News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]


By the same logic, they also excluded the USA, Turkey and the UK. Which is a ridiculous notion.

You could have tried to include all those countries since they are either neighbours or signatory powers of the Budapest memorandum, but it is clear that Russia would have never agreed to such a constellation that would leave itself so vastly outnumbered.

The Ukraine asked Germany and specifically Merkel for help, since she is known to be a skilled negotiator and and as the only Western politician that Putin takes seriously. Merkel than asked Hollande for assistance, since it can for historically reason not negotiate in such a delicate constellation. As such Merkel could play the honest broker and did in fact achieve a significant success with Minsk II.

Poland was never in consideration, since it both lacked the influence on Russia and was seen as far to hostile to Russia to act in good faith. Though Berlin and Paris did try to include Poland into their East European strategy via the Weimar triangle, and they consult them frequently on Russia and the Ukraine while Poland was governed by PO. But sadly, PiS was fully succesful with their attempts to self-isolate Poland and thus Poland has lost most of its' pre-2015 influence.

News / Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons [1199]

Keep in mind that this article is from March, when it was yet unclear how fast Germany and the EU would response to the crisis.

There is now reason to believe that Germany might master the crisis better than other countries, though it will - like all mayor economies - no doubt be severely affected by it.

nytimes.com/2020/07/19/opinion/coronavirus-germany-economy.html

All the money Germany saved up under Schäuble might now come in handy.

Law / Asylum laws in Poland [41]

It would be interesting to know the details of this incident. I can only assume that the Dutch have similar standards like other countries and dont just take the word of strangers for it, without checking. If they took the child immediately, than the conditions at home must have been rather alarmimg.

Law / Asylum laws in Poland [41]

The question should be what is better for the child, not the parents. The fact that their child was taken in foster care is huge red flag.

News / Poland's demographic, migration & fertility rate disaster [34]


I don't see that difference. Countries like Germany have also introduced a lot of financial incencitives, but this is not going to fundamentally change the birth rate. Most women who choose not to have children do so because they dont want to give up their career and maintain their freedom. A few bucks more per month wont convince them.

France is doing quite well partly because they managed to integrate mothers better into the qorkforce, by providing them with daycare services and schools that are open for most of the day.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]

I wouldnt count on that. Many have already lost a lot of money by betting on the end of the euro since 2009.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


Gay Poles are just as Polish as straight Poles.


Sure, but there must not be a difference between what e.g. a gay and a straight couple can do in public.


Because they want to live as anybody else does, as should be their right.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


That is just fundamental human decency speaking.

There is no justification for any modern society to descriminate against gay people.

News / Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates [2222]


It is indeed terrible that there are still people who find it acceptable to discriminate against gays. And as long as gay couples face discrimination, vitriol and violence by those people it will be necessary to push back with everything available.

Any gay couple should be able to walk hand in hand down in any small Polish village without being antagonized.

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


I found an interesting scientific study (in German unfortunately, but written by a famous Polish-German scholar Dr. Andrzej Kaluza) on this issue:

bpb.de/internationales/europa/polen/40858/analyse

It makes a lot of interesting claims that I could partially validate.

One of them concerns the often repeated claim that Poles enjoyed "minority rights in Weimar. This is in fact not really true, at no point does the Weimar constitution state that. Article 13 merely states that no minority should be surpressed in their cultural identity, but that does not imply minority rights as we would understand them, which means the active support via the state (e.g. financing the teaching of their language). It was forbidden in Weimar to e.g. force a child to abandon its' Polish native language, but the state was not required to provide it with opportunities to nurture it. And there is no other legal document that could be interpreted as granting the Poles minority rights. (The analysis mentions two other documents that have been brought up but thoroughly debunks them, if necessary I can come back to them later but as of right now I am too lazy to translate the complicated terms). So saying that giving Poles minority rights would restore them rights which they lost under Nazi Germany is de factor false. Mind you that was something Polish Germans criticized from the very beginning, and which is why those Polish minority rights groups formed in the 1920s.

There is also an important legal argument which I shall quote here in case I mistranslate it:

Es handelt sich dabei um Gruppen von Menschen, die eine eigene nicht-deutsche Identität besitzen, gleichzeitig aber das Gebiet des deutschen Staates seit Generationen bewohnen. So haben z. B. die Dänen Minderheitenrechte, die ihnen ein deutsch-dänisches Abkommen von 1955 gewährt, die aber zumeist nur auf wenige Landkreise in Schleswig-Holstein beschränkt sind; ein aus Flensburg stammender Deutscher dänischer Herkunft kann dort einen dänischsprachigen Kindergarten für seine Nachkommen verlangen, nicht aber in Berlin.

Basically only groups which are acknowledged by international law, and who still identify as such and who lived in Germany for generations can enjoy special privileges tied to the area they live in. Which is why Danes have privileges in certain parts of in Slesvig Holstein, but not e.g. Berlin.

