News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Poland won? The general opinion is that Poland is about to lose heavily in the EU budget negotiations, and I can guarantee that the other V4 countries will turn a blind eye to Poland having problems in the negotiations if it means that they'll get a bigger piece of the pie. Poland has also pretty much lost all influence in the EU, so if that's a 'win', well...

You can talk about Poland being 'independent', but the huge figures in support of the EU tell you the real story.


The question on my lips is whether PiS can really resist it in the long run. The Americans are devious bastards to say the least, and it wouldn't shock me if they tied the presence of American troops in Poland to the return of property. He might be saying no now, but if the Americans start playing hardball and tying Article 5 to property restitution, then we'll see how much they can resist. The Israeli lobby in Washington right now is ridiculously strong, and Trump clearly does what they expect him to do.


Likewise. It's a total non issue, I don't remember the topic ever coming up in normal conversation. People don't care except a few unemployed fools.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

And it shows. Anders didn't need stupid propaganda cults, for a start.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Don't worry, we all know that you always attack others. You're the one claiming to be Polish, so it's your time to prove it.

Of course, we all know that the closest you've ever been to Poland is the map on your basement wall.

By the way, if you had half a brain, you'd know that it's a good idea to have a cover story. 18 hours a week work in a school leaves 20-30 hours a week for more profitable activities of which you know nothing. Property restitution is big business these days, don't you know.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Bieganski in particular has a huge complex. He's Canadian, with only a very distant link to Poland (his inability to post a single message in Polish on this forum rather gives the game away), and he's got a never-ending obsession with Jewish people in Poland, probably because he's jealous of the fact that they a) are successful and b) speak Polish, neither of which he is.

As you and I both know, the Jewish community is Polish too, and they are valued Polish citizens.


Quite sensible. The ideals of Piłsudski were that everyone could be what they were, with a common cause linking them - Poland. The idea of separate armies would be completely against those ideals, as everyone was supposed to work together to build a multicultural Poland, open to all. Anders was also a far more enlightened man than that idiot Rydz-Śmigły.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Largely irrelevant, as the Jewish nation is one and indivisible.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Some of us are actively involved in returning properties rightfully owned by my kin, you know. It's such a pleasure watching the goyim's face after they realise that their cheap apartments are no more and that they have to pay market rates from now on.

It has been a rather profitable endeavour for many.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


When will you finally learn that this is money rightfully owed to my kin, and we will get it no matter what Canadian teenagers have to say about the matter?


Could just be that Germany doesn't want to get involved, nothing more. There's nothing to gain from them getting involved, and they can only lose - if they take Poland's side, the outrage from Israel would be tremendous - and if they take Israel's side, PiS will use it against Germany for domestic purposes. Best in this case to simply have no opinion on the matter, I think.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

WP - another link for you - tvn24.pl/anna-maria-anders-i-ian-brzezinski-o-ustawie-o-ipn-mamy-problem,813861,s.html - I know you'd appreciate a non-TVN24 link, but it's worth reading.

Reading between the lines, it looks like the Americans expect this law to be trashed or else. I can't say I like such threats...

Study / British School of Warsaw in Wilanow [73]


It makes sense. Liberals tend to have vocations in life, while conservatives only think about themselves. If it wasn't for liberal minded people, public society would collapse overnight.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


We'll feel historically and collectively responsible when Poles do the same.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


That might actually be an explanation - there was no action regarding the law for months, then the American Senate passed that S.447. It would explain why PiS were digging in over the law in the face of huge pressure, because they knew fine well that they needed a defence against it. Clearly Daniels knew nothing about it, too. It might also explain why the opposition chose to stay more or less silent.

I think we can agree that paying cash would be a massive vote loser in Poland for any party, right?

From what I can see, it makes perfect sense that PiS would have regarded Daniels as a very useful link to Trump, and the cosy relations with Israel were obviously part of that. But then the American Senate pushed through that S.447 mess, and PiS reacted pre-emptively against it. It seems quite plausible that PiS were frightened that the Americans would demand a ridiculous amount of cash, so they wanted something to protect themselves with.


He's in way over his head on this one, and he's been forced to publicly apologise to Jaki for spreading misinformation too. I suspect he'll vanish from the public eye sooner rather than later, just like you say. I wouldn't be shocked to see him turn up in somewhere like Croatia in a few months.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


But what would be in it for PiS in this case? That's what I can't figure out - they've got nothing to gain domestically by handing over cash.

Absolutely agreed on the question of who sent him and what his mission is. He didn't come here on his own accord, that's for sure.

