The BEST Guide to POLAND
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Posts by TheOther  

Joined: 13 Jul 2009 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - A
Last Post: 27 Jul 2024
Threads: Total: 6 / Live: 1 / Archived: 5
Posts: Total: 3596 / Live: 951 / Archived: 2645

Displayed posts: 952 / page 19 of 32
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TheOther   
30 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

Young people seeing their peers visiting, studying or working in other countries could easily be regarded as a form of cachet that they would want for themselves too.

Makes sense in a way, but we shouldn't forget that the 41% are on top of the millions that left Poland in the (relatively) recent past already. Wonder if that is going to bite Poland one day. Economic success needs people to feed it.
TheOther   
29 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

Nice post, Bieganski.

I imagine this 40% figure would be pretty much universal among young people.

That's an interesting thought. Is that mostly based on economic necessity or "political claustrophobia" (quoting Haaretz), or are young people simply more adventurous these days, what do you think? I have a hard time comparing Poland to Israel, especially when I look at the powder keg that is the Middle East.
TheOther   
29 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

Country is turning into regional leader. Economically doing better every year.

Okay, then explain this: uatoday.tv/society/41-of-young-poles-plan-to-emigrate-despite-strong-polish-economic-performance-417077.html
TheOther   
20 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

Einstein was working in Zürich

Well, if that would mean anything: Einstein was German before he became a Swiss and later an American citizen.

Switzerland has never been a large, highly industrialized nation like GB, F or D for example, so maybe ground breaking innovation wasn't as necessary (from an economic perspective) as in other countries. Also, could it be that the population of Switzerland is statistically not big enough to produce a significant number of Nobel prize winners? The large number of Jewish winners is in my opinion based on the fact that they almost all came from nations with large populations, comparatively good school systems and societies that value innovation and knowledge.
TheOther   
20 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

I agree, Barney. There are too many factors that determine the success or failure over someone's lifetime. Your family, your nutrition, your education, the neighborhood you grow up in, the country you were born in, ... . In the end it might be simple luck that determines whether you are top or flop.
TheOther   
19 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

For a minute though, I thought this was gonna be another "The Jews were responsible for their own fate..!" type deal, sorry!

Okay, my apologies then.
TheOther   
19 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

which was, namely??? No, we don't know

You are serious, are you? Hitler and the NSDAP picked the Jews to blame them for being the main reason for the loss of WW1. Ever heard of "Dolchstosslegende" (rhetoric question - the answer is of course no)? Using them as scapegoats was a preparation for what was to come later. Expulsion of Germans of Jewish faith, Kristallnacht, KZ's, Ausschwitz...

I know that some of our PF brownshirts are a bit thick, but that someone could possibly be as ignorant as you is certainly a new low.
TheOther   
19 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

It is a fact that Jews and Jews alone were blamed by the Nazis especially as harbingers of despised Communism

Exactly, they were 'blamed' ... and they were blamed for a very specific reason, as we all know.
TheOther   
18 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

Questioning "Why?" the differentiation is, with respect, as useless as, for example, asking a statistician conducting a survey on prison populations in the US why they differentiated between African American, Hispanic American, Asiatic American, Caucasian American etc people in custody in the USA when they are all Americans anyway.

Difference is, African American, Hispanic American, Asiatic American, Caucasian American are still considered Americans.

The "Why" is important because "the Jews" are made responsible for what happened between 1945 and 1989 because they were "overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus" until 1954 as someone stated. It's a broad generalization, as you know, and its only purpose seems to be to distract from that particular part of Polish history. Propaganda. Real Poles cannot possibly be communist, it must have been the Jews and/or the Soviets. Roughly 50% of the MPB directors were Polish according to that particular source, and another 37% were Jewish. How many of the latter were Polish citizens? What about the years from 1954 to 1989? The Soviets were ultimately responsible for what happened behind the Iron Curtain, of course, but there were still 3.5+ million members of the Polish communist party - 10% of the population.

