baby needs someone to change its diaper? When it needs someone to hold it? When it needs to cry for what seems like an eternity? If it gets sick, are you gonna be there in the hospital as much as you can?

If the answer is no, then maybe that's why it isn't your decision.

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A misinterpretation sir.


While not breaking any new ground with this, I can see you're working towards a conclusion to this...so please continue towards one, it's getting interesting.


Good point.


You don't see hypocrisy in telling others how to live while rejecting their voice?
You don't see the hypocrisy in telling another person what to do with their body if they don't want a baby in that body?

I agree with you that they shouldn't have run that risk but it's still their body and if they're really determined not to have a child, they'll find a way to kill it. But what would you propose- making sex illegal if intentions weren't pure by your standards?

Making murder illegal hasn't prevented it from happening and making abortion illegal hasn't stopped that either. At least with it legalized you won't have some idiots drying to drink and smoke it to death only to cause severe brain damage to their children.

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Why should we? We don't carry the baby and if we didn't want our sperm in there then we shouldn't have put it there.


It's her choice and certainly not ours. We may not like it but that's reality, that's nature.


You'll forgive me if I'm wrong as it's a bit unclear what you were trying to communicate:
I am not telling anyone what they can or can't say and am a bit annoyed you chose to interpret what I've written in that way. Say what you like but be honest with yourselves and most of all be consistent. If you would like to tell others what they can or can't do with their bodies or children then your a$$es better be ready to take responsibility for that child when a woman who doesn't want to carry it, is forced to do so. If you would like to tell a woman she HAS TO have a baby and also not want anything to do with ensuring that child is raised and cared for in a way YOU would want for your own children then that seems a lot like cognitive dissonance.


Well that's where this gets interesting, isn't it? When is it her body and when isn't it? Is it her womb? Is it her blood? Is it her life? Is it her choice?

You see I am not an abortion proponent.
I have simply noticed the logical inconsistencies from the anti-abortion crowd. These are the preaching one minute and condemning the next types of people who demand no abortions yet won't hesitate to turn their backs on these children when they're in orphanages or raised by mothers who decided they weren't up to task. They want the harshest of penalties for street criminals yet see no correlation between unwanted pregnancies and subsequent problems in the following generations becoming criminals. They seem incapable of imagining anyone having lived a different life and have different life circumstances but their own. They use empty phrases like "it's unnatural" and then try to play the philosopher in the next breath.

I can be against abortion yet also note hypocrisy and empty platitudes coming from either side of the gallery.

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not necessarily true at all.


I think that's really inferring a lot on another person's behalf i.e. putting words in their mouth.

From what I've read of Gabi's posts, she seems very level headed and well-reasoned in how she's presented her opinions.


I repeat my question for all of you who would tell another person what they can or can't do with their body: How much responsibility are you willing to personally take in the raising of a child which the mother did not want to have? How many of you people pay frequent visits to the local orphanage?


We have a "say" when we agree to have sex with a woman. People don't give that as much weight as they should imo.

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My first thought is that right and wrong are a construct of the nature of our circumstances (macro or micro and simultaneously too) but I'll have to mull it over more before I can come up with anything that could be construed as a contribution to the discussion.

For the sake of curiosity, could you flesh out your extrapolation a bit more (everything being natural = right and wrong are nonexistent)?

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Define "natural causes."


Why do you think so?


I care what you believe because if you changed the way you thought then there'd be just that much more reason and balance in this world. I think this is very relevant to the conversation as people seem to tout the "It's UN-NAT-UR-AL (in a shrill voice)" as some kind of tenant we should accommodate- it's empty and in that sense a non-sequitur to this conversation, just like your last question.

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I will attempt to illustrate to you the contradictory nature of the following statement: we are part of nature, our actions, not always.

Nature, what does it include?
Trees and forests and all that pretty stuff? Volcanoes and acidic lakes? A bird's nest, a beaver damn, a room with a view? Does it include the vastness of space?

Where do you draw the line on what is or isn't natural?
I am confident there is not one person who can adequately do so because if it can exist or if it can happen then it is natural.

We live on this earth, we exist in this universe and anything that happens does so because of an action and consequence series- that's nature, that's science, that's the nature of things, that's a fact.


In vitro? Breeding animals for specific features? Engineered pollination? Interspecies copulation? Spore germination? Pathogenic reproduction? This list can grow and grow exponentially greater than your ability to classify what is natural reproduction unless you consider all reproduction to be natural.


What's natural death?
Is a miscarriage natural? Do the circumstances in a miscarriage matter in defining something as natural or unnatural?


That and a nickel will buy you five pennies.


It does, it really does. It's uncomfortable for a lot of people to accept this but it's true. We may not always like what nature has for us, we may even hate it but there's not a damn thing you can do about it. We're on this blue-green-brown rock in this part of our galaxy in a universe which may be expanding, contracting or something else but if it can happen then it is natural. Accept it and begin your journey.