Since "Ruhrpoles" were never a specific minority group recognized by international law, and by 1945 can hardly be said to still have formed a distinctive group, this no longer applies. All Poles arriving in Germany after 1945 are thus treated as any other migrants.

It is also worth noting that (at least until 2011 when this was written) the only group who consistently used the legal term "minority" were Polish lobby groups, even Polish politicians have not used it with its legal implications. The German interpretation has apparantly been upheld by several courts. The reason why this was never brought before an European court is that most Western European countries do not recognize minority rights to begin with (hence why other countries with many Polish migrants do not even contemplate this).

This is only up to page 2 out of page 4, I'll translate the other parts at a later time.


I really would not recommend this one. This site is dominated by right-wing radicals,

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]

Well, according to this article here, Poles only enjoyed minority rights in Upper Silesia, an area that fullfilled the criterias mentioned a few posts before.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Poles_in_Germany

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


It is not really surprising. Most of those Sinti and Roma have in fact lived in Germany for many generations, often even within a certain region, despite their reputation. Which is why, along with the Sorbs, Friesen and Danes in Slesvig, Germany was obligated due to the EU Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities to recognize them.

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


Well, you said it bewildered you how people would say that Danzig was German when it was transfered to Poland, and I pointed out to you that by 1945, it most definitely was by any reasonable indication. That doesn't mean that it was necessarily one at a different point in time.



Well said.

Mostly because they were oppressed by Serbia and there was no other realistic solution? How is that in any way similar to the Poles who live in Germany today?


It is not a matter of time.


Why? Do you think there is much of a difference between a Pole and a Vietnamese who migrate to e.g. Munich? Neither of them would have any historical link to the area, and likely travel there for the same reason (work).

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


The Wiki puts it pretty well:

Wolff and Cordell say that along with the debunking of communist historiography, "the 'recovered territories' thesis ... has been discarded", and that "it is freely admitted in some circles that on the whole 'the recovered territories' had a wholly German character",


I am sure even you will admit that "Forget about those lands ever being "German" is a statement is completely unsubstantiated by facts.


Claiming anything else is just silly. The facts are that this city had belonged at this point to Germany for centuries, and was populated almost exclusively by Germans. That makes it a German city by any indication. Or would you say that e.g. Szeczin is still a German city because it used to be German for most of its* modern history? never mind who lives there now? Or should we consider e.g. Strasbourg Italian because the Romans founded it?

There is no need to instrumentalize history in order to justify the present. Lviv used to be a Polish city but is now Ukrainian. Danzig was a German city and is now Polish. But its' present state doesn't change what it used to be at a certain point in time, nor does what it used to be gives somehow justification to change the present.


You need some sort of rule for practicality reasons. On a continent with freedom of movement, you can't just grant minority rights to any group of migrants, that is pretty clear. The idea behind minority rights was to a) pacify ethnic conflict lines and b) to help those who found themselves under different rulers without fault of their own. They were not intented to allow a group to relocate and assume special rights over the areas' original inhabitants-

I mean to be perfectly honest, I don't really think that minority rights between EU member states with freedom of movement are all that justified to begin with. Everyone can nowadays live in his chosen country, get full citizen rights and the internet allows everyone to stay in touch with his home culture if he so chooses. All countries are democracies and bound by rule of law (though sadly Hungary is on a bad path right now) and i would trust them to treat all their citizen free and fairly.

It would just reflect badly on Poland if it were to break its' legal obligation in the case of German minority rights.

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


Very considerate, but what I feel pain about is when people try to distort history. Poland owes the territory now, no need to lie about the past, have a bit more confidence in yourself.


So I suppose it is a good thing that most migrants to Germany are from Eastern Europe?


Just give it some time and those tools will (thankfully for Poland and Germany) become dull. I have no doubt that the next generation will have a similary close relationship to each other than French and Germans enjoy today. By then nobody will care about the silly reparation(non-) issue, the antiislam hysteria will have died down and LBGTQ will be fully accepted by the Polish people. That much is inevitable. the current generation of Poles living in German will play an important part in this. Better to get your opinion regarding Germany shaped by the uncle working in Berlin, than your grand-father who fought against the Germans. ;)

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


That is a lot of nonsense and you know it.


It won't. Poland is legally obligated to it according to the Treaty of Good Neighbourship

Polonia / Polonia in Germany [59]


Precisely. And I don't see any sound reasoning against that. Minority rights are meant to protect minorities who at some point found themselves under different rulers without their input. They are not meant to apply to those who just wanted a better job and higher pay.

I mean do the Ukrainians have minority rights in Poland?

