News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Thank you.


I imagine their argument is that it is an artificial leg-up - an intervention - and they are against any intervention, as God is to make the choices. That isn't my position. I think anything we can do to help anything or anyone is cool, but that we have to be incredibly careful how we use that power ... ie, not to use it to threaten or destroy (fragile) life. We have to be very wise.

I am just a simple C. of E. girl, enjoying the legacy of Henry VIII ; ) ... I am not in any way Catholic, although I have to say that over the past few years, I have come to my own conclusions about certain things, and have some admiration for the Catholic Church in the way it will stand up for its rights, and convictions. I think abortion is ultimately a very wrong thing, and I know that the Church of England is so liberal and nice that it wouldn't condemn it, but that the Catholic Church, with its fire and brimstone, would. There is something to be said for that backbone.

But they have to carry through with their logic - so if meddling to remove pregnancies is wrong, then meddling to create them is also wrong.

Not being a Catholic, I have the benefit of being able to be more flexible ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I think that what the RCC is saying is that we should give life the chance to be created, and that if it manages to make it, we should cherish it.

To be honest, as a woman in a close relationship, I know damn well that we can make a child if we choose, and not if we don't choose. I am not fertile 30 days of the month ... we know automatically when we have the potential ... and if we don't want a baby, we control ourselves. That is the same for everyone. Being in touch with oneself is the way, and the RCC is I guess just saying that they have to support procreation, but they know that in reality, there is flexibility if we are only a little careful and mondre.

No?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Absolutely, but what concerns me is not the obvious coercion in to abortion that happens in some cases (the 'usun to, kurwa' school of support), but rather what we have in the UK, which is a not-so-subtle leaning in favour of abortion in a lot of cases of unmarried, younger women and pregnancy. Abortion, if the 'time isn't right', is suggested as the sensible alternative. If a young or unmarried woman goes to the doctor and says she finds herself unexpectedly pregnant, the doctor will say 'Have you decided whether or not to keep the baby?' ... which seems to me to be a question which immediately undermines the pregnancy and suggests that it is a decision still to be made.

I completely sympathise with those in a situation where it would be dangerous or involve awful hardship to have a child, such as when the pregnancy is as a result of rape, but I don't believe that just because you hadn't planned to have a child now, and would have to make changes in your life such as moving home or having less disposable income or being embarrassed to be an unmarried mother, are sufficient justification for terminating a pregnancy.

I suppose what I am saying is: abortion should be considered only in situations where to continue with the pregnancy would result in severe mental and/or physical damage to the mother - i.e., only in extreme situations. And what do you know, but the wording of the 1967 UK Abortion Act calls for two doctors to verify independently that this is an extreme case, and only allows legal abortion on the following grounds:

a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

(b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or

(d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

Which is not how it is applied. So if Poland wants to make sure things are under better control, then that is good, surely?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


wow no why should I be? It is assisted fertilisation - what is wrong with that? Fusion in utero, in vitro, wherever - still the joy of new life.

And for all those who will now say 'but you said unnatural is bad' - yes, it is bad when it means destroying life and undermining the integrity of the mother, but when it is to promote life and health, then good. Unnatural in itself isn't bad - just depends what the motivation/effects are of intervention.


No, you are misunderstanding me. I said that to use medication and/or surgery to remove an otherwise healthy, stable pregnancy was an unnatural act - perhaps more precise if I rephrase: an artificial intervention, designed to interrupt a natural process.

I agree that intervention to prevent disease or death is also artificial, but it is for good purpose. The debate here is how termination of a pregnancy, although physically possible, is for bad purpose. And my additional point was that in the act of interrupting this natural process of pregnancy, you leave the mother with anything up to severe problems in dealing with the shock.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


These women were giving their permission for something unnatural to be done to their bodies and unborn children, yes. Of course yes.

This whole discussion reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes to me. So much talk about labelling, about what a just-conceived child is or isn't, but the feeling as a person who goes through the process of abortion is quite simply that you have allowed someone to kill something. Very very simple, very stark, and very shocking. And before one has an abortion, there is a lot of talk about how the baby isn't a baby yet, etc etc, but that is all ... bollocks.

A sperm isn't a human life. An ovule isn't. But when they fuse, they suddenly become a life. From the very second they fuse, because from that moment the person is created.

If you have a tiny sapling in your garden, it is a fxxk of a lot easier to dig up and burn than a huge oak tree, but just because it's easier to do, does that make it OK? Do we say that because in the first few weeks of growth, a human life is tiny and easy enough to get rid of, that it is therefore OK to do that? This discussion is split between those who say yes, and those who stick their necks out and say no, even though it is easy to do, we should not allow ourselves to do this - we should not allow ourselves to dispose of human life in this way.

