Life / Blasphemy not OK in Poland! [54]


A gentleman friend of mine told me about this a while ago.

He is an attention seeker, he obviously knew full well that it would offend millions of people and will no doubt come out of this a very very rich man for all the publicity he is getting.

Like that idiot Terry Jones with his Qur'an burning stunt.

The more attention these morons get the more stupid things they are likely to do.

Terry Jones got famous for that burning stunt and has now moved into film "Innocence of Muslims film" again to offend people.

The should be ignored, giving them attention is all they want.

(and yes, you may all now point out the irony of me giving them attention while saying not to give them any attention:)

As for Blasphemy laws, they are stupid.

Travel / What is the weather like in Poland where you are now? [202]

Still snowing in Krakow.

Sunny in Krakow now, cold but sunny :)

The snow threw me off my game a bit.

Travel / What is the weather like in Poland where you are now? [202]

Snow in Krakow today.

Life / Which animals are native to Poland? [76]

polishforums.com/travel-tourism-5/polish-wildlife-similar-wild-life-live-31221/

polish.wild life us

History / "Westerner's" most ridiculous beliefs about the time of communism in Poland [73]

Thanks, so were these state run companies?

History / "Westerner's" most ridiculous beliefs about the time of communism in Poland [73]

What were the tv adverts like during communism?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Believe it or not this is a grey area too.


Brain death

So after the heart beats and before the brain dies, the central nervous system?


I don't see it as failure, I am just looking for the best results, which seem to be legalization because of self induced abortions and unsafe abortion would be far worse.


There is definitely logic in this argument, the problem arises when someone else is found committing a crime based on a doubt which they doubt a different way. The defense only has to be beyond reasonable doubt if it's set in stone, whereas this starts off with a doubt.


There are people who argue that rape is not a good enough reason to abort the fetus because the fetus did not do any wrong and should not have to pay the consequences for someone else's actions. I am not saying I agree with this, I am merely stating logic arguments that people hold to be truth.


I am going to stray from the topic just a little here, a very interesting definition is going to have to arise when/if humans ever invent true artificial intelligence.

If A.I. is created,


Wiki

Just to be clear I am not trying to say that IVF is a computer or anything like that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I definitely have doubts, it's the one thing I can be sure of.


I'm not sure how me having doubts makes your opinion?

The thing about my doubts are that I really can't say you are wrong, I can give my opinion but I'm not certain.

I'm pretty sure the beginning is not just sperm ( Pre 1677 Preformationism was believed to be true) and I'm pretty sure that it's a baby that women give birth to.

And based on that, I can't tell you or anyone else that they are wrong, I can only form opinions for myself on the information at hand, which this thread is helping me to do.

I am interested in hearing people's opinions on this and how they came about their opinion.


And still others believe the act of sex should only be for re-procreation and that that, if not hindered, will certainly cause more humans to be born, it's just at a very early stage.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]



Poland: 'Abortion tourism' reflects restrictive law
abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/824

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Harry, the strange thing about your point for me is that technology and medicines change. so 30 years ago the stage of termination would be a lot sooner than it is today and 30 years from now it'll probably be a lot longer. I think your main point is about the woman and her body. so does technology and medicine determine "life", in you view?

my computer`s gone mad, I'm back on the phone.
PF has thought me a lot about computer and now its gonna teach me a lot about smart phones.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

You are right and Thankfully I've never had to make such a dreadful decision.

I remember reading divorce rates after a couple had lost a child. it can destroy the relationship.

But does that mean you think it should be standard practice to save the child, if it's a choice between the mother and child?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Yes, but people don't.

I always thought free contraception and pregnancy tests would be a great idea but then the church says that's promoting promiscuity, which I disagree with, especially when you think about sexually transmitted diseases.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Harry, the strange thing about your point for me is that technology and medicines change.
so 30 years ago the stage of termination would be a lot sooner than it is today and 30 years from now it'll probably be a lot longer.

I think your main point is about the woman and her body.
so does technology and medicine determine "life", in you view?

Another problem with the time criteria we are discussing, is we are assuming that the woman knows she is pregnant, that can take a very long time 7/8 weeks (especially if she mistakes some bleeding for a period)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I could say the same about some religious people, not all of course.

Basically, some people like to take a life long vacation from thinking and follow others.
They are not specific to any belief, culture etc and they can be found in any group large enough to support them.


There's that us and them mindset you seem to enjoy.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

On that part I can agree with you.
I just prefer to use logic than blind faith.

But throwing everyone who doesn't believe in the Roman Catholic Church, into some lazy immoral gullible egoistic fool group is lazy immoral gullible egoistic and foolish

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Is there a link between púrn and rape?

I thought rape was more about power than sex and púrn more about voyeurism than power.

I am not going to start 'defending' púrn but I don't think you can blame it on increasing rape.

On another thread we were discussing rape and there has been a huge downturn in rapes between 2003 and 2010, at which time internet púrn would have been available.


A adult has hopes dreams and ambitions has left thier mark on a hundred or much more people.

Think about the family if the baby were to be saved first over the mother, the grief stricken father would have to be the sole provider and look after all the kids alone.

I would definitely choose the woman over the baby.

The Catholic Church and Abortion (for dummies)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I think those of us who are undecided lean more for personal choice for the simple reason we don't know, so how could we force it upon someone.


