News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]

The fact that you keep using "Jewish" to describe someone as if it's some sort of inferior race suggests that the only "moron" is you.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


So, you're refusing to comment because it was published in Gazeta Wyborcza?

What a surprise - any excuse.


Indeed. The fact that they constantly denounce it means that there must be something of substance there - otherwise they'd just ignore it.


I take it you missed the part where Walesa embraced the free market.


Or could it be that they refused to back 'workers' with no interest apart from securing high salaries and pensions for themselves, along with working as little as possible for the highest possible reward?


Ah, the jealousy is strong! Then again, I suppose Michnik and friends never ran away to the USA, unlike others.


Yes, you're right. Hopefully, these idiots will realise that Gazeta Polska and the like are manipulating them soon. I doubt though - as you say, there's no hope.


I see none of the usual NASZA POLSKA POLSKA KOSCIOL NASZA POLSKA ANTI HOMO POLSKA crowd have commented on the article yet.


Uh - Agora is publicly traded. I hardly think all the owners are "jewish communists".

An open question : does anyone actually know any Jewish Communists?

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]

Hahahahaa, thank you!

I always use "can you pick up some fags on the way home please?" with my students :)

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


This is exactly what the problem is with the Church - it seems completely unable to deal with issues like this. The Episcopate itself cannot decide to keep out of politics - so what hope is there for the ordinary priests?


Yup. While we have to accept that priests are only human - someone should have said "hey, no!" before the whole project started. The fact that the priest in charge of the project has repeatedly declined to say how much it costs says it all.


I think this is really all Poland's own fault in a way - they totally failed to put a time limit on such claims - and now that the land is worth something, suddenly it's all being claimed.

I'm not a huge fan of the SLD, but I thoroughly support their call for a proper investigation into many of these claims.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


The problem is where the attacks have merit. Look at Poznan - the Church here has committed two massive mistakes within a year. First of all, they tried to kick out a public school from a building that they "reclaimed" - and now they're trying to claim 95 million zloty for parcels of land near Lake Malta - land which was already subject to an agreement between the City and Church.

These two incidents are the tip of the iceberg - and this the problem.


Or could it be that their readership doesn't believe in the all-reaching, all-emcompassing power of the Church? Could it be that the newspaper is run by people who didn't want to replace the dictatorship of Communism with a dictatorship of the Church?

The article isn't an attack by Gazeta Wyborcza - instead, it's probably one of the few outlets that could carry such a story with a degree of credibility. Unless of course, you subscribe to the belief that the Church should not be questioned - ever.


You might want to ask yourself why opponents of Gazeta Wyborcza pick on their every move with the same mindless aggression. Perhaps you might also want to question why the lower elements of society tend to attack Germans and Russians with venom, while other people have moved on. Exactly the same situation.


If anything, it's an attack on the way that the Church has failed to adapt in Poland. Really, all the priest has done is say publicly what everyone is thinking - that it's an institution in crisis.


Ex communist newspaper? Do you need reminded again that the editor in chief was locked up for several years by the communists? Nah...doesn't suit your agenda to admit that, does it?


The problem isn't with the hundreds of shelters, but rather where the money comes from to fund such shelters. Don't forget, the Church enjoys quite a few concessions - what's a few shelters to fund when you've already looted the country for billions?

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Soulless? Soulless is donating money to fund some giant grotesque statue - while letting people die of the cold.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


The problem is that the Church does a hell of a lot of good in Poland as well - but all the good work is ruined by the minority.


This isn't an attack on the church to begin with, so why call it that?

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]

It's a very interesting letter - and pretty much makes it clear that if the Polish church doesn't watch itself, they'll end up destroying themselves - just as they've done in Spain and Italy.


Calling Polonius3, Sokrates and all the dumb American Polacks - where are you?

But of course they won't mention it - the nationalists will have convinced themselves already that Wiesniewski is some sort of traitor.

Work / Favourite English textbook (to learn/teach from)? [13]


Thanks - I need a new CPE book with a class of mine. They started off originally using CPE Gold, but it's so mindblowingly dull!


I like the way it's done, but some of it is rather poor in my opinion.


