Life / I saw Polish nationalism today [263]


Yes, exactly. Scottish and Welsh nationalism have the benefit (from the elites' point of view) of weakening English (and more importantly British) nationalism.

Anything small and divisive is supported and nourished while anything that can help unite the country at the national (in international terms) level is marginalized and dismissed.

Anyone who didn't realize the UK government was trying to maximize the non-indigenous, non-Christian and non-English speaking populations a long time before it leaked into the media was not paying attention or stupid. AFAICT they're still at it, despite some lip service to the contrary.

Life / I saw Polish nationalism today [263]

There are a lot of different kinds of nationalism and making the simplistic link nationalist=nazi is both inaccurate and about as useful as putting lipstick on a pig and calling her Lady Hamelot.

Some degree of nationalism is necessary for a country to function at all. The governments of the UK (and Ireland to a lesser extent) have been aggresively trying to destroy local nationalism but I don't think many people there much like the result. You can extend that actually to the indigenous population of any country where he elies are into post-national identities actually.

That said, groups like ONR and Młodzież Wszechpolska do have links in ideological terms with fascism for sure. They're also a completely predictable outcome of political policies since 1989. Nothing is going to prevent such groups from existing, the trick is to keep them small and marginalized.

I'm not worried about Poland going down the fascist past. The electorate was fooled at one point by LPR (more proto- than full fledged fascists) and once they got a good luck at them they were dead at the ballot box.

History / Are Poles happy with the current Polish borders? [134]


IIRC that was around the time the USSR broke up, it souldn't have been the case maybe right after WWII (when there was no independent Lithuania anyway). But a hopefully independent Lithuania then might like having another showcase city (to make up for not having Wilno).


Oh I could have handled that somehow (waves hand dismissively) and the Oder isn't much of a defensible natural feature anyway. And the Ukes could have been shipped to eastern Ukraine, Odessa and the Crimea to help Ukrainize those places.

History / Are Poles happy with the current Polish borders? [134]

The question is moot. Lithuanians and Ukrainians are not about to stand by and do nothing as Vilnius or Lviv turn back into Wilno or Lwów.

And if they did then I think certain neighbor to the west might have a thing to say about Szczecin and Wrocław....

Now if I were drawing the boundaries after WWII they would have looked a lot different (with roughly the western and eastern borders as before the war (and some of the northeast space and Konigsberg given to Lithuania and definitely no Russian enclave between Poland and Lithua. But I was in no position to dictate terms (since I wasn't born yet).

All things considered, it's a topic best left forgotten.

Finally, is this thread crow bait? I expect a lot of rambling about Sarmatia, Slavija and the crucial role of Serbia in uniting all Slavs any second now.

Life / My experience in Poland 15 years ago as an American trying to live and work there. [167]


Huh? IME most writers (except some journalists) are up their with actors and other performers in having thin skins. It's understandable I think, they do put themselves out there.

As for this book I don't have any particular comment. Skimming the exerpts indicates it's probably not my kind of thing. I was in Poland at the same time and mostly enjoyed it despite a lot of challenges (and my work bringing me up face to face with some the fringes of Polish society where getting by could be pretty dicey).

But ... I was also here for about half of 91, 92 and 93 each (and almost all 94). Compared to those years things in 95-97 were already looking up. The winters did take a lot of getting used to (the first winters were hardest not because of the cold but because of the dark, I wasn't expecting it and it hit me kind of hard).


That is funny (and all too true at the time, maybe still.....).

Oh, and I agree the US is generally a crappy ally (I'm American), if the US and Poland were a man and a woman Poland would be a booty call.

News / Polish in vitro treatment fully refundable - bonkers! [62]

Polonius3, if clergy speak as individual citizens that's one thing. If they speak as representatives of the church, then the church is a political organization and should be treated as such.

No one denies the church's right to try to convince, or even coerce believers. But civic law applies to all citizens and trying to form civic law that caters to catholic sensibilities when non-believers and non-catholics are not in agreement is a violation of the principles of civic society.