History / What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)? [188]


They had to de facto scrap out the entire building right down to its' core. It would have been possible to preserve it afterwards, but it would have been very expensive and why go to so much trouble for a building that a) has a very problematic history and b) looks just god awful. It might be good enough for a shopping mall, but not for the city centre of a capital.

Please stick to the topic

Off-Topic / DALMATIA - How much Poles love Dalmatia ? [123]

Who is willing to bet that those protests are in truth about something completely different... ?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


What are you talking about? There are few countries who want the USA to stay in Europe as much as Germany. The American presence in Europe has been vital for German interests since Adenauer.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


They talked a lot like all socialist revolutionaries did, but realistically speaking, they were far from capable of doing so. Poland did offer them an opportunity to expand westwards with this war, but they made up for it by stopping them at Warsaw.


You can add as much to a settled bill as you want. Feel free to add interest for the partitions of Poland if it makes you feel any better. ;) A forum like this is a good place to blow off steam. No harm in his, since our politicians are wise enough to leave those things buried where they should be.

Life / A Third of Poland has declared itself to be an official "LGBT - Free Zone". [20]

Homophobes seem to spend a lot of time fantasizing about what LBGT supposedly do. It helps them rationalize their hatred, because otherwise they would have to admit that they are hating against ordinary people with no reason what so ever.

Because that is what this hate campaigns is aime at: Ordinary people who are ostracized for no good reason at all.

euronews.com/2020/01/23/these-photos-highlight-the-human-hurt-over-poland-s-lgbt-free-zones

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I am sure, many Ukrainians (and others) appreaciated that they did not have to live in the SU during the Holodomor, but that was just an unintented and unforseeable side-effect.


That was hardly the case. What became later the SU was at this point still caught in a civil war, and in no position to threaten the rest of Europe. This purely a war of conquest, intented to stabilize the newborn Polish republic. There are lots of statements of Piludski and other Polish generals and politicians about the aim of this war. I am not condemning this mind you, Poland acted out of understandable self-interest. But let us not glorify this as a second siege of Vienna.


According to this autor perhaps. I could think of at least 50 battles of greater importance for European history, let alone world history. No doubt this battle was important for Poland, but the only tangible consequence for other countries was that it gave later Hitler a rope to hang Poland with and make a deal with Stalin.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

Lets' not pretend that the Polish-Soviet war was an Polish attempt to "help others" for historical' accuacys' sake. Poland wanted to take land from the Soviet Union, that is all there is to it.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


What writers? Here is a list of the founding fathers of the EU. I don't think anyone of them had a socialist, let alone communist outlook. Most of them were in fact conservative.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_fathers_of_the_European_Union

None of them would have used the SU as role model. And none of them did, they only looked at the US for guidance. It is one thing to repeat those Braitbard lies among your skinhead friends in the USA, but trying to do so on a forum with Europeans is just stupid.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Complete and utter nonsense. The founding fathers of the EU were devoted Christians who loathed Communism and the UdSSR with a passion. If anything the USA was the big example they wanted to follow, hence the dream of a United States of Europe.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

Instead of imaginary diktats from Bruessels it would be subject of very real ones from Russia, China and the USA.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


As you and others have noted, this is not because of the EU, and not even because of Poland, but because of the current government in Warsaw. Poland under PO was on its' way to becoming a key player in the EU. Poland is generally well disposed for becoming a hugely important player in the EU, its geographic position and economic strength make it the obvious choise of leading the Eastern European bloc inside the EU. The EU is in fact well suited for Poland's interests, since it generally strengthens smaller and medium sized member states over large ones like France and Germany (large ones are ofc still more influential than others, but less so then they would be under normal circumstances).

But since the EU is based upon solidarity and cooperation, if one refuses to abide by those principles, he will end up marginalised because he refuses to play by the rules. Which is what PiS is doing. By pointlessly antagonizing the other European countries (Germany by pointless reparation demands, Southern Europe by refusing to take even a symbolic amount of refugees), Poland has wasted its' potential.

Nobody can blame the EU when it is Poland who is prioritizing domestic over foreign policies.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


There is a big difference between considering something illegal and merely as grey area. In dubio pro reo, calling it illegal with this argument is incorrect.


It would have looked better, especially in hindsight, but there was no requirement to do so.


Not really. It was obviously the right decision. All democrats knew this, and since demagogues of the AfD had yet to pollute the Bundestag, they decided accordingly.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

No court has declared it as illegal, despite the best attempts of the AfD. So of course it can not be considered illegal.


There was no legal need to consult the parliament. Nor was it done in "dictatorial" fashion, because that implies that Merkel deprieved the parliaments of its' rights. Another AfD lie. What happened was that Merkel held a press conference in early September, and the opposition had the opportunity afterwards to demand a debate in the Bundestag afterwards. Which they did not do, because they agreed with Merkel's decision. Nothing dictatorial there.