1) At the heart beat stage. (natasia and 4 foreigner)

There is a logic to the heartbeat too and again I would not force my idea onto them.

I could argue that a heart (in physical terms), is just an organic pump.
There is an emotional value to the heart that should not be over looked too quickly.
But if I started with that "logic", all we are is carbon and water :)
So I am back to I don't know.


Yeah, I thought G was pretty compelling too.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I see it slightly different but being a provocateur, I guess that can be expected :) There's a grey area.

I could be wrong about this, please correct me if I am.

A) We all seem to agree on education and contraception (condoms, morning after pill, the snip etc) before abortion, unfortunately the religious aspect of Ireland and Poland have staunch ideas against these.

B) Extreme for or against. Kondzior and Delphiandomine (why would we not use the equipment and medicines we have?)

C) In Vitro for or against (I presume most are for, with the exception of Kondzior)

D) if an abortion must take place, after would be killing:

1) At the heart beat stage. (natasia and 4 foreigner)
2) At the central nervous system stage. (Me)
3) At brain function stage. (Gabi)
4) When the soul enters (but most of us don't know when that moment is) (WB)

E) If the father wants the child but the mother doesn't, she should be forced to give birth. (p3undone)

F) It is the woman's body and it should be her choice. (Gabi, me, Delphi, Pgtx)

G) If abortion were made illegal in all countries, a shocking amount of people would die from either Self-induced abortion or unsafe abortion. there has been a lack of response to this one but I'll put (myself and p3undone) here. Correct me if I am wrong p3undone.

I know I left out a lot of the people and ideas you all included but I hope I covered the basics.


Facts can be very cold, hard and too objective.
People like me need to hear people's emotion experiences to get more of a balanced outlook.
The fact that I wrote this down in point form is proof of this :)
That's why in most things there are theory and practice.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


That is in essence what they are doing in Ireland and Poland.

Reminds me of Felo de se.


I think that's your whole argument.
And I can't answer that, I mean it's easy to be philosophical when it's happening to someone else.

Is it me, or are the people against abortion living in countries that it's legal and people for are living in countries where it is not? on this thread?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Then she be forced against her will to have the baby?

Just out of curiosity, how would we force a woman to have a baby, in practice?

It would be near impossible to ascertain whether he wanted a child before sex and she didn't.

I have met women who think getting pregnant would keep "her" man by her side.
This sounds like a similar kind of manipulation in reverse, except she has to bear the child.

As I said, it is open to interpretation.

I personally think it is much more the woman's choice but the man should have the right to state (not do) his opinion.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


One that troubles me is (and of course there are thousands of circumstances), Are girls getting pregnant to audition for MTV's 'Teen Mom'?

WB's circumstance was too 'nice',
Lets say a teen gets pregnant for the audition for MTV's Reality-TV show, for fame and the $60,000.
She doesn't get the part and then decides to have an abortion,

Of course I am not suggesting that she be forced to have the baby out of revenge for her stupidity.
It's really messed up and this "glamour factor" and pure unadulterated vanity is pushing it too far for me.

MTV should really get the law suit kicked out of them for their irresponsibility because they are the adults and should know better.

I bring this up because I was thinking of the age thing and these days people seem to mature much later (not 100% but it appears that way).


Well this to me is the crux of the whole thread.
Different people believe that human personhood begins at different times, some as early as sperm, some as late as after the baby comes out but it's the grey middle that is the interesting problematic questionable part.

I assume most of us would agree that it doesn't happen as early as sperm or as late as actually being born.

We're on thin ice.


So the biological mother should have to have a baby she doesn't want on the request of the father?

It should of course be discussed but jezz, that could be open to all sorts of interpretation, forcing the mother to have a baby.


Fair point but at least it would be in people's minds rather than the fire and brimstone outlook I got at school.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Strange how Wiki says
- fertilization, the fusing of the gametes to form a zygote
- implantation, the start of pregnancy, occurring about a week after fertilization

I don't have all the answers and this thread has made me look at things I didn't know before.
Why the heck wasn't I thought this in school or even discussed it properly in school?

night folks.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


You know what my next question is, right?

What would be your cut off point?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers


it is a tough topic, there's no doubt.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Hmmm... I don't know.

I'll have a look and see, I presume it has breached the egg... but what happens then?

Edit*

You can get the morning after pill in Ireland and Poland, so presumably it's not considered an abortion.


I guess the sperm is still swimming.

Would it make a difference to any of you how far into her pregnancy she was?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


That's a point, same as freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is not about hearing what you want but about people being able to say what you don't want.

And if the mods are handing out vacations, A ticket to Bali would suit me just fine :)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

I googled it:

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


I know a girl who was brought up believing her mother was her sister and her grandmother her mother.
It was devastating when she found out.

I am not saying you wouldn't tell everyone who was who but some people are afraid of other people's judgment.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Morning after pill?

I know you want a yes or no but I can't make such a decision for someone else.
I presume the parents would be heavily involved in the decision because of her young age.


Do you think she's old enough to decide and fully understand the implications of that decision, either way?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]


Of being illegal. Poland and Ireland have neighboring countries for the people to go to for abortions.

If abortion were made illegal in all countries, self induced abortions and unsafe abortions would kill a large amount of people, along with that trauma and it being an illegal business it would have to be taken over by gangsters.


And again I advocate education and contraception before abortion.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]

Could we keep this a discussion, please?