News / Polish in vitro treatment fully refundable - bonkers! [62]

I'd say the RC has every right to threaten members with excommunication for whatever internal RC reason they think up. As a non-catholic I have no standing to evaluate internal church affairs are between the church and the faithful.

I don't want them trying to set civic law for non-catholics though.

Overall in Polish politics there's far too much concern with telling other people how to live their lives. Whatever happened to 'individual conscience'?

Finally is there any evidence that this would boost low birth rates? AFAICT the problem isn't fertility but women choosing to not have kids because of employment concerns (and the fact that most women don't want more than one or two kids and won't have more unless coerced).

News / Polish in vitro treatment fully refundable - bonkers! [62]

Personally I have no theoretical problem with in vitro but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to make taxpayers pay for it.


I thought the mainstream church behaved fairly reasonably in the cross crisis. It wasn't church officials that were rabble rousing.

Food / What exactly is Polish Bread? [91]

Just to put in a plug for bread made with spelt (orkisz in Polish).

Chleb orkiszowy is really yummy. My favorite is sold in a whole loaf that they slice in the store if you want it that way. Really nice taste and structure, not too hard or gummy or soft and it keeps well. I don't understand why it's not more popular.

History / How Poland views Europe [44]


Not just Poles. I always thought 'Crazy Serb' was a pleonastic phrase like 'wet water'.

Language / Polish slang phrases - most popular. [630]

you might be thinking of szmata (both vowels like a in father) sz = sh

szmata (literally 'rag') in slang means something like slut, or white trash, low class etc.

It probably comes from Yiddish and is used in some kinds of Yiddish influenced English where it means 'cheap clothes'.

Travel / My visit to Poland - Likes & Dislikes. [137]


Spain: It depends on how you define 'English' there's a lot of people who can string English words together in ways that are generally understandable, but things like "I saw him to enter the car" "no can help" "you must to leave the room" etc don't really count as 'English' to me. On the other hand, I know Spanish well enough (that is I can string Spanish words together in ways that people usually understand) that I don't need to ask if people speak Englsh, my data is all from overhearing.

Portugal: More than in Spain and better pronunciation (maybe weirdo Portuguese pronunciation makes English easier for them?) but it runs out quickly and is mostly limited to stock answers so if you need more info then boa sorte (good luck).

Italy: Never been but I've heard from more than one person that French gets you much farther in there than English.

Travel / My visit to Poland - Likes & Dislikes. [137]


You're basically talking the Netherlands and Scandinavia, speakers of the languages closest to English). I've been to other subtitling countries (Greece, Portugal, Romania) and the level of English is certainly not all that impressive. A friend who was in both Finland and Norway (within a short time) said that Norwegians spoke much more and better English than Finns.

Generally, while I prefer watching subtitled entertainment (when I can't understand the spoken language) I think dubbing is much more fun. I think it's cooler to go to Hungary and see House speaking Hungarian rather than hearing him in American with funny scrawls at the bottom of the screen. ymmv.


Traditionally, Poles listen to music in English as if it were instrumentals or opera. They don't pay attention to the lyrics and often don't want to know what they mean. They just use it as mood music and fill in the emotions themselves. There are exceptions but that seems that most Polish people most of the time.

And, Poles have English in school because that's what the government decided. That doesn't mean they're especially interested in it (beyond vague ideas of seeming modern and up to date). And .... one of the dirty little secrets (one of many) of language teaching is that mass teaching doesn't necessarily produce people who can or will speak in a foreign language on command.

Remember any time you're in a foreign country, locals are basically doing you a favor if they choose to speak English with you. Be grateful and don't expect them to spend six years learning a foreign language so they can take your hamburger order or sell you a train ticket.

Work / Black English Teacher going to Wroclaw [247]

Practical advice: Dress and act 'American'. Most Poles can tell the difference between an American and African accent in Polish, make sure that the Polish you learn has a discernible American accent.

