News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I already did. The detente lessened the risk of war, and made it more difficult for the SU justify their opression. Obviously Poland some did benefit more from it than others - the East Germans the most since they were in a unique position - but overall it paid off quite. Again, no miracles, but infinitely more than the previous approach. Small steps were the best way to try and change Eastern Europe for better, once it became clear after 1968 that revolutions were not realistic for now.


Reagan was smart enough to not simply go for a confrontational route, he instead offered to negotiate at every turn for which he could rely on the trust the West had gained with Eastern officials during detente. Many negotiators who were involved in the negotiations after the wall fell had gained much experience during the negotiations for the Helsinki Accords.


I am not the one who lets his bias shown by disregarding the facts. I pointed to concrete results the detente delivered which you simply choose to ignore.

History / What have the Germans hidden in Poland? [28]


Yeah now, but the treatment of it was rather appalling for the first few decades. The first time German experts were permitted to see them, quite a lot of documents had already rotten away.

At least now they are treated decently until their return to Germany in the future.

News / New "Polish memorial" in Berlin [316]


Such as?


I'd like a source on that.

News / New "Polish memorial" in Berlin [316]


Like I said, that doesn't matter as long as the government in question was the internationally recognized government.

News / New "Polish memorial" in Berlin [316]


1953 is not legally disputable. It does not matter that Poland was not a democracy at this time, treaties and declarations between dictatorships are just as legally binding. It is called international law, not law between democracies.

And of course the 2+4 treaty and the border treaty and the good neighbourhood treaty all apply since they designed to solve all outstanding issues from WWII, with the 2+4 treaty serving as a peace treaty. The only reason why the latter two were even necessary was because the signatory powers that a reunited Germany needed to reassure Polish fears and give a further guarantee on the border. This would also have been the final opportunity for Warsaw to raise the issue of reparations. Since they didn't, it was considered a closed case and thus the 2+4 treaty concluded it.

As I have pointed out a few times before, Poland's insistence on the border guarantee actually closed all options for them to later raise the issue of reparations again. Because the 2+4 treaty has one possible weakness. It only included the 4 victorious powers, not the other countries that suffered from the Nazis. Thus the other countries could technically argue that they were not sufficiently consulted and their interests not properly respected. A weak objection, but one that could possibly be made. However Poland could not do the same, since Polish objections and wishes were indeed listened to, to the satisfaction of Warsaw which Berlin could easily prove with records and the treaties.

To summarize, the case of reparations has been legally settlef and there is no way Warsaw could legally challenge it. Hence they don't use the legal way, but use it as a moral argument.


Let us be real here, that is a totally unrealistic and even somewhat anachronistic goal. Even now it is already somewhat ridiculous, that countries like the UK and France sit on this table, despite only habing a fraction of e.g. China's or the USA's population. Given the predictions in terms of economic and population growth, this disparity will only become larger with time. No doubt India will one day become a member, probably at the expense of the UK. And the French seat might hopefully become a seat for the EU, once we have a truly common security and foreign policy.


The current PiS is most likely the last one to raise this issue, simply because time is not on their side. There are still people alive from WWII, and Poland has only been part of the EU for less than a generation, not enough time to profoundly change the outlook of all its' people. This will change however inevitably. PiS will not gove up on this issue (not pressing it either of course) since it would mean losing face as long as they are in government. Once they are voted out - whenever this will happen - the new, probably PO-led government won't raise issue again, and neither will a successor government led by PiS under a new party leadership. Because by then it will have become a truly ridiculous endeavour.

News / New "Polish memorial" in Berlin [316]


I was thinking about the treaty between Poland and the GDR but that one is important too.

News / New "Polish memorial" in Berlin [316]


Indeed. The case has been long legally settled. First 1953 and then conclusively 1990/91.

PiS knows that which is why they only use this to get domestic support.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Like I said, the Hellsinki Accords, the Four Power Agreement and the Basic treaty affected millions of people, the former had influenxe everybody who lived in the Eastern Bloc.