Do with them? In what regard exactly?

What I meant is that you can't claim that 3.5 million people were simply opportunists, Jews or traitors. That doesn't make them go away and doesn't undo what happened. Maybe the Nazis were also only opportunists and traitors, or the Chinese communists (when the Chinese system will fail one day)? When it comes to history, you can't just cherry-pick the great achievements of Poland's past and pass the buck if there is a stain.

From 100's to 1,000,000's in the space of a few years suggest the Soviets and Polish Communists were selling something in their doctrine that really appealed to all those Poles who joined up after WW2

Well, they were selling the same sh*it as the Nazis, just in a different color. Just shows how effective propaganda can be, I guess.

you identify strongly with your German heritage

Come on, mate, stop that nonsense please. I've explained to you a million times already that I'm only interested in the genealogical aspects of it, so don't try to file me under a category that allows you to close your eyes and abolish thinking.
TheOther   
18 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

Some nations fare better than others

On the long run, the quality of the school system and the loving support of a child by his/her family is probably even more important than genes, although intelligence seems to be inherited to a large extent.
TheOther   
18 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

It was simply his response to you mentioning the throwing out of Germans from Poland

Sorry, that's nonsense. He was responding to this:

Well, after the wall came down there were virtually no East German commies to be found either. You are right, of course: most of the Polish communists were simply opportunistic much like their German counterparts, but that didn't prevent them from oppressing their own countrymen and women.

The sentence about the Lutherans has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I wrote about historical facts because the overrepresentation of Jews in directorship of the MBP in 1944-1954 is a historical fact

The point still is: many of these Jewish people were Polish. You differentiate between them, and my first question in this thread was "Why?" Back to square one?

try the straightforward Slavic way - simply ask the question...

Unfortunately, many Slavs don't like certain uncomfortable questions. What do I do? :)

I don't know, maybe we need here some kind of Western to Eastern and Eastern to Western translator

You know, that may really be the case. I've seen it quite often here over the years that Poles come across as overly nationalistic, stubborn and incapable of accepting opposing views. Westerners on the other hand might give the impression of being quite arrogant. That's at least what East Germans tell me about their West German counterparts. I'm sure there are many other negative attributes that I forgot. Growing up in different political systems, the language barrier and other factors are responsible for all that in my opinion, and it will take at least another generation to overcome this.

An individual or nation of people cannot be held to account or responsible for the actions of a Government with no popular mandate and/or lawful/legitimate foundation

So what do you do with those 3.5+ million Polish members of the communist party? Deny that they ever existed? I've seen this question popping up after the fall of the Wall already with the East German SED members.
TheOther   
17 Mar 2015
History / Poles should emulate Jews? [153]

Ever consider the percentage of scientists, musicians, writers, scholars, politicians, entertainers, etc. they have produced?

Isn't that mainly dependent on the environment in which people (not only Jewish) are raised? A person growing up in a crime-ridden favela in Brasil is much less likely to become a famous scientist than an equally talented person from - say - Martha's Vineyard (just a random example for a ghetto of the rich and famous).
TheOther   
16 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

As I said, Paulina, read the three posts and then tell me how you would interpret Polonius' statements that "since Jews at that time accounted for no more than about 1% of Polish society, that means they were 37 times overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus." while at the same time quoting that therefore "the subjugated and non-sovereign Polish nation bore no repsonsiblity" for anything that happened during communist reign (interestingly, this particular post seems to have now vanished from the thread, but you can still see the quote in #353). The above is the only reason why I said something. Polonius understood where I was coming from and revised his answer/ got into more detail, but you still pretend that you do not understand.