Food / Panga Fish (available in Polish stores); I'll never eat it again. Alternative? [68]

mintaj is Alaska pollock

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_pollock
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mintaj

Food / Panga Fish (available in Polish stores); I'll never eat it again. Alternative? [68]

The article strikes me as fear-mongering/commercial abotage/disinformation since a lot of the things they're complaining about are true of pretty much all commercial fish products and seafood now.

I've eaten panga, enjoyed it and won't refrain from buying it again (though I've never been a big fish eater).

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


Because either your English isn't that advanced or you're not a language specialist.

Berlin, Vienna, Frankfurt, Bern... what's the difference it's all German?

There are lots of areas where the differences don't matter, and lots of areas where they do. IIRC they haven't been able to build speech recognition software that recognizes British and American accents yet...


Very true. That's why I only accept work where specifically American (or more generalized international) usage is acceptable or required.

I've turned down work that specifically required British norms because i don't know those norms well enough. I've gained some passive knowledge over the years (more than 90% of Americans probably) but there's still a lot of holes.

One example: some years ago I was approached to be a consultant in a computer generated speech project and was tempted until I found out that it was supposed to be based on British norms and there's just no way I could do that. I suggested that they contact a Brit I knew (who was also fluent in Polish, which was necessary).

Food / Bologna & onions in Poland? [44]

Mortadella has the same basic taste and consistency of American Baloney.

The big difference is that packaged baloney is usually sold already thinly sliced while mortadella sits in a large ..... stick? roll? and sliced per customer order. I had a friend who would fry thick slices of mortadella in an egg and flour mixture, can't say I cared for it.

Spam is more like konserwa turystyczna or mielonka.

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]

American English =/= "International English"

"International English" (to the extent that it exists) is not a full language as it lacks the cultural references and emotional nuances that are typical of national varieties.

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]

For many Americans who come to teach in Poland, learning to teach from British textbooks can be a challenge due to differing vocabulary, idioms and phraseology (not to mention general ideas about how to put a textbook together).

Mostly Poles sound more like Americans I think because IME unless they've been specifically taught differently (on pain of failing) or have lived in a non-rhotic place in Britain for more than a few months, they usually pronounce r's before consonants and at the end of words.

I've had students who say they prefer British usage and want that kind of pronunciation but still pronounce all the r's. My r-ful American accent is not a good model for them though.

Language / WISŁA or VISTULA?? [46]


Well in modern Polish, Praha and Pracha would sound the same. But Czech h and ch are very different. The main difference is that h is voiced (llike d, b and g) while ch is unvoiced (like t, p and k).

It's also different from the Ukrainian or Belarussian g (which are like the Greek gamma) or spanish g between vowels.

In summary :

Polish g = voiced velar stop

Ukrainian, Belarussian g = voiced velar fricative (pronounced at the same place in the throat as Polish g but the throat remains open and doesn't close as it does in Polish)

Czech h = voiced glottal (further back in the throat than Polish h or ch) fricative/approximant.

Off-Topic / Are Polish Christians here? [160]

My very rough guestimates (based on many years of residence in Poland and observing people's religious behavior.

10-20 % hardcore, believing catholics

40-60 % catholic to the extent that they follow any religion, they want to get married in church and have their kids baptised but they don't necessarily attend mass every week (or month) and they may strongly disagree with church positions on certain issues.

10-20 % if you ask they'll say they're catholic, but you'd never know it from their behavior (may make it to church a time or two a year or on specific life milestones)

5 - 10 % overtly non-catholic (this includes followers of other christian denominations, non-christians, atheists, lapsed catholics etc

Work / Mechanical engineer born in Poland, grew up the States. Go back to PL. How? [29]


A good paying job in the US is nothing to spit at, they don't make so many of those anymore. My advice would be to avoid personal entanglements (no whoops! pregnancies) reduce expenditures and save up some bank while becoming literate in Polish. It's easy to find Polish newspapers on the web, start reading them every day. Start listening to Polish radio over the internet (esp talk radio). Maybe borrow some books of famous Polish literature in Polish from relatives. Keep it up until you can easily read newspapers like Rzeczpospolita and/or past and current authors and understand Polish financial news.

