What do Poles owe to Jews?

You are the one who has only offered us the Polish name of the work the alleged quote is supposedly taken from. I wonder why you have failed to provide us with the name of the English version of the work.


So show us where he wrote the words "The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews." At the moment you have only showed us a translation of claim made by somebody else in Polish that Gross said in Polish something like that: show us where the fluent English-speaker Gross wrote "The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews." Or can you very simply not show us that because Gross never wrote those words?


Of course it does. Just as it also involved the opposite of such elements, for example the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army at the beginning of September 1939. I have never denied that some Jews were unwilling to integrate and that some Jews were communists or that some Jews showed no loyalty to the Polish state. However, some people here try to deny that some Jews did want to integrate and that some Jews did show loyalty to the Polish state (the percentage of Jews in the Polish army matched the percentage of Jews in the Polish population as a whole): some people try to claim that all Jews greeted the Red Army with joy. Some posters refuse to give to Jews what all Poles owe to Jews (and what all Jews owe to Poles): the duty to tell the whole truth.

OK, Harry, one by one.
- Considering that the Polish army relied on conscript, this 100,000 number is hardly an evidence of any loyalty.
- The word "some" is (arguably intentionally) misleading. The unwillingness to integrate was a predominant trend, mandated by cultural factors that are visible even among present day Jews (consider, for example, the staunch opposition to inter-faith marriages expressed by rabbis, extrapolate this to the times when rabbis held absolute religious and substantial civil authority).

- The same criticism applies to your statement that "some Jews were communists or that some Jews showed no loyalty to the Polish state". It wasn't just "some". Jews constituted about 50% of the KomPartia in pre-war Poland, and this is not a statistical outlier. The trend continued until the Jewish faction within the Party lost the internal power struggle in 1968 (after which they mostly emigrated and found new occupations as denouncers of Polish anti-semitism, by the way). The trend was also visible among the early Bolsheviks, see, for example the dispatches by Capt. Schuyler from the U.S. expeditionary forces in Siberia (be warned, these dispatches are VERY politically incorrect).

- The statement that "some Jews did want to integrate and that some Jews did show loyalty" is absolutely true, on the other hand, and the word "some" is used correctly. There were such prominent examples as mathematicians Tarsk and Ulami, or Artur Rubinstein. The existence of such examples show that the Polish society made the integration possible, and if other Jews didn't integrate, it was primarily attributable to their choices and to the pressure of their own ethnic group.

- "the percentage of Jews in the Polish army matched the percentage of Jews in the Polish population as a whole"- again, when the army is conscripted, I expect nothing else. But you know, why don't you look at the pictures of the war cemeteries in Normandy and attempt a statistical sampling of Stars of David among crosses? You may like neither the result nor the conclusion...

- "some people try to claim that all Jews greeted the Red Army with joy" - you can always find people expressing fringe views, but while correctly dismissing them as fringe, the opposite side wants to also conveniently sweep under the carpet the true statement that the support for the invading Soviets was substantial among Jews.

Now, in this context we can state facts that the Poles "owe"

- Indeed, Jews were quite universally disliked, but don't cherry pick this statement, read to the end! Jews were NOT disliked based on genetic factors, as the denouncers of Polish anti-Semitism love to claim to create a straw man of a brute, primitive Pole. Jews were disliked as non-integrating aliens, not sharing the aspirations of the rest of the nation. On the other hand, a Jew could simply make a small effort to integrate and become recognized as a Pole. Just like that.

The example of Mexicans in the United States springs to mind: a person of Latino descent, speaking English and holding a regular job is considered a compatriot, and nobody makes any issue of his name ending with -ez. On the other hand, there is a rather universal dislike for people expressing allegiance primarily to Mexico, not bothering to learn English, gouging the welfare system (yes, this means that they formally are U.S. citizens) and claiming to be a poor, oppressed minority, discriminated against by Caucasian racists just "for being brown".