And actually, at 12 weeks, when abortions are frequently carried out, the heart has been beating for several weeks, the baby or whatever you want to call him or her is a boy or a girl, has features, fingers and toes, fingernails and toenails, can feel touch, has other senses, and is a miniature person, 5.4 cm long only, but a little person, folded within his or her mother, for protection. The extraordinary explosion of life, the swiftness with which two cells become millions, is such a force that by 3 months, an unbelievable development has taken place. And by 20 weeks, the baby is perfectly formed.

So you can pinpoint a moment when life begins: the moment of fusion of sperm and egg, when they cease to be ingredients, and become someone.

But you know, the development of the unborn child isn't really the question - the issue is one of protection, and responsibility. The unborn child, as has been said, cannot scream or shout or protect itself - only the mother can do that. And if the mother's natural sense to protect is undermined and compromised by encouragement to 'abort', then hell is come again, really.

And still nobody seems interested in the effects on the mother. The grief of not having seen your child's face ever is far worse that the grief of losing someone whose face you know - because at least in that situation, you have the comfort of memory, and of the knowledge that you were able to show that person your love.

If an institution such as the Catholic Church, or the Polish government, want to make abortion a big issue and advise against it, or even legislate against it, then all strength to them. It is this talk that a human life is not a life, which is the most damaging and perfidious. It is a life, but it is easy to get rid of. At least be honest about what you are doing.

If you said to pregnant women considering abortion, 'OK, this doesn't suit you, so we can kill the baby for you because it's still tiny' - that would be honest. But of course the numbers having abortion would drop ... so what would also drop? THE REVENUE FROM IT.

It's a money-making business, and totally without morality on the part of those carrying it out - believe me. I had experience of the 'British Pregnancy Advisory Service' - what a misnomer, and a scandal.

So don't you guys all come on here huffing and puffing about when life begins. The facts are obvious. Just be honest about this. It's about convenience, and money.

Thank you, by the way, to those men who seem to get it.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]



These things just aren't true.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


wow, you people are sick.


why bother to post if you are just going to repeat the standard non-thinking 'wisdom'?

I am sorry, but I think only those who have been pregnant, and have had children, and also had a pregnancy terminated, are qualified to speak here. An unborn child - well, ok - say an unborn human being, then - is not just a bundle of cells. Well, in that case, we are all just a bundle of cells - just a bigger bundle, and able to breathe on our own and not needing total protection in which to develop and grow, from those who have brought us into being.

I am not any kind of 'god-botherer', and my sense of what this is all about is only born out of experience. When a woman is pregnant, she immediately, and keenly, feels the role of protector. To undermine this is really a most disrespectful, and ultimately violent, act.

Think what you like. I know. It is like people who think they know what it is like to lose a parent when they still have theirs. People just don't know. Ignorance is bliss.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I am a woman, and have been pregnant three times, so I can tell you with absolute certainty that: abortion is not about what you do with your own body - it is about what you do with the tiny little body whose life has been entrusted to your protection while it has no chance of protecting itself.

Woman actually CAN'T choose what happens with their bodies - lots of things happen to women that they have no control whatsoever over. They menstruate. They give birth. Even pregnancy itself is a huge example of something taking place within the woman's body, and she is not in control of that process. Nor is she meant to be - it is a natural process.


And that is as huge a problem as the termination of a life. Everyone around her will suggest abortion as the sensible option, but then they will all go home to their warm beds and families. And she will be the one left with the responsibility, and grief for the rest of her life, of never having seen her child's face.

Abortion is the biggest maltreatment of women around that I can think of. A significant number of women, however well they hide it, are very seriously affected emotionally, and many have problems with anxiety and other disorders to the end of their lives as a result of having gone ahead with a termination.

This isn't a simple subject. The woman's role as a mother, protector and nurturer of life, is completely undermined and trashed by abortion. This doesn't only have a catastrophic effect on the child, but also on the mother - and she is the one who has to go on living.

It is an unjustifiable act of, to my mind, extraordinary double standards, and it will no doubt be outlawed in decades or centuries to come, and looked upon as the grossest barbarity.

And, to be fair to Catholicism, this is exactly how the Church views it. The 'liberals' will work it out one day.

Love / Dating a Polish man - how to impress his mother? [51]

@rozumiemnic
Absolutely spot on.