This might shed some light on it - talkradio.co.uk/news/israels-trump-supporters-faced-hellish-abuse-its-all-worth-it-1611166732
- and especially this - jewishtelegraph.com/prof_364.html

It looks like he's been interestingly close to the hard right of the Republicans for a long time. No wonder the nationalists are concerned - having a British-Israeli Jewish guy with deep connections to the US and Trump at the very heart of the Polish government is going to raise eyebrows.

Someone really needs to do proper research on this guy. I don't believe most of what he says.


Couldn't agree more. The more I looked, the more questions I have about him. It's particularly weird that there's no trace of his father, despite him supposedly being a business broker, whatever that means.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


It's a very plausible one. It's clear that Daniels was shocked by the resolve of Morawiecki and Duda here, because his Twitter started suddenly being a lot more sympathetic towards the Polish view of things once it was clear that they weren't going to back down. But...what is he doing here? Why would PiS even let him into their inner circles? What does he offer them?

Bear with me on this one, but I'd like to see if you agree with this:

Daniels was sent to Poland when it became clear that PiS were heading for electoral victory at some point. He turned up in 2014 (coincidentally, when Tusk left and PO weakened), with the task of getting into the inner circle of PiS - and to act as a go-between PiS and the US/Israel. The Americans knew they couldn't get an American to do the job because it wouldn't be plausible, but Daniels operating a foundation and pulling off high profile PR stunts relating to Jewish issues gave him the perfect cover.

So - why would PiS entertain him? Well, as a go-between, he was there to make it clear that America wanted to put a stop to the Polish-German-Franco axis and return Poland to the pre-2007 situation where Poland was much more orientated towards the US. In return, the Americans would turn a blind eye to the activities of PiS domestically as long as they were on good terms with the Israelis too. America would also use their massive soft power to keep Poland away from the EU, which is safe enough given Poland's hostility towards Russia. It suits the Americans (the EU has been increasingly an issue for them, especially the Euro as a reserve currency), and suits PiS perfectly.

It makes sense to me - the Americans have never particularly cared about the model of government as long as the country was allied to them, and it would suit them perfectly for Poland to distance herself from Germany, which also suited PiS domestically.

Of course, the question is this new law. It seems that Daniels was caught off guard by it, which makes me wonder if it wasn't Kaczyński asserting himself and making it clear that such cooperation had its limits, especially once it was becoming publicly obvious that Morawiecki was way too close with Daniels and Israeli interests for comfort. It would be a smart move by PiS to remind Daniels that they weren't going to bow down to anyone, and the reaction by Israel is because they were assured by Daniels that PiS would be on 'their side' (especially after abstaining in that UN vote recently).

Thoughts?

News / Ryszard Czarnecki - Poland's politician and Member of the European Parliament [30]

He wasn't punished, he was merely sacked as a Vice President of the European Parliament.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

WP - an article from naTemat that's worth reading about our old friend. Even they (if I understand correctly) are openly suggesting that something isn't adding up about his whole story. It seems that suspicion and dislike of him is actually uniting left and right in Poland...

natemat.pl/229203,kim-jest-jonny-daniels

The article and comments here are quite telling:
wprawo.pl/2018/02/03/jonny-daniels-atakuje-rafala-ziemkiewicza-apel-o-wznowienie-ekshumacji-jedwabnem

I want to know why Daniels is proclaiming himself to be Polish as well, and why he's so keen to avoid mentioning in the Polish press that he was born British and brought up British.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


One can only question why you fail to address the issue of your ancestors not returning to Poland to help in the time of her greatest need.

I'm sorry that you aren't old enough to participate in the democratic process.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


At least they were in Poland, unlike your ancestors.

Certainly building a democratic Israel was a far better choice than staying in Stalinist Poland.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


I've just caught up on today's news, and it's hard to disagree with you on this. I don't see what else PiS can do right now - the damage has been done, the media is having a field day bringing up stories of how some Poles did bad things during the war, so...what else can they do but pass the law and hope that it passes over?

Speaking of which, our favourite British-Israeli is still not supporting the Polish government on this one, and even appears to be taking the Israeli line - twitter.com/MrJonnyDaniels/status/958976375632924673 - look at his response about how the Israelis (according to him) didn't see the bill before it was published. PiS are saying that Patryk Jaki was responsible for discussing it with them, so someone is clearly lying.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


And risk a significant cooling of Polish-American relations at a time when Poland is lacking in international allies? Be careful for what you wish for.