If you are blind to understand that detente achieved something, while confrontation did not, than that is on you.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

@Ironside


I am sure the thousands of people who got their freedom thanks those efforts appreciated it, however as I pointes out the Four Power Agreement, the Basic treaty and the Helsinki Accords affected the lifes of many more for better. Meanwhile the confrontational strategy of the previous decades yielded no results at all.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


The lows you stoop to never cease to amaze me.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Oh most certainly, but they at least significantly toned down their attempts of kidnapping escaped East Germans from West Germany, and it also prevented them from too openly supporting the terrorist group RAF, fearing the bad publicity. The aim of the GDR for its' entire existence was to be recodnized as a second German state on the same footing as the FRG ( which hilariously the SU constantly undermined because they made it implicitely clear that they considered Bonn's agreement to the Oder-Neisse-border to be more important than East-Berlins). The Basic was seen as the first step, and in order to make further headway (and later for economic aid) the GDR made at least some concessions from time to time. Which again was not revolutionary, but infinitely more than what the politics of confrontation the previous decades had achieved.


Indeed, the pandemie is in general very tough on those living in border areas.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


There is some merit to that thought. The system of course did not fundamentally change, but the GDR was now more concerned about their image and toned down some of their worst behaviour or at least tried to hide it. The Helsinki Accord for example discredited the death penalty, and as a result the GDR almost completely stopped executions before it banned it outright in 1987.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Of course we did.

It was agreed upon during the negotiations for the treaty of Warsaw that some ethnic Germans who still lived in Poland were allowed to leave for the West, while conditions for those remained in Poland improved. The same happened in negotiations with the SU. The GDR stopped executing people to make a better impression on West German society for their quest for recognition, and later negotiated on channels that were established for the Basic treaty of 1972 a release of dissidents (basically selling them for money). This detente paved the way for the Four Power Agreement on Berlin, that made the life easier for those living in the divided city, and the Helsinki accords that decreased tensions in Europe and forced the SU to accept certain human rights for the first time.

Those were all remarkeable achievements that happened within a few years, compared to nothing in the preceeding 20 years or so.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


The opposite happened. The West could help a number of people in the East by dealing with Moscow.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Nothing noble about it, just realism. The West boycotted the East until the 1970s without achieving anything. The detente later decreased the risk for war and brought some concessions from which the people in Eastern Europe benefited.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


The Soviet Union had Gulags and the West did buisness with them. Its' satellite states - including Poland - had also atrocious human rights records yet we did buisness with them.

And China's economic cloud is already far greater than the Eastern Bloc's ever was. The West and particulary Europe needs to be realistic about what it can achieve and where its' interests are. Europe is not capable to meaningfully defend democracy in Asia, we have already problems doing this in our close proximity. That doesn't mean we should roll over to them and allowing them influence in our affairs, like allegedly some European countries are doing, but again lets' be realistic.

We are already doing buisness with them and have been doing so for some time. This deal will ensure that we do so on better terms now.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


That is what they are doing, but it will take time for other companies to copy the hugely complex production process. If ypu want to blame someone, blame the French for insisting that the BioNTech vaccine does not get more order than one in production by French company Sofani, or the Eastern European countries who preferred a cheaper and less dependent on cooling facilities.


This is less about caring and more about being realistic. There is nothing we can realistically do about their situation, and China is there to stay as either one of two or perhaps even the single superpower of this century in the future. Our instruments were very limited during the Cold War to make any difference in Eastern Europe, and most improvements could only be achieved after the 1960s when there was a limtied detente between East and West, with some humanitarian concessions made by the East in return for economic ties. But then again, the economic balance of power was back then far more in the Wests' favour. Furthermore Europe's post-Covid recovery will also depend on ties with China, and this deal will greatly help with that.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Not really, it is basically the bare minimum to prevent a hard Brexit and even with it there'll soon be consequences once British companies run out of stock, with trucks now needing more time for delivery. For that they had to make significant concessions, like a border to Iriland. But as you say:


Most of the consequences of Brexit will be not immediate and drastic. More of a slow decline, with less foreign investments, economic growth and the continued decline of influence on European affairs.

What I am personally interested is how "Global Britain" will fare with their trade deals compared to the EU.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

Nobody ever said it was impossible to leave the EU, just that it was impossible to leave and still maintain the same privileges, which turned out to be true.


Indeed, Europe owes a debt of gratitude to the Brits. Brexit now serves as a warning and thus made leaving the EU less appealing which is why e.g. Marie le Pen dropped Frexit from her platform.

News / Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment? [540]

Always funny what kind of sinister plans people interpret into a decidion that was based on an irrational fear against nuclear energy. You are giving us too much credit here.

News / Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment? [540]

Because again, this pipeline undermines Poland's status as a transit country, costing Poland potential transit fees.

Hungary is happy for the same reason, because it now suddenly became a transit country.

News / Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment? [540]

Crow, are you really that stupid? That pipe line is an attempt of Russia to diversify its' pipe line network and make it less relient on transit countries like Poland and the Ukraine. Thus you won't find anyone in Poland who'd be happy about this.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


They are in Germany illegally, or specifically the crossed the border illegally. Every refugee who crossed the border on foot usually signs a waver acknowledging this before they apply for asylum. But the right for asylum trumps any possible border violation, just as no hospital can turn you away because you parked in front of a fire hydrant.

Life / Vandalism in Poland: Has it always been this way? [80]


Just another proof how deeply irrational homophobia is.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I just did that several times now. Merkel had the choice between two options, and she chose the one that would be less harmful to Germamy's interests in the long run.


It was a good decision given the circumstances and one can proudly look back to in the future.


Very true, everybody not in Southern Europe was willing to ignore the issue for years, until it came knocking in 2015. Merkel was briefed by the German secret service in 2015 that the refugees might upset the fragile peace in the Balkans. Not exactly something many would like to risk.


That is more or less what is being done with the new arrivals now.


Your ignorance is truly staggering. If you close the border for refugees you will need controls which of course will also heavily affect the traffic with goods. This scenario has been discussed a few times at the Brenner pass at the border between Austria and Italy, the costs would have been in the billions for each month.

themeditelegraph.com/en/transport/road-rail-air-transport/2016/04/12/news/closing-the-brenner-pass-costs-140-billion-1.38162554

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Nobody in Germany in a leading position said this as justification as to why Germany did not close the borders in 2015. If anything this was said as to why Germany might be able to integrate the refugees into the work force - which as the link showed turned out to be true. Merkel always justified her decision as necessary for stabilizing Southern Europe and preserving freedom of movement and the EU.


Another quote never said by Merkel and others in the context that is often implied. It is a fact that most refugees, particulary from Syria, are above avarage qualified, with a particulary high amount of doctors among them (again relative to their country) but compared to European societies those are rather low. During the Covid crises, quite a few German hospitals were glad to have qualified people from Syria though.


Young men are refugees like any other people too, particulary in Civil Wars like Syria.


Sarrazin helped pointing out some of the problems with Germany's integration system, particulary the difficulties for refugees from non-European countries to integrate. It his partly thanks to him that many reforms had been made, including language courses from day one and less restrictions on finding work. By the 2nd book however he went off the deep end, and started spouting a lot of racist antisemitic stuff.


A right-wing conspiracy nut-job who used to be a reapected journalist, but who eventually only published in the German Kopp Verlag (the one for Hitler apologists and alien believers).


A mistake implies that there was a better option available. Merkel had to choose in 2015 between

A) Close the borders, disrupting trade and causing economic harm to Germany and risking the destabilization of Southern Europe and the Balkans, with the EU's future in question

or B) letting the refugees in, knowing that Germany was capable of dealing with the refugees (and as a Bonus, staying true to her Christian conscious as a parish daughter).

B was in every way the better option. Humanitarian issues aside, preserving the EU is Germany's vital interest.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Yes it is. Those have had a lot of desire, considering the difficulties of finding work despite not knowing the language or having sufficient qualifications, which also means that those who so far failed must not have necessary lacked desire to find work. But it is good to know that you have changed your views on refugees for the better.


It would have been a mistake if Germany's motivation for accepting refugees in 2015 had been economic in nature, which you apparantly believe, but that was never the case. Germany decided to not close the borders in an effort to prevent the refugee crisis from destabilizing Southern Europe and the Balkans, which would have happened if the refugees already stranded in Italy or the Balkans had been confined there. Merkel has since 2009 tirelessly worked to keep the EU afloat and 2015 was but one of the many measures taken by her. Yeah, taking the refugees was costly - but humanitarian reasons aside - watching Southern Europe collapse under the strain with a possible end to the freedom of movement or an end to the EU would have been much, much worse.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

Rich really likes to ask stupid questions.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Indeed, that is a pretty good result given the challenges. But what interests me more, will you now stop claiming that most of them have no desire to work?


No worries, we will share them with you in time ;)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Skill maybe, but most of them desire work and had been increasingly succesful in doing so until the Pandemie hit.

google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/germany-half-of-refugees-find-jobs-within-five-years/a-52251414


No, just register their names and finger prints in an international data bank to make sure that they can not apply for asylum elsewhere and there won't be any issues with that.