- The dislike indeed translated into anti-Jewish practices, but again, don't cherry pick: these were practices of individuals, never endorsed by any level the Polish government, either before, during or after the war (until the 1968 intra-Party power struggle, when the Gomulka's faction used anti-semitism as a state-sanctioned tool to secure the monopoly). On the contrary, occasionally the dislike manifested itself as pro-Jewish policies. Hard to believe? Consider, for example, the support of the Polish state for the establishment of Israel.

etzel.org.il/english/ac16.htm

- Some of the anti-Jewish acts crossed the line of crime. Such acts were duly, timely investigated and punished by Polish authorities. It is definitely hurtful when they are now regurgitated as "discoveries of new facts from the Polish history that should make Poles reconsider their role during the war". What am I supposed to reconsider, that a Volksdeutsch mayor of Jedwabne, together with German gendarmerie, gathered a group of Polish village idiots as supporters, other inhabitants as observers, and under the auspices of the German government organized a pogrom? While true, is this any rational basis for reconsidering the role of Poland and Poles played in World War II, as Jewish ethnocentric historians propose?

Harry, nobody is saying that individual Poles never committed any crimes against individual Jews. BUT practices such as: artificially inflating the numbers of incidents, manipulating facts to overemphasize the complicity of Poles, presenting Soviet occupiers and their collaborators killed by the resistance as innocent victims of ethnic hate, cherry picking incidents and bundling them together to create a clear victim/perpetrator perception (the Pole being given the latter role, naturally), has the following effects:

- Such historiography feeds the bigotry among Jews (well, perhaps this is an intentional, nation-building policy, but I see no reason to be forgiving)
- Such manner of discussion provokes in-kind responses, and then you are surprised that, in the context of the same discussion, Poles emphasize Jewish crimes.

I think the Jewish fighters who started the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising were uniquely entitled to expressing the truth, and they did so by displaying the Polish flag alongside the Star of David - a fact that must be incredibly hard to explain for the proponents of the thesis that Poles were just as complicit in the Holocaust as Germans were. Why should I rather believe in the ethnocentric version of history peddled from Brooklyn, by descendants of schmucks who spent the war comfortably in the United States?

We can go all year long and find pieces of S#!ts who do bad stuff. Does that prove that the whole group is bad? Or does it prove that people who dig this kind of stuff are bad? I wonder...

Please provide links to validate your statistical claims highlighted in bold and also provide a link to evidence to validate your claim that Gross has been quoted out of context.

Happily:


Now, as I've given the source you asked for, any chance you can show us where Gross says wrote the words "The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews."? Please note that a translation of claim made by somebody else in Polish that Gross wrote something like that in Polish is not Gross writing it; show us where Gross says what you repeatedly claim he said.


It shows that in comparison with the rest of the population Jews were no more loyal (if they were, more of them would have volunteered) and no less loyal (if they were, more of them would have ignored their call-up papers).


Oh dear, here we go again, Gummi making yet more unsourced unsubstantiated anti-semitic claims. Is there any point reply to them? Most probably not.


Source? Oh, sorry, forgot that you don't bother with sources. And you also don't know much about the KPP and its support from the USSR. Or perhaps you can tell us who killed most of the KPP's activists?


Would that have something to do with the anti-semitism which was allegedly rife among officers in the Polish army? I wonder.


www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/communities/trzebinia/jews_in_the_army.asp]

Wow. That was a quick response Harry, pity you can't provide a link to your lie that Gross never wrote what he did in his book and that he was being quoted out of context. Of the pre war population of Poland around 10% of the population claimed Jewish etnicity


Just quoting you here Harry so we know we are both agreed that 10% of the Polish population was of Jewish etnicity. When you say approximately, what margin for error either way is there in this approximate figure?

You mean what you claim Gross wrote: you have repeatedly refused to show us where Gross wrote what you claim he wrote. The best you have shown is a translated claim from somebody else that Gross said something like that in Polish. How am I supposed to provide a link to something which does not exist?! Surely even you can see how pathetic you look by insisting that somebody wrote something in English in a book that was written in Polish and then steadfastly refusing to give any proof that the book in question contains the words you claim it does!

I wonder why you refuse to answer the question of why Gross wrote in English in a book which is in Polish. Nevermind, we all know the answer.


Please do not lie: I do not say 'approximately', Yad Vashem say 'approximately'.

What a nonsense !Go Harry go and make it right ! You are known champion of true and justice !right ?


