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What do Poles think about Turks?


Jukrek - | 58
23 May 2008 #151
Marek

Typical American post.

The Turkish question is more complicated. There is again that 'little' issue of the still officially denied Massacre of the Armenians....solely because they were Christians who did not accept Islam.

iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php

JERUSALEM: Orthodox Jews set fire to hundreds of copies of the New Testament in the latest act of violence against Christian missionaries in the Holy Land.

Or Yehuda Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon said missionaries recently entered a neighborhood in the predominantly religious town of 34,000 in central Israel, distributing hundreds of New Testaments and missionary material.

Earlier this year, the teenage son of a prominent Christian missionary was seriously wounded when a package bomb delivered to the family's West Bank home went off in his hands.

Last year, arsonists burst into a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews and set the building on fire, raising suspicions that Jewish extremists were behind the attack. No one claimed responsibility, but the same church was burned down 25 years ago by ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists.

21st century ...

of course you are not going to find such articles in American press. :)
Marek 4 | 867
23 May 2008 #152
It's not a case of US/Western vs. 'foreign'-non-Western, press, but rather of truth vs. fiction.

I too am aware of local TV news distortions or omissions. No journal or report is immune from the influence of political bias. I read the Polish news on occasion in order to keep myself abreast of current events, and in the original Polish!! Do you read English so well that you can sense distortion in reportage??

Incidentally, the excerpts you've cleverly extracted are probably out of context. It is a known fact that Jewish anti-Christian sentiment, once more prevalent than it is now, was a direct result of centuries-old Christ-killer myths being disseminated across Europe and elsewhere. Everyone knows that the Romans wanted Christ killed. Pontius Pilate, by the way, was not Jewish. LOL

If your clippings are true, I'd be the first to say that wanton violence never justifies violence. Self defense though, is another thing entirely, hence, the need for context.

Arab anti-Jewish sentiment is merely based on incorrect readings of history, not to mention incorrect interpretations of the Koran, in which some see ALL outsiders as Infidels of Allah who must be destroyed. Enlightened minds, among them Muslim clerics, will gladly tell you that this is dangerous nonsense!!

Finally, the Jews have never had a deliberate policy of extermination of non-Jews. This can be confirmed in all sources as a matter of historical and public record.
Jukrek - | 58
23 May 2008 #153
It's not a case of US/Western vs. 'foreign'-non-Western, press, but rather truth vs. fiction.

It is British article. I am not telling stories about false "west"

I've noticed that when you don't have arguments you try to show that opponent in debate "don't speak English" -:)

How would you call this bible burning in Israel ? How would you call this boy who received bomb just because he was Christian ?

after your edit. don't be so defensive.
Marek 4 | 867
23 May 2008 #154
'Just because he was Christian?'.....

And how about Jassir Arafat's continued war against Israel? Just because Israel is populated by Jews??

One wrongful act hardy justifies another.
Why do I bring up English knowledge when challenged? Simply because non-native speakers such as yourself commonly make mistakes in their attempt to impress English speakers with the calibre of their English.

Humility (skromność) is needed. Conversely, I'd hardly be so arrogantly self confident were I posting only in Polish.
Jukrek - | 58
23 May 2008 #155
Why do I bring up English knowledge when challenged? Simply because non-native speakers such as yourself commonly make mistakes in their attempt to impress English speakers with the caliber of their English

you are simple wrong -:) Lets leave language ...

'Just because he was Christian?'.....And how about Jassir Arafat's continued war against Israel? Just because Israel is populated by Jews??

So Jassir Arafat wanted to kill Jews. That is why Israelis burn Christian books and bomb Christian missionaries ?
southern 75 | 7,096
23 May 2008 #156
Now I understood what Poles think about Turks.
Guest
23 May 2008 #157
There is again that 'little' issue of the still officially denied Massacre of the Armenians....solely because they were Christians who did not accept Islam. -:)-:)

I am the Türk who wrote the 118th post and the others stated in the 118th post.