As for the Lutheran dead horse that you are still flogging (sarcasm, do you get it?):
You need to read the thread and how that argument developed (#330 -> 331 -> 345). Polonius stated that "Poles were in their own country, Jews were outsiders seeking asylum and received it." to which Jon responded "Outsiders for one generation, then insiders as much as anyone else.Their own country too by that stage, unless you believe that one group should have perpetual rights and another be denied them." I agreed with that and questioned Polonius' next post (that no religious group has ever been expelled) by turning it around - essentially asking him what the difference might be between ethnic cleansing and expelling someone on religious grounds. Harry and Jon understood, you on the other hand didn't get the sarcasm and keep banging on about this ever since.

It's simple, Paulina: if you agree with the notion that most communists in the Polish communist party were Jews and that Poland therefore bears no responsibility for what happened in the country between 1945 and 1989, then just say so. You certainly sound like you are blaming "the Jews" because you were talking about "historical facts" when we were discussing these points earlier. Maybe I misunderstood, maybe I didn't and you are just a PiS voter (watch out: sarcasm) ...

I wrote in one of my posts that "there are some really hopeless cases of anti-Semites who see Jews in probably every communist that ever lived in Poland".

Yeah, that's why I wrote much earlier that...

According to a small group of people here on PF (usually from the US or Canada, and with a brownish political affiliation), no "real Pole" could have possibly been a member of the communist party .

Read the thread, Paulina, read the thread... :)
TheOther   
15 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

Which things "don't leave room for interpretation"

Paulina, just read the thread from the beginning and check out #60, 61 and 98 for example. If you still don't know what I'm talking about then I can't help you.

some of your comments simply don't relate to what people are writing (like the one about Lutherans).

That is called sarcasm...

that is ... :)

See the smiley at the end of that particular sentence?
TheOther   
15 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

focus on what people are actually writing

The way certain things were presented here don't leave room for interpretation. Sorry Paulina, but it seems it's only you and Vox who can't (or don't want to) see the obvious...
TheOther   
13 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

I thought you don't believe in ethnicity.

Where did I say that? Every nation has its own ethnicities, but in the end they are all Poles, Germans, Americans, ... simply citizens who identify with their country. After two or three generations, ethnicity becomes less important as people tend to mix and assimilate over time. This case here is a little different. Poles of Jewish faith/ethnicity are singled out and used to make a crazy argument that blames them for the communist era in Poland. Adolf did the same; just on a different level. Remember?

nobody is saying that "Poles are by no means responsible for anything that happened during communist times".

I won't go into detail, but you haven't been a member long enough to come to that conclusion. Have you seen the last quote in my previous post by the way?

even in US today, who mostly votes for republican? faith does have an impact

Being a Christian in the USA doesn't mean you are automatically a Republican. It also doesn't mean that you are suspected of wanting to install a terror regime.

who said communists have to be bloody and inflict terror.

I've yet to see one who didn't once he was in power (Italy maybe the exception).

Now you can change your religious affiliations like it or not, but not your ethnicity, in other words your genetics.

That argument came up before and it still doesn't make sense. Just imagine every single one of your ancestors came from a different country. After a while you'll end up with so many different ethnicities that you don't know who you are in the end.

Let's leave it at this. We are running in circles.
TheOther   
13 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

Just quickly:

If they are differentiated on other occasions (usually by you, Westerners, and by Jews themselves) than why not in this case too?

Because faith and/or ethnicity is used as a weird argument to support the notion that Poles are by no means responsible for anything that happened during communist times. Silly Easterners ... :)

What faith? They were communists.

I was referring to this:

Since Jews at that time accounted for no more than about 1% of Polish society..., that means they were 37 times overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus.

What does ethnicity and/or faith have to do with someone's political affiliation? The above sentence makes it sound as if people of Jewish faith are genetically predisposed to become a bloody communist, inflicting terror on his country.

Jews in Poland weren't just of different faith but also of different ethnicity.

Only ethnic Poles can be loyal to Poland, that's what you're saying?

Were they expelled for being Lutherans? Nope.

Is ethnic cleansing morally superior (or any different for that matter) to expelling someone based on his/her faith?