I totally, completely agree with you. I found one good book - it's called English for Promotion, written specifically for the Polish market. It's a bit dated now (it mentions Ireland being a success story) - but as a book which focuses on business promotion through sales, advertising, etc - it's rather good. It's also quite clever in the way that it introduces general business vocabulary while being about one topic in particular.

One huge problem with Business ESP books in general is that what's relevant to the UK/US sometimes just isn't relevant here at all. I'm fond of a book called Business Handbook (Advanced) though - it goes into a decent amount of detail and has fairly interesting exercises.

Food / Is brain-damaging vegan fad growing in Poland? [176]


So why is the biggest Conservative I know a vegetarian? Why is it very fashionable among middle class kids who like nothing more than saying "mummy and daddy bought me a horse so I can ride well away from those nasty black people"?

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


So - are you now submitting to the authority of the Prime Minister when it comes to this investigation? Good. It's nice to see that you actually recognise the authority of this country's representatives. Now, why have you spent the last 8 months trying to argue against their authority, only to accept it now?

As I said all along - the Poles will do the right thing.

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]


Because it's "Ponglish".

Vile!

But endlessly fascinating too. If some Polack wants to mix English and Polish when speaking, why not? Means her language is "alive".

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]


Perfect Polish? I have my doubts, racist.

You probably speak gutter Polish, as spoken by peasants.

(for what it's worth, why would it bother me? I didn't grow up with people speaking Polish around me)

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

Oh, in terms of colour, of course it ended up that way. But I mean - more that there isn't much in the way of one Polish heritage - it's all a complete mix. You can see this here quite clearly - some families have Eastern traditions, others have Germanic traditions - it's not all the same thing.

Wasn't there a fuss over the American Polonia wearing the "wrong" clothes?

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]


Do you know what your heritage actually is?

There is no such thing as "Polish" heritage, as the country has been a melting pot of nationalities and traditions for countless centuries.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


Ukraine has plenty of culture. It's a shame that someone like you is so backwards (and obviously, the child of peasants that ran away to America - are your parents actually legally there?) that you can't appreciate it.

Then again, I've been there several times - when was the last time you were there?

No sovereignty? They've got plenty of it. Perhaps you might want to examine their current President's actual foreign policy rather than what's reported in the English press.

No money? I saw plenty of money going around in L'viv two months ago. Where's YOUR Mercedes, peasant?

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


But - why on earth did Poland believe it in the first place? I still cannot comprehend why Poland trusted an ally which had a Prime Minister that didn't want war with Hitler.

Can't comment for France, but the UK quite clearly was trying to avoid any sort of fight with Germany.


Sure, I think it's fairly well documented that Germany didn't have the capability to fight a two-front war.

Have you ever considered that perhaps, France and the UK (and the USA too, probably) wanted Germany and the Soviet Union to smash each other to pieces? Poland was unfortunately in the middle - and I think the British attitude (at least) towards Poland, ever since WWI was that Poland was a pain in the ass and not worth fighting for. I'm not even convinced that Britain was particularly keen on an independent Poland.

At least from the evidence (Versailles, Munich Agreement, Yalta) - I've never thought that Britain cared much about Poland at that time. There was a lot of lip service paid to Poland, but generally, not much in the way of actions.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


So - you're telling me that the Polish forces didn't withdraw to that area near Lwów before the Russians invaded?

Poland was beaten the moment it became obvious that the UK/French forces had no intention of seriously engaging Germany. With a traditional army, they had no chance of surviving.


But the border between Germany and Poland was flat, fertile grounds - perfect for invading. Poland also had a hell of an indefensible border with Germany. So - anyone with sense should have seen that the situation was hopeless in terms of traditional defence.


What's not obvious about the Munich Agreement and the British apathy towards another war? All common, public knowledge at the time.


Seemed to work fine for the Chinese against the Japanese in WWII. And - the sheer effort required to actually exterminate Poland by the Germans would have required manpower well in excess of what they actually had available. And yet again - I make the point that the Soviets would not have invaded a country that wasn't beaten. Stalin was a smart guy - he wouldn't commit considerable resources into fighting a guerilla war against Poland. He'd have done what he always did and simply wait for the best moment for him.