Ah, they stayed in the army for a year. As soon as hey find themselves on Israel that deserted. That just prove their loyalty, you are right Harry.

They haven't been even chased by the military police as they should be, by personal order given by general Anders. Otherwise Israel would be deprived of Begin services, at the time corporal Begin - deserter !

How surprising to see you lying about a Jew: Begin did not desert, Begin was given permission to remain in Palestine.

I'm sure he was, the all were given permission of sorts - namely general Anders order about Jewish deserters !

I quoted your quote and nowhere before you posted that did you say that you were quoting Yad Vashem. The link you posted at the bottom of your post here polishforums.com/history-poland-34/poles-owe-jews-60402/7/# msgmsg1283733 which is from Yad Vashem, and on that page it is claimed that the figure is over 100,000, nowhere is the word approximate used.

I am enquiring about your use use of the term "approximate" because in an earlier post here polishforums.com/history-poland-34/poles-owe-jews-60402/7/# msg1283609 you said it was a fact that the figure was exactly 100,000. I am trying to determine whether in your opinion it is a fact that the figure of 100,000 is a cast iron certainty or if in the space of a few posts you are having doubts about your claim that is was a fact or not as you posted a quote and a link where you contradict yourself. You say "fact" it was 100,000, then you say "approximately" but the link you posted says "over 100,000". Therefore having raised doubts in my mind what you are actually meaning, I asked you


So whether it is you using the word "approximately" Yad Vashem, the man in the moon or whoever, you quoted the word so therefore I am asking you, in your opinion, what margin for error either way of the 100,000 figure would you define the bands of approximation?

Good point. Apologies for missing the link out: yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/about/07/jewish_soldiers.asp


Really? I do look forward to you quoting me saying the figure was exactly anything.

Now, where is that link showing us where Gross wrote what you claim he wrote. The best you have shown is a translated claim from somebody else that Gross said something like that in Polish.

You then go on to say approximately. So as well as refusing to back up your claim that Gross wouldn't say what he wrote and it was taken out of context, you now refuse to define what you think is meant by approximate. You are so quick to provide links when you are sure of yourself as you do here and that is a thread started only a few hours ago. I asked you 3 days ago to back up your words that Gross's work was being quoted out of context and still you are unable to do so and we know why you are unable to do so because you can't. If you were so certain of your words you would have proven to me long ago just as you have been so quick and so happy to disparage monia on the other thread. You've been proved to be wrong in your claims, your false claim - should I play your game Harry and call you a liar? Nah, I won't because i don't have to stoop to your level. Now, what margin for error either side of the 100,000 figure would you take "approximately" to mean?

As said above, I look forward to you quoting me saying the number was exactly anything.

Now, where is that Gross quote? The one you claim was in English but in a book which was in Polish. Surely you can show it to us, seeing as you keep on claiming that he wrote that, show it to us.

Oh, dear, this is the lesson I have learned: no matter how rationally one tries to discuss, the troll will always turn it into Alice's Wonderland, claim that 2+2=7.33 and that the discussant never provided evidence to the contrary. Then comes the unavoidable conclusion: the troll declares the discussant a vile anti-Semite.

"Here we go again" means that the troll perfectly well remembers the prior discussions, in which the troll participated. If he remembers the discussions, he should also remember the statistical data I provided about the language used at home. He should also remember the following Issac Singer quote. Discussing with the troll further is not worth my time.

As you well know Harry the quote is here. The quote is lifted from an article written by Professor Tomasz Strzembosz the link which I provided earlier and it is here: yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205416.pdf

The quote is on page 4 of the article and the quote is properly referenced at the foot of page 4 giving the book title, publisher and page number. This is common practice in academic studies Harry, accepted by every university around the world, but for some reason it's not good enough for you, the reason being that you are unable to prove your claim the Gross was quoted out of context or that he didn't even write it.

You were quite happy to post a link to Israel Gutman's response and critique to Professor Strembosz's article,

yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%204797.pdf

which was first written in Polish and translated into English yet you refuse to accept the words of Jan T Gross quoted by Professor Strembosz whose article was also translated by the same person who translated Gutman's article.