Look, whatever you do will be not Polish, and therefore 'wrong'. Everything will be closely and critically observed. She may criticise and comment from Day 1, or take more time to get there, but get there she will. Don't try and impress her - what's the point? Waste of effort.

Just say: This is me. This is how I do things. Like it or hate it. Tough. He loves me.

She will probably respect you more for the above than any amount of special dishes and doilies on the table.

And never forget: she is a total cow, and perfectly upfront about that, and happy with herself. Never ever let yourself think otherwise.


No, they will be her grandchildren, and her main concern will be that they shouldn't be ruined and endangered by their non-Polish mother (i.e., you). She will be in her element as grandmother, and will not find it easy to keep her opinions to herself .. she will feel it her duty to speak up, for the children's sake. They will be fine: it is you who will suffer.

Travel / Why does everyone seem to hate LOT Polish Airlines? [380]


me neither since I just book the seat and saunter past the cruel-eyed Poles to the front of the queue ... with my own happy-eyed Pole who says that Priorytet is the most important part of the booking ... and he is right, totally right.

Love is ... agreeing it is worth the 10 quid to walk past everyone else ; )

Life / Izabela? - Advice with Polish name for a girl [36]

The issue with Wiktoria is to me mostly that when your daughter is learning to spell, the 'W' in particular will conflict with English for her. IF she were being brought up in a bi-lingual household, this wouldn't be a problem. But she isn't.

It's only one letter, though. She'll just have to get used to it.

And I think 'Milena' (lovely name) is a different kettle of fish - because it isn't a Polish spelling of a name which is also English. Really, the only thing you are doing with 'Wiktoria' is spelling it differently.

Our daughter is called 'Mia' and we also get a lot of mispronunciation ... that isn't a big deal, though. Personally I think confusing your daughter with Polish spelling is more of a thing. I guess she'll work it out in the end, though. But people will call her 'Wicky' ...

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


You are totally 110% correct.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


oh come on ... big, big statement ... surely not true? if so, i am like Einstein on coke ... which of course I am not ... is Polish SO hard? So what, it has cases? So what, the verb endings change? I did Latin ... now that WAS bloody hard ... like Lego, all the time ... any living language is a gift, because you can listen to it ... Polish isn't so bad. And the pronunciation is WAY easier than French, for an English tongue. Like a million times easier.


oh yes, I did German as well - and you are right - Polish again way easier. German was all bits stuck together (again, very Lego-like) (or much like the new Polo ...). And Polish easier to pronounce than German. For goodness' sake - a few consonant clusters, a couple of 'sh' sounds and everyone is having kittens ... what is this?? Polish is a perfectly reasonable language.

Love / What strange/unnerving/funny things do your Polish wives do? [153]


Well, thank you for the compliment, but actually I was just listing times in order of preference ... not meaning to say those times were my cumulative preference ; )

But yes, reading between the lines, or rather intercepting all the Polish glances around me, I too get the impression that most Polish wives have as strict rules concerning conjugal relations as they do with wearing slippers, etc. - oh, and sex is definitely one of their tools for controlling their guy, so if he puts a foot wrong, that is the first 'privilege' to be withdrawn.

Jeez. I just can't act like that. I mean, are all Polish men puppy dogs, and all the women Barbara Woodhouse? (look it up - an old grandma famous for her dog-training methods ... ; )

Life / 3 reasons why you hate Poland. [1049]


Now THAT is an interesting one. It has taken me a long time to realise that, in my trusting way, I was dealing with people who didn't trust. (Which means, of course, that if you're nice, they just think you must be after something - they can't believe that such innocent niceness actually exists in a person older than the age of 6 months ...). Really. It is saddening more than anything. Doesn't make me 'hate' anyone - far from it - but it is something that is a massive difference between say Poland and the UK, I think.

Love / What strange/unnerving/funny things do your Polish wives do? [153]


Morning.
Middle of the night (ie when asleep already then waking up 3/4am or so).
Lunchtime.
Afternoon.
Early evening.
Bedtime is almost the worst, for someone who is a morning person like me.

This question, though, can't surely be pretending to be about Polishness? ; ) Or ... do Polish wives have special designated times, and other times that are not acceptable? Possibly, very possibly.

Love / What strange/unnerving/funny things do your Polish wives do? [153]


some poor defenceless child's nose out ...

Life / Polish people are the most ignorant people in the world! [331]


whoever wrote this doesn't have English as their first language.