The issue you want us to accept is genocide, not massacre.Some westerns want us to accept that we did the same thing what Hitler did to jews in Armenian issue.In France, saying "no genocide" is banned even if the sayer is a historician or a political party leader.Can you imagine that?Also, in that events, Armenians attacked unarmed Turkish people, even when Ottoman army was in the WW1.They want freedom, nobody gives freedom to others in Europe, too.Look at Samis, look at Helvetians, look at Valons, look at Basque people, look at IRA bla bla bla.Anyway, for the sake of creating Great Armenia, if you start to kill Turks or other muslims, they will of course have a response, too.But, i mean the paramilitary folk people, gangs.Armenians had gangs, too.Before, that events, Armenians were too rich with the gold trade etc. while Türks were peasant and just soldier.Ottoman officers decided to exile them to Syria, but there was not enough security for them.Some gangs attacked them in the voyage, epidemic invasions were not cut due to the lack of enough health measures, officer didn't make their duty well, but the country was in the WW1.I am a grandson and an eyewitness of the people who saw what cruelties which Armenians did against unarmed Türks.So, we have own stories, too.In that era, there were some racist attitudes, too.Actors were not just the Türks.You don't know what Bulgars, Greeks did to Türks in Balkans.You don't know and don't want to know their pains, too.But, i don't accuse any nation particularly with racism.Because, human is human everywhere and in all eras, nations have some similar thoughts, ideologies.In that era, racism was stronger.But, we can't be the only victim of racism during the WW1 history.The point we don't and won't accept is this double-standard.Armenians were racist, too against us.They still use Mountain Ağrı(currently inside the Turkish borders) as an anthem.Get it?Yeah, there were massacres like in everywhere, sometimes against us, sometimes by us but we have never did a systematic genocide like Hitler did against Jews.They want us to accept genocide, not massacre.And i wonder what holocausts Jews did against Germans before Hitler?How can we be put in the same cathegory with Germany?Also, most of the studies made by Armenians depends on oral sources, some are exaggerated and all of them ignore what they did against us while poor Armenia inhabitants are suffering in Armenia, now.In Armenia, almost everything they use are our products, they come to İstanbul to work with illegal ways.And why France is not wanted to genocide against Algerians, or Sweden against Samis, China against Uyghurs, USSR against Crimean Tatars etc.?Those are all systematic genocides even if the victims had no sin.Finally, we have never had problems with non muslims as a nation.I don't care what other muslim countries think about this matter.It is really too ridiculous to link this issue with religion; this is the indicator of the ignorance about Turkish society and Turkish state tradition.
southern 75 | 7,096
23 May 2008 #158
is genocide, not massacre

The killing of all armenian population in Turkey(500000) can be described as genocide.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
Marek 4 | 867
24 May 2008 #159
Guest!

Long prior to the Shoah, Hitler was known to have remarked to a close aide when asked if such an act as what we now call 'The Holocaust' would be permissable. His response: 'But who remembers Armenia?', i.e. the Turkish genocide of millions of Armenian Christians!!

One of our great short story writers William Saroyan, wrote lyrically, yet with pathos, about this time.

This is not a slight against Turkish culture or the Turkish people as a nation, merely a statement concerning an extremely horrible period on their history! I'm presently studying Turkish! I also love German and Polish, aware as I am of the horrendous anti-semitism, not to mention plain xenophobia, of both countries!

A parting thought: Do we as free people want to be saying to future generation: 'Who remembers Auschwitz'?
Jukrek - | 58
24 May 2008 #160
Marek wake up !

Israelis burn books. Israelis kill kids because they are christsians. Israelis hold paletinians in gettos. Israelis have one of the most segregated countries. one of the last countries with apperthaid.

iht/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php

Earlier this year, the teenage son of a prominent Christian missionary was seriously wounded when a package bomb delivered to the family's West Bank home went off in his hands.

Last year, arsonists burst into a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews and set the building on fire, raising suspicions that Jewish extremists were behind the attack. No one claimed responsibility, but the same church was burned down 25 years ago by ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists.

-

guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

An Israeli minister today warned of increasingly bitter conflict in the Gaza Strip, saying the Palestinians could bring on themselves what he called a "holocaust".

Palestinans are complicated issue. Why a hell they burn new testemant on streets. Why they bomb christians.
Marek 4 | 867
24 May 2008 #161
Jukrek,

Enlighten yourself! By the way, what precisely did you mean by 'Leave language'?? Are you translating from Polish? You may e-mail me privately at panlech31#yahoo, if it's easier. I appreciate that you all are so eager to polish your English skills!! -:) LOL
southern 75 | 7,096
24 May 2008 #162
Israelis burn books. Israelis kill kids because they are Christians. Israelis hold Palestinians in ghettos. Israelis have one of the most segregated countries.

Leave the Israelis in peace.This topic is about Turks.There are dozens of topics about Jews in PF,you can write there if you want.
Socrates - | 20
24 May 2008 #163
When you hate Turks, you hate Greeks. :(
We are like brothers it is one blood and two countries.
It is like realtionship between Russians and Poles.

Greatings form Greece ! I hope you love Turkey !
Marek 4 | 867
24 May 2008 #164
I think, in fact I know, we've veered far off the original topic of why are Turks the subject of such animosity throughout much of Europe today.

Actually, who hates period, hates all people. Bigotry knows no boundries of reason. Therefore, yes, who hates Turks also hates Greeks, black Africans, Gypsies, Jews etc... , all the convenient scapegoats of history.

The moral here: Hatred never stops with one group. That's the shameful part about it!!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,159
24 May 2008 #165
Actually, who hates period, hates all people

Crap!

It's the same as lefties screaming "xenophobe" if someone expresses his dislike about one special group.
It's a stupid multikulti argument and doesn't wash...
(Especially if the dislike is concentrated on a group of immigrants belonging to a special people - not the people in their own country).

...but that might be to much of a differentiation for a lefty multikulti tree hugger!

PS:The wish for differentiation between groups of peoples (tribes if you so want) as in "my people" and "your people" is totally natural and healthy.