Like I said in a previous post, when you are so sure of yourself you very quickly provide links to back yourself up yet when you have been found out to be making statements you can't support you try to change the subject, you accuse people of lying and you resort to personal insults. It is a common trend ever since you first started posting here, don't you just love archives :)

I gave you a chance to give me your personal definition of "approximately", to set the parameters either side of the 100,000 figure you used about Jewish personnel in the Polish Army in 1939 but for some reason you're avoiding this simple request too. Why? Is it because you don't like arguing on solid ground, because you like to be able to change the goalposts when you have been caught out? Here it is again Harry


You don't say "around 100,000, you don't say "an estimated 100,000", you don't say "approximately 100,000" - that comes in a later post but then you say the approximate part is not your word but that of Yad Vashem - you say "the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army". I will accept your revised position of "approximately 100,000", after all when a man admits he is wrong we should be big enough give him credit for doing so, therefore I can see that you know your claim of "the fact that 100,000 Jews were serving in the Polish army" is wrong which is why you then further qualified the 100,000 figure as only being an approximation. So in order to take this debate further forward I politely asked you to set the parameters either side of this approximated figure of 100,000. Again, polite request, set the parameters either side of the 100,000. You can set the figures in 100s, 1000s or as a percentage, you choose. You first brought the figure of 100,000 and also then brought the word approximately so over to you once again Harry.

^ Nope, that is a translation of somebody else claiming in Polish that Gross said something. Show us where Gross said the words you claim he said. Or just admit that you cannot, because he never said that.

Is this thread going to get back on topic or is it going to continue with this irrelevant garbage?

I've little doubt that question was rooted in the rhetorical, but just in case it wasn't, I'm afraid irrelevant garbage will prevail. Per usual.

Delete this thread. It wend off the deep end a long time ago!

Hey, before suggesting deleting my fekking thread, could you consider deleting your own fekking membership here? :):):):)

Continued


Mieczysław Jastrun
Mieczysław Jastrun born as Mojsze Agatstein (29 October 1903 - 22 February 1983) was a Polish poet and essayist of Jewish origin.[1] The main themes of his poetry are: philosophy and morality. He translated French, Russian and German poetry to Polish



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczys%C5%82aw_Jastrun

Stanisław Jerzy Lec (6 March 1909 - 7 May 1966) (born Baron Stanisław Jerzy de Tusch-Letz) was a poet and aphorist of Polish and Jewish noble origin. Often mentioned among the greatest writers of post-WW2 Poland, he was one of the most influential aphorists on the 20th century, known for lyrical poetry and sceptical philosophical-moral aphorisms, often with a political subtext.



Anatol Stern (24 October 1899 in Warsaw - 19 October 1968 in Warsaw) was a Polish poet, writer and art critic. Born October 24, 1899 to an assimilated family of Jewish ancestry, Stern studied at the Polish Studies Faculty of the University of Wilno but did not graduate. Prominent among Polish futurist poets, between 1921 and 1923 he co-authored (together with Jarosław Iwaszkiewicz) the "Nowa Sztuka" (New Art) monthly. He also collaborated with other notable art magazines of the time, including the Skamander, Tadeusz Peiper's Zwrotnica and Wiadomości literackie.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatol_Stern



Aleksander Wat, (born Aleksander Chwat) (1 May 1900 - 29 July 1967) was a Polish poet, writer and art theoretician, one of the precursors of Polish futurism movement in early 1920s.

After the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939 he moved to Lwów, then under Soviet occupation. Despite his sympathy for Communism, he was arrested by the NKVD and, together with his wife Paulina (usually called Ola) and his 9-year-old son Andrzej, exiled to Kazakhstan. Set free in 1946, he was allowed to return to Poland. He became one of the chiefs of the Państwowy Instytut Wydawniczy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Wat



Interesting article about Wat, in Polish.
Constant wanderer

One of the most famous Polish futurists born in 1900 into a Jewish family of Michael Mendel Chwat and Rozalia Kronsilber home . His sister was actress Seweryna Broniszówna , playing, among others the " Mogiła unknown soldier " . His literary activity Wat has already started in 1918 , when with Anatol Stern began writing poetic texts . In 1919 he undertook to compose a futuristic one-act plays , "Yes ," and in 1920 "These are blue heels that you need to paint ." In the autumn of 1919 years issued (dated 1920 years ) " I am on one side and I on the other hand my mopsożelaznego stove " - a song which introduced a lot of confusion in the literary world.