Genealogy / I love Asiatic influences in Polish peoples' faces [59]


not really as i don't care ... but it is a fact that there are very dark Polish people who look almost Far-Eastern. The one I know is mistaken for being Chinese.

ok, have looked it up now. There was a region known as TARTARIA, and the people from there are known as TATARS (pronounced in English 'Tartar').

Genealogy / I love Asiatic influences in Polish peoples' faces [59]

I don't know ... maybe. In English we would say someone is a 'tartar' and that means they have that slightly Mongolian look, and have heritage from that period of a very strong, violent tribe from the mountains. I thought this was associated with the Tatry mountains in Poland, but I could be totally and utterly wrong. Anyhow, it all seemed to make sense in my mind. But could be nonsense! Sorry if so.

Genealogy / I love Asiatic influences in Polish peoples' faces [59]

I know a Polish guy who looks very Mongolian - really very very. But this is just the Tartar influence, isn't it? There seem to be the dark-brown-haired, almost olive-skinned Poles, who are generally quite short/stocky, then the very fair Germanic/Scandanavian types, and then the Tartars. They are always very dark as well - always dark/black hair, dark eyes. The characteristic oriental cheekbones and really quite narrow eyes that I imagine the poster has noticed. Then also there is the thick-set, big-boned, large-faced Russian-mix type, which can include a bit of Tartar/Mongolian as well.

At least they've only got three or four types. We Brits are absolute mongrels in comparison!!

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


hate to be boring but wasn't all that what this whole discussion is about?

funny that you can't just say 'i have my opinion, but others are of course entitled to theirs ...' You just got us all going when you kept saying the foreskin should be removed because it is imperfect and going to give us all cancer or something else unpleasant, and that all women prefer circumcised ones anyhow ... but thanks, it was fun : )

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


well, the simple answer is, not wrong enough in this case ... or, as some would have it (me among them), perfect and not in any way wrong, so totally no physiological or aesthetic grounds for its removal.

Fuzzywickets, stop this nonsensical defence that the foreskin is 'not automatically perfect just because Nature designed it' and that that therefore somehow justifies cutting it off ... please ... circumcision is not based on medical or hygiene grounds. It is to do with deep-rooted cultural/religious 'notions'. And Poland is on the 'what? No way!!' side of the argument ... (omg i am so impressed with my constant referral to the original question ... no wonder I am so good at exams ; )

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]

Well, I guess that what you (plural, all males) think about what we (plural, all females) think about your dicks is ... something that sometimes does cross your minds? In the same way that we probably wouldn't want to do something to our bodies which made us less attractive to you.

But as I imagine you know, I was just joking.

Everyone should just go and read up on the history of circumcision around the world on Wiki. I know we are supposed to express our own original opinions here, but we do also need to get our facts from somewhere, and that's as good a source as any.

Some interesting titbits. For example, the Greeks didn't like circumcision at all, because they felt that a man was only truly naked when the foreskin was pulled back, and if you cut it off, then he was always on display. A view reflected here quite strongly in this discussion. And the reasons for circumcision or not were always cultural, the medical/cleanliness arguments always having only been to give validity to often religiously-based practices. There is stacks of myth about all of this - that circumcision was a rite of passage in some societies, or a punishment in others, or something done because apparently a snipped dick is less good at producing sperm that will thrive in all women, so good to have a hubby with one ... i.t.d.

I just thought it might be fun to look at everyone's dicks, that's all. Remotely, as is. Thought it could be so presented as to be relevant to the topic ...

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]

I think we should invite the male members of this site to post themselves, as it were, and then we females can have a good butchers (perhaps not the best choice of idiom) and say definitiwnie which we prefer ... this may lead us to a sensible conclusion as to why circumcision is not generally practised in Poland ... (practise being, of course, with an 's') (said the schoolmarm)

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


just like this fact?

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


goal : )


i did ; )

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


I'd better not start going into my preferences, or this thread really will need to be closed for cleaning ...

(I knew this discussion was going to de-generate at some point ; )

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]

nice pictures ; )

Protection.
Lubrication.
Pleasure.

All seem like pretty good reasons for keeping it, to my (admittedly fairly one-track) mind ...

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


... presumably because it was perfectly designed to work like that.

Ok, another question:
Why did Nature provide the foreskin in the first place? What is it there for? So if you remove it, what do you lose?

ps

It was of course a joke, in SATC - Charlotte, earnestly Jewish, and additionally squeamish, coy, and quasi-virginal, sees an uncircumcised dick and reacts as if she has just seen the devil. That is the joke. Samantha, on the other hand, was probably licking her lips.