By looking at a map and looking at who was unfriendly towards Poland. Lithuanians, Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and Czechoslovaks all hated Poles.


Their view is clouded by Poland's actions between 1919 and 1939. Or do you need reminding about the annexation of Lithuanian and Czech territory?

Ukrainians had no army, but can you imagine the UPA on the Polish side? Would've certainly helped a great deal to have some savage, brutal murderers on the Polish side with no care or worry about what they did.

(but alas, Poland lost that by betraying them)

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


At that time, public opinion didn't support it. The leader of the country wasn't particularly bothered either. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked to discover that the British wanted the Germans and Soviets to murder each other senseless, leaving the UK alone. Not bothering to help Poland was almost certainly a result of people simply not wanting anything to do with helping some "far away country of which we know nothing".


It certainly is an interesting "what-if" scenario - how would the disciplined Germans deal with wild Poles who think nothing about murdering anyone German? Poland would have been occupied in 2-3 days - but equally so, there would be a huge amount of people who were armed and trained, just waiting to murder the first Germans they see.

Do you really think that the Germans would have been strong enough mentally to deal with it? They would have been promised a swift, decisive victory - not a war in which they were fighting only what appears to be civilians.


Ah, typical Polish view - "omg, how could we consider going into alliance with LITHUANIANS. And Czechoslovaks, no way! AND UKRAINIANS?! NO ******* WAY".

I'd say that Poland couldn't have done any worse in WWII.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


But by 1939, Poland was way behind Germany. She also didn't have the numerical advantage of Russia.


Competing with one power isn't enough when you're surrounded by enemies - and even with the problem of enemies from within.


Are you denying that the whole "Western Betrayal" thing was propogated by the Communists? If so, it shows that you're just like many others - brainwashed by communism, even to the point of denial.


And? Poland shouldn't have relied on allies who frankly were far more interested in themselves than Poland. It hardly takes a genius to work out that after the Munich Agreement, the UK and France were more interested in leaving Germany to it than bothering to fight Germany.


You assume that the Russians would even want to invade a country where Germans were being killed indiscriminately with no clear army command to go after. Bear in mind that history shows guerilla warfare to be terribly effective in terms of causing havoc among the enemy.

The Russians only invaded once it was obvious that Poland had lost, anyway.


Strategic sense would have dictated looking at Poland's isolation and realising that the only country that could help Poland was Poland. I really, really, really cannot figure out why Poland placed so much emphasis on help on two countries that had previously shown mass indifference towards Poland and her independence.

For what it's worth, the whole "western betrayal" thing seems to be a big excuse for Poland's poor performance in WWII.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


But they certainly could have allowed belief in divine intervention to cloud their thinking. The fact that they choose to fight the Germans man to man says a lot about their overconfidence at the time.


It wasn't stupidity, just naivety.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


Perhaps your countrymen should have been more aware of this fact afterwards. The fact that it's even called "The Miracle at the Vistula" says a lot.

I don't disagree with it, I don't see any "miracle" - I see an overconfident Red Army which got it all wrong - along with a Polish army which got it right exactly when they needed to. A perfect storm, perhaps. Either way, it was a great victory - probably one of the more underappreciated victories in European history, but still one that's worthy of respect.

But - I don't think the devoutly Catholic population of Poland in the 1920's saw it for what it was, instead choosing to believe divine intervention. And that was fatal.


It's not hard to see that Poland had a high opinion of her army in the 20's and 30's. The same army was more or less routed within days by the German one - so that says "overconfidence" to me.


Approve? On a military level, it was fair game. I don't buy all the nonsense about "humane treatment of prisoners" and so on - war is war, and it should be won by any means necessary. If you need to murder 22,000 of the best to psychologically damage the country, then so be it.

On a personal, ethical level, it was disgusting. There was absolutely no need to murder those people - detention in Siberia would have been enough.


Fair enough. Either way, it was a hell of a war crime.


The smart part was the whole process. Not only was it used to symbolically knock the stuffing out of Poland, but then it was used repeatedly to hurt the Poles even more in the decades to come.