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to you. It just seemed it turned way to negative, and you haven't asked the mods to remove the negative Nancy's, and haven't entered into this thread for a while, which led me to assume that you abandoned this thread.

Oh, I see! I am really sorry for my outburst.


Yes, but there is freedom of speech after all, isn`t there?


No, I didn`t, I just went on the first part of my summer vacation.

No sweat Pawian. All is good in the hood. ;)

Good idea!


Bad idea. So far I presented a few Polish guys of Jewish origin who wrote beautiful poetry and fiction in the Polish language.

Now imagine they:

1. didn`t write anything and only did boring clerical work in Jewish businesses in Poland.
or
2. instead of Polish wrote in Yiddish or Hebrew.
or
3 Emigrated to another country.

In all the above cases the Polish literature wouldn`t be so rich as it is.

Leopold Tyrmand (May 16, 1920 in Warsaw, Poland - March 19, 1985) was a Polish novelist and editor. He studied architecture for a year at L'Ecole des Beaux Arts in Paris before the war, and during the war was a resistance fighter in Poland, a waiter in Germany (an experience he wrote about in his semi-autobiographical novel "Filip"), and a prisoner in a Norwegian concentration camp. Before he returned to a devastated Poland, he worked with the Norwegian Red Cross. Leopold Tyrmand rose to prominence for his publication of anti-regime newspapers in Poland.

Arkady Fiedler (November 28, 1894 in Poznań - March 7, 1985 in Puszczykowo) was a Polish writer, journalist and adventurer.
He studied philosophy and natural science at the Jagiellonian University in Kraków and later in Poznań and the University of Leipzig. As an officer of the reserve of the Polish Army, he took part in the Greater Poland Uprising in 1918, was one of the organizers of the Polish Military Organisation from 1918 to 1920.

He travelled to Mexico, Indochina, Brazil, Madagascar, West Africa, Canada and United States, amongst other countries.



Władysław Kopaliński (November 14, 1907 - October 5, 2007) was a Polish lexicographer, publisher, writer and translator.[1] He was a prolific author and winner of numerous awards for his work.[1]

Kopaliński was a renowned lexicographer and contributed much to modern knowledge of the origins of the Polish language.[1] He was considered an authority on the origins of Polish words, leading to a common expression, "Look it up in Kopaliński."[1] His Polish dictionaries include Dictionary of Myths and Cultural Traditions and the Dictionary of Symbols. [1] His most famous work was the Dictionary of Words and Phrases of Foreign Origin.

Right on!

I have presented main Polish writers/poets of Jewish origin. There are still a few more but I don`t have time to deal with them now.

How about film directors?

Aleksander Ford, a communist but made one good film:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Ford

Ford Poland

His best film, Krzyżacy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Teutonic_Order_%28film%29

At 6:55, the first Polish hymn - Bogurodzica

Jerzy Hoffman (born March 15, 1932 in Kraków, Poland) is a Polish film director and screenwriter. [1]

Deluge 1974, my favourite fragment





We had writers/poets and film directors, what about Polish Jewish people of sport?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Szewi%C5%84ska

Irena Szewińska (born Irena Kirszenstein on 24 May 1946 in Leningrad, USSR), between 1964 and 1980 she participated in five Olympic Games, winning seven medals, three of them gold. She also broke six world records and is the only athlete (male or female) to have held a world record in the 100 m, 200 m and the 400 m events. She also won 13 medals in European Championships. Between 1965 and 1979 she gathered 26 titles of Champion of Poland in 100 m sprint, 200 m sprint, 400 m sprint, 4x400 m relay and long jump.

In the 1974 season, she became the first woman to break the 50.0 second barrier for 400 meters, and she set a new world record of 22.21 for 200 meters.




Don`t be silly. This thread is supposed to be nice.

Bublik/Bagels or at least the export of them.

That'd be nice. Or some challah or rugelach.

I am sorry but I suppose you mistake two products:

Jewish bagel



and Polish Krakowian obwarzanek



Today, Poles don`t eat bagels. They eat obwarzanki.