Didn't show the Jews the world since nearly 2000 years how it's done? Never fully assimiliating, always staying Jews? Apart from their host people...always wanting to beware their specialties? I admire them for that...

Where ethnics mix frictions appear, that's also only natural!
southern 75 | 7,096
24 May 2008 #166
When you hate Turks

Everybody in Balkans hates Turks(except Albanians). Guess why.

We are like brothers

Seldom a Greek fighting a Turk thought that he fights against his brother.

one blood and two countries

You mean the Yenitsari who were forced to become Muslims after being kidnapped from their families?Or the Greeks in western coast of Asia Minor who became islamized?

It is like relationship between Russians and Poles.

No way.They are both Slavs.Greeks feel a lot closer to Slavs than to Turks.In fact everyone in Balkans denies any relationship to Turks.It is considered to be a disgrace.

Greetings form Greece !

No way you are Greek.Unless you happen to stay now for vacation.

I hope you love Turkey !

Why do you hope?Turks have built absolutely nothing the 500 years they occupied Balkans.They turned the region which was developed before they appeared into a backwards region centuries behind other European nations.Due to Turks Renaissance and industrial Revolution never reached Balkans.Every bad trait in region is attributed to Turkish occupation.So why be grateful?
Marek 4 | 867
24 May 2008 #167
It is a fact that the state of Osman Turkey was superior even to the empires of Great Britain. When you assert that Turkey has done nothing for 500 years, you assert plain and simple nonsense! How do you measure your opposing standard of 'something'? Are you measuring against Western or Osman standards? While it is true that the state of Turkey's economy was for decades lagging far behind Germany, Britain or Scandinavia, don't forget either that all of Western Europe was not on an equal economic playing field. Take Ireland thirty years ago. It was the poorest nation in Western Europe and look at Ireland today; The Celtic Tiger.

As far as 'multi-culti' (spelled with a 'c' in English-:)LOL) arguments, I'm interested in how one might intelligently debate what I've said thus far. All I've heard is right-wing raving!!

I will confess though that immigration is still a most important issue in our society. Scapegoating one or more groups in frustration and anger however, is hardly the solution.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,159
24 May 2008 #168
I prefer "mulitkulti"...it has become a swear word in Germany!
Socrates - | 20
24 May 2008 #169
Southern for Far-Wing Slavonic nationalists we are Turks. It is partly true. Have you seen Poles ? Tall, well build, blue eyes. We are not slavonic nation.

Greeks are similar to Turks and it looks strange when Greek talks about Turks like you do.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,159
24 May 2008 #170
Scapegoating one or more groups in frustration and anger however, is hardly the solution.

"Scapegoating" as you call it is the first step in voicing that the rosy multikulti globalization is not that rosy nor the only way.

The end will not be a happy race mixing with resulting in some beige colored undifferentiated masses but rather the contrary is happening.

Many people won't accept to become strangers in their own land...and as long this question isn't adressed other than with: "Get used to it you racist" more violence is looming on the horizon.

(Maybe not tomorrow since most people are still living fairly well but maybe next week...)
southern 75 | 7,096
24 May 2008 #171
that the state of Osman Turkey was superior even to the empires of Great Britain

In what sense?

When you assert that Turkey has done nothing for 500 years, you assert plain and simple nonsense! How do you measure your opposing standard of 'something'

Meaning civilization.What monuments did it build,what kind of education did it offer,how much progress in science did it make.

Are you measuring against Western or Osman standards?

I know that by Osman standards they did excellent since they reached an unbeatable degree of laziness.
Marek 4 | 867
24 May 2008 #172
Civilization?? One man's 'civilization' is another's barbarism. Hitler and the Nazis thought themselves the ultimate in Germanic world civilization. Von Ribbentrop even considered himself one of the 'Kulturdeutsche' (cultured Germans). Civilized??? The very thought begs the question.

Furthermore, let's distinguish between a 'civilized', 'cultured'/'cultivated' and 'enlightened' people. In addition, Southern, The Nazis took science, research and cinematography, for example to new, undreamed of heights....but to what end?
southern 75 | 7,096
24 May 2008 #173
The Nazis took science, research and cinematography, for example to new, undreamed of heights....

I cannot say the same for Turks.
Marek 4 | 867
24 May 2008 #175
'I cannot say the same for the Turks.'

If what the Nazis called 'civilization' is for whatever earthly reason, your cup of tea, you can keep it, thank you very much!!

A civilized society is a heck of a great deal more than merely daily sanitation, flush toilets, solid, dependable infrastructure and all the creature comforts afforded a push-button technology. The Nazis may have been 'civilized' by the latter definition, they were HARDLY 'enlightened'.

There can be little disagreement there.
southern 75 | 7,096
24 May 2008 #178
I prefer a civilized society to a turkish society.
vodka 1 | 38
24 May 2008 #179
Turks are good and decent people. That is what Polish people think about them.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 May 2008 #180
I had a kebab today and it was SUPERB


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