Who are you referring to?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


I thought that to begin with, but surely someone would have pointed out that the Israeli reaction would be so overwhelming in return?


Doesn't matter how weak you are if you've got a very powerful friend to help.

Either way, this is a mess that PiS really need to get themselves out of one way or another.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Do you think it would be a deal-breaker for PiS supporters, though? The nationalists will be outraged (when are they not? :P), but do you think that ordinary PiS supporters would be that worried about a veto in the face of Israeli/American pressure?

I actually can't tell which is the better option at this point. Israel is mad, the Americans are now pissed off, and the massive influence that Israel has over the Republicans shouldn't be understated.

BTW, another article here: kansascity.com/opinion/readers-opinion/guest-commentary/article197734484.html

At this point, it really looks like PiS have accidentally opened a conversation that they didn't want to start.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


They're supposed to vote tonight, but they're on a break till 1.30 apparently. Probably they'll just get Duda to veto it quickly to calm things down, though.

washingtonpost.com/world/europe/polish-senate-debates-holocaust-bill-that-has-angered-israel/2018/01/31/c453c73a-06c8-11e8-aa61-f3391373867e_story.html

The veto is almost certain, I'd say. It's the easiest way to save face now - the Americans are involved, and the anger from Israel will only get worse if the law isn't vetoed.

The strange thing that I can't understand - the law was supposed to be on ice while a joint Polish-Israeli commission would sort things out.

History / What are Polish opinions regarding Felix Dzerzhinsky? [17]


They may have done, but in Communist Poland, he was treated like some sort of mythical figure. That pretty much guarantees hatred towards him, though I can say that not many people accept him as being Polish.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


If there's one good thing about this, it's that people have started to wake up to him. I agree with you completely that he's taking the Israeli side here, though people are clearly calling him out on his crap.

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]


What makes me laugh so much is knowing how powerless you are. All you can do is seethe, while I have free reign to teach children what I wish. I particularly enjoy teaching children to be tolerant towards others, because it infuriates basement conservatives like you so much.


My, that's one big delusion that you're suffering from there. The more likely scenario is that Poland, with her absence of domestic industry and absence of domestic companies on the world scale, will be told what to do and Poland will do it. Rather like now, in fact. Some of us quite enjoy enlightening students as to the pathetically weak geopolitical power of Poland, too.

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]


You seem obsessed. Fortunately, you don't make Polish law, nor do you have a say in it, being a Canadian with no connection to Poland.


No court is ever going to extradite someone to Poland based on "he said she said". Many European courts have already thrown out Polish extradition cases in the past based on unreliable evidence, and the same will happen here.

News / Poland in the European Union. Polexit? [559]


Hungary has 9% these days, and 40% tax allowance on interest payable on loans taken by small companies. It's actually also possible to get a tax saving of 110% if you make certain investments in sport, which is...well, I wish we had the same!

VAT is a bastard though at 27%.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]


Your scorn is well justified, I think. He's made some very mild criticism, but as you say, he's completely failed to stand up for the government on this one despite sucking up to the government so much.

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]


Not at all, because as we can see, Poland is already furiously backtracking after even the Americans got involved. It's laughable.

Still, may I remind you that Holocaust denial remains an offence in Poland.

History / Good fences make good neighbors. [13]


I'd start by building very close relationships with neighbours, making sure not to get involved with petty quarrels. Poland might not see eye to eye with Ukraine in terms of historical politics, but that should be thrown out of the window in favour of a deep military alliance to begin with. Then I'd seek to get the Baltic States onboard by offering them some air policing assistance - I'd be looking at getting something to replace the MiG-29's and then relocating them to the Baltic States as they have no capability of their own. Or perhaps the Americans could be persuaded to supply some low cost planes to do the same job.

Then I'd be pouring my attention into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, trying to find common ground on shared forces and so on. The idea would be to go deeper than NATO with these countries, so that each country could contribute what they can to a common army. With the neighbours on board, then serious discussions could start with the UK over deep integration with British forces, so that there would be a heavy British presence in (cheaper) Poland.

That makes a viable defence bloc, and allows partner-to-partner discussions with Germany on joining the defence bloc or simply working as part of NATO. However, even if Germany doesn't join in, Poland would still have considerable forces to work with on common defence.

I'd also, as a priority, place emphasis on the military being run by the military and not by civilians in the MON. The role of the MON would be limited to strategic things such as the number of troops and the overall budget provided, as well as negotiating the terms of defence partnerships. Decisions over promotions, unit structures, weapons, etc would all be in the hands of non-partisan military commanders who were expected to stay well away from politics.