But of course it was tried before - the Americans did quite a bit of it with the Indians, and the Spanish weren't adverse to it either.


It was the crime that Poles obsess about to this day - so as far as I can see, the general population does indeed regard it as the greatest Soviet crime ever. Perhaps historians can argue about it, but in terms of sheer psychological harm - Katyn wins. Smolensk just added to that.


The whole "Western Betrayal" thing is interesting, because the Communist propoganda was responsible for really hammering it home. Anyway, Poland should have known better than to rely on allies who were located nowhere near them and had no realistic way of getting to them. Their problem, ultimately.


The actual result? Perhaps look at the way that Poland is quite literally obsessed with Katyn. The same obsession isn't there with Bandera, despite him managing to even out-do the Soviets when it came to unrestrained brutality.


No. What Poland should have done was pour what little money there was into ensuring that every man and woman in Poland was capable of fighting a guerilla war against any invader. They should have also formed alliances with Czechoslovakia and Lithuania, and crucially, looked after the Ukrainian minority properly. Poland in this circumstance would have been far more equipped to fight Germany - especially if the doctrine called for the murder of any German in Poland during war.

But - I appreciate that the nationalist 20's/30's would have prevented any sort of sensible process like this. Was hardly unique to Poland, though.


No surprise there.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


War crimes are fundamentally military actions. The action was carried out by the Red Army, and thus, was a military action. Defenceless or not - it was a military operation designed to ensure that Poland wouldn't be able to resist in future.

A tactic is a tactic. In this case, it was an exceptionally smart tactic. It wasn't honourable, brave or in anyway ethical, but it worked. In fact, the psychological harm is still felt today.


But Katyn was the event that knocked the wind out of Poland. Of course, Poland had much more - but the breathtaking cynicalness of Katyn was all it took to really hurt Poland in the decades to come.


It was substantial enough for Poland to still feel the after effects to this day.

Incidentally, the underground efforts (Warsaw rising excluded) really showed how devastating Poland would have been at fighting a full-on guerilla war against Germany. I was reading just earlier how effective they were at murdering German leaders, for instance. I question whether the Soviet Union would have dared to invade a Poland where they couldn't even identify the enemy - Stalin was a great opportunist, but would he have wanted the hassle of trying to fight a guerilla war against Poland?

I still blame the Miracle at the Vistula for Poland's overconfidence and subsequent humiliation.

I really only wish that Poland and Russia could sit down, open their archives together and present an honest overview of what actually happened during WWII.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


It was a fantastic military tactic in terms of neutralising the Polish State and more or less ensuring that it had the heart ripped out of it. Exactly what Stalin wanted to achieve - and they managed it. The fact that for the next 50 years, Poland was under Soviet dominance suggests that yes, it was a fantastic tactic. It certainly was devastatingly effective - or do you wish to argue this, as well?

As a war crime, Katyn was probably one of the most effective ones in history. Certainly, it was far more effective than actions such as at Srebenica.


It didn't work - in fact, it was counter-productive, because it led to the formation of a Jewish state that is now armed to the teeth and is exceptionally well trained. Even the obsession with the Holocaust probably didn't help the German cause in WW2 - especially when there is documented evidence of Polish Jews initially supporting the Germans.

Katyn on the other hand was a bodyblow to Poland.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


Uh, what has some idiot Rabbi in the West Bank got to do with military tactics during WWII?

Unless of course, you're doing the usual Polish thing of arguing for the sake of arguing.

Not sure how you can argue about the effectiveness of killing the Polish elite, though.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


I don't know why anyone pretends otherwise - it was in Hitler and Stalin's best interest to wipe them out.

As a military tactic, it was fantastic.

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that if the chance arose for revenge, Poles would murder the Russian intelligensia without a second thought.

Travel / Best place to exchange money in Poland? [98]


That's really interesting, thanks :)

Travel / Best place to exchange money in Poland? [98]


Why not?

Life / The Polish Wedding - What is it Like in Poland? [338]


It's only important with villagers.

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

Well, I was reading somewhere about the Scottish people that came to Poland in the past - Napier is quite a well known name, certainly a name of some prominence - and there were plenty of prominent Scots here several centuries ago.