After a year or two of polishing your formal, professional Polish (as opposed to informal dinner table Polish) you might be in shape to actually find or start a business here and you'll have some resources so that you don't have to teach (if you don't want to).

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


I would be completely okay with calling my language American (and tweaking the spelling to make it more distinct). I feel about spoken British English roughly the way Norwegians probably feel about written Danish - yeah, I can understand it, but it's not really my language.

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]

Up until about 2004 I'd say it was roughly 50/50 among those with a preference based more than the idea that English English was more correct or proper.

When Poland joined the EU and Poles started migrating to the UK British became very dominant (and W Bush was generally unpopular here so that didn't help anything).

I'd say (maybe) in the last year or two American has regained some popularity but it's still nowhere near where it was pre-EU.

In commie times some Poles who'd never heard (or heard of) Black English did kind of freak out when they heard it live the first time in the US. "What language are they speaking?" was a common reaction.

IME younger people now are curious about it and not freaked out at all. A fakultet (elective) course in an English department on Black English would probably be pretty popular.

Language / Your perception of the Polish accent [145]


jejku..... I hope your political info is more accurate than your geographic info

Poland: 312,685 km2 = 120,696.41 sq mi

UK: 243,610 km2 = 94,060 sq mi

Poland is bigger than the UK but nowhere near twice as big,

or did you mean England? 130,395 km2 = 50,346 sq mi

Others have pointed out some of the reasons there aren't as many different regional accents in Poland as in the UK. I'll mention two more:

- regional accents aren't much tied to identity the way they are in the UK

- Polish spelling is a lot more rational than English spelling. Those Polish people who want to lose their regional accent can do so largely just by following the spelling while English spelling obscures the pronunciation which makes it harder for speakers to get rid of stigmatized features.

Life / Babcia klozetowa alive & well? [35]

I can stand watching movies with lektors if they're not in English. But the lektor destroys the movie for those who speak the original language as their native tongue (no matter how well they know Polish).

And .... when two different languages are being spoken at the same time it just sounds ... ugly, it's a very unaesthetic experience.

Sometimes I wish someone could get a native speaker of English to do an English lektor track over a Polish movie so Polish people could understand how terrible it sounds to other people.

As for babcia klozetowa I can't say I've met any recently. My two favorite memories:

Wrocław train station (early 90's) all the stalls are filled and i'm in a .... hurry. The helpful babcia walks up to one stall pounds on the door and yells at the guy to vacate ASAP.

Near Warsaw old town during 2002 WC, the sociable babcia starts talking to me and handicapping the WC from her post just as I'm getting down to business. I try to keep up my end of the conversation but it wasn't easy.

Life / Polish movies with English subtitles [87]


Nigdy w życiu starring Danuta Stenka, for my money, one of the most sensual of Polish actresses.

imdb.com/title/tt0400688

Not great but pleasant enough
(the Polish imdb reviewers are entirely too harsh, typical of Poles who love to criticize their country to foreigners and somehow don't realize this shapes Poland's international reputation).

There was a sequel or two as well but I haven't seen those.

News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]


I'm not an apologist for Russian strong-arm tactics and paranoia (both of which exist) but in the Georgian case, it's pretty well established that Georgia was the agressor.

Yes, a rational person can argue that the Russian response was too extreme (and I certainly would) but Georgia did initiate force in that particular case and Kaczynski's support of Saakashvili did him no creidt.

News / Do Poles in Poland really feel betrayed because there won't be any US Shield? [288]

Haven't read the whole thread or anything, but my anegdotal evidence:

I haven't spoken with that many Polish people about this topic (and when I have it's been a transitory kind of topic) but not a single person I've spoken wanted the US shield.

My sample leans _heavily_ toward the urban and well-educated.

My first, best guess is this is a policy question that Pollish people who live elsewhere feel most strongly in favor of.