I don't think anyone claims in this thread that there were no (ethnic) Poles serving the communist terror apparatus.

Hopefully...

Remember Mazowiecki's iconic thick line, meaning that free Poland would not be liable for what the regime had done over the preceding 45 years.

TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

...and their Kremlin-backed puppets

According to Wikipedia there were 3.5 million of those "Kremlin-backed puppets" in Poland in the 1970's. Around 35 million people lived in Poland in 1979, so we are talking about 10% of the population. Are you really sure that

...the subjugated and non-sovereign Polish nation bore no repsonsiblity

?
TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

When were those Lutherans expelled?

After May 8th, 1945 ...

There were vietrually no true communsits in Poland

Well, after the wall came down there were virtually no East German commies to be found either. You are right, of course: most of the Polish communists were simply opportunistic much like their German counterparts, but that didn't prevent them from oppressing their own countrymen and women.
TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

no religious groups was ever expelled from Poland

Except for the Lutherans who made up the majority of a certain ethnic group, that is ... :)

Outsiders for one generation, then insiders as much as anyone else.

Exactly.

I understand now.

You have no clue whatsoever, dude. Otherwise you would've noticed the elephant in the room that is called the Polish communist. According to a small group of people here on PF (usually from the US or Canada, and with a brownish political affiliation), no "real Pole" could have possibly been a member of the communist party . Those who are to blame for the suffering of the Polish people after WW2 are always Jewish, Soviet/Russian, or both.
TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

The communist terror apparatus was not overrepresented by members of a certain religious denomination but by a specific ethnic group.

Does that change the fact that members of this ethnic group were also Poles (as in Polish citizens)?
TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

Would it be possible for you to share with us unworthy mob your thoughts on a subject?

If you are incapable to understand two simple sentences, then what's the use to explain in detail?
TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

if thats the case then all who claim that tehre was any anti-semitism in pre war Poland are wrong

Why would that be? Jews in Germany were also Germans, and you know what happened. Shiites and Sunnis are both Iraqis, but they are still at each other's throat.
TheOther   
12 Mar 2015
History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]

Since Jews at that time accounted for no more than about 1% of Polish society, that means they were 37 times overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus.

What I don't understand is why you differentiate between Jews and Poles. They were all Poles - just with a different faith. The MBP numbers above are to be taken with a grain of salt then.
TheOther   
9 Jan 2015
Law / The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland? [2237]

Roger5: I think that if I went to live in the USA, I'd think seriously about buying a firearm to keep at home.

If you watch the American news channels or read the papers, you will get a wrong impression about how widespread crime really is in the US. They'll make you think it's everywhere, they'll make you paranoid (armed teachers in schools as an example), and they'll make you believe that you definitely need a gun to protect yourself against some invisible bad guy. Typical NRA bull. The reality looks different: unless you walk through no-go zones in certain cities after dark, the chance to get robbed, injured or killed is close to zero. People here need to chill, as crime rates in the US are actually decreasing.
TheOther   
30 Dec 2014
Law / USD shooting up so high for PLN [76]

Eh when one (the U.S) has to spend billions to have proper pollution control and the other guy (China) spend zero and pollutes the enviroment to the point 80% of their water is unfit for animals.

So it's better to not spend any money on pollution control until our drinking water is unfit for animals as well? Short-sighted GOP bulls*hit economics.
TheOther   
17 Nov 2014
Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

Polonius3:...now in Ukrainian-occupied SE Poland.

You mean like the former German provinces of East Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania which are now "in Polish-occupied East Germany"? Are you hoping for another world war, or what is wrong with you?
TheOther   
30 Oct 2014
History / History behind Poland and Turkey's Relationship [118]

He can not change the secular system in Turkey. That is impossible.

How then was Erdogan able to get all these generals arrested? How was he able to block YouTube and Twitter in Turkey? I believe that was just the beginning; especially now that he was "elected" (cough, cough) president.