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When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed?



Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #91

Step off the nationalistic propaganda bus. Read the real history you'll find it's interesting.

I told it like it is!

The census before the war had the Danzig population by 98 percent Germans. No propaganda.
The survey was made by the League of Nations.

They had majority German populations and spoke German, but by that standard Boston would be part of England or Ireland.

Oh pleeeeaaaase....now that is a lame argument! ROFL :):):)

I didn`t say that. Maybe they were speaking german but they prefer to be a part of Rzeczpospolita ( Poland) than belong to Prussia.

Sounds like another polish myth ;)

Prussia was the most modern and advanced country in Europe, why should they want to live as a hated minority in hostile, backwards Poland???

In the interwar years the League of Nations made similiar surveys in the contested areas in Silesia after the botched border drawing because of the Treaty of Versailles...the voting was nearly everywhere overwhelmingly pro Germany!


Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #92

Are you basing that on sheer intuition or any actual knowledge BB? From what I have read of the partition this is actually true some of the Prussian Hanse cities resisted it until the middle of the Century though it may not have been out of love for Kilbasa (these things can be quite complex, like History in general)

As a newby, can I ask, why do you hang out on a Polish forum since you seem to dislike and distrust Poles on general principle?

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #93

My family stems from lower Silesia...several little towns besides Breslau. I see myself as a German Silesian.
I'm very interested in Polish-German topics. I came to like many Poles here on the forum and I'm interested in Poland now generally.

But there is so much crap floating in polish minds...I blame the skewed commie history lessons in school.

But things get better...Poles open up to their German heritage instead of denying it...I'm glad if I can be of help!
David_18 69 | 987    
27 Aug 2010  #94

Coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation 1010

Actually it looked like this

image

And after 1400 and onwards it looked like this

art-wallpaper.com/143/Altdorfer+Albrecht/Emperor+Maximilian+triumphal+scene+Nazi+banners+and+imperial+sword+detail-1024x768-143.jpg

And the polish piast white eagle appeared before the german one.

Evolution of the White Eagle 992-2010
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #95

though it may not have been out of love for Kilbasa

maybe they just took a turn for the wurst.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #96

Actually it looked like this

That's the same just from another artist...but it's the same, really! ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Germany

The coat of arms of Germany is a sign of Germany; the coat of arms features an eagle. The colours of the coat of arms are similar to those of the flag of Germany (black, red and gold). Together with the Austrian coat of arms, which has the same history, it is the oldest extant state symbols of Europe and is among the oldest insignia in the world.

There might lay the misunderstanding...

:)
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #97

My understanding is that the Ostoja Clan, a powerful Polish / Hungarian family, were influential in the creation of the Prussian commonwealth, specifically within Danzig.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_of_Ostoja

Another interesting figure is a German knight and former member of the Teutonic Order, who parted ways with them and became a key figure in the rebellion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_von_Baysen

G.
David_18 69 | 987    
27 Aug 2010  #98

There might lay the misunderstanding...

Well the coat of arm changed dramatically from double-edged to single-edged and i wouldn't call the one germany got today "Original". So no it's not so old since the shape changed to much.

The polish white eagle was allways single-edged and never mutated from having one head to have 2 heads and then mutate back to one head...
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #99

maybe they just took a turn for the wurst.

But if they had good Louisiana Andoullie thre would have been no ethnic strife...

G.
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #100

never tried one, but I assume it'll be hot.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #101

Well the coat of arm changed dramatically from double-edged to single-edged and i wouldn't call the one germany got today "Original". So no it's not so old since the shape changed to much.

First:

...
Later, through its imperial insignium of the golden eagle (cf. adler), referred to in German as the Reichsadler, on German soil probably date back to the time of Charlemagne (742-814). Around the year 1200 the black eagle icon on a gold field was generally recognised as the imperial coat of arms.

Then:

...
In 1433 the double-headed eagle was adopted for the first time by the Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund. Since then the double-headed eagle came to be used as the symbol of the German emperor, and hence as the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.

Then back to today

The German Empire re-introduced the Medieval single headed eagle in a golden shield.

The so called Reichsadler, was already introduced at the Proclamation of Versailles, although the first version had been only a provisional one. The design of the eagle had been altered at least twice during the German Empire (1871-1918). It shows the imperial eagle, a realistic black eagle, with the crown of the Holy Roman Empire.

...I prefer the one-headed eagle...

Clan of Ostoja

Is it my tired eyes or does the clan have the german cross on their shield???

Ostoja coats of arms
David_18 69 | 987    
27 Aug 2010  #102

Charlemagne was not a German king.. He was king of the germans ;)

He was a frankish king exploiting the Germanic lands...

BB if you got time you should read some about the Ostoja clan. Really impressive history they have. Actually never heard of them before, i randomly came across it some month ago. they are a hidden diamond in the polish mud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_of_Ostoja
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #103

Charlemagne was not a German king.. He was king of the germans ;)

In Germany he's known as Karl der Große. Leader of the Franks. "Frank" being an oldish word for "free"...as in "Frank und Frei".

The Franks were a loose confederation of german tribes who gave France their name
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

His capital was Aachen and he was German :)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

He was a frankish king exploiting the Germanic lands...

Which one doesn't! ;)

But he was also the one who sowed the seeds for later France, Germany and Italy.
One of the most important figures in european history!

Carolus Magnus or Karolus Magnus, meaning Charles the Great; possibly 742 - 28 January 814) was King of the Franks from 768 and Emperor of the Romans (Imperator Romanorum) from 800 to his death.
He expanded the Frankish kingdom into an empire that incorporated much of Western and Central Europe.
During his reign, he conquered Italy and was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III on 25 December 800. This temporarily made him a rival of the Byzantine Emperor in Constantinople. His rule is also associated with the Carolingian Renaissance, a revival of art, religion, and culture through the medium of the Catholic Church.

geni.com/people/Charlemagne-Emperor-of-the-West/6000000002457013227

The EU is actually his empire second try. ;)
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #104

Actually that is a cross pattée, derived from the maltese cross, it was used by Crusaders throughout Europe.

You seem to think everyone and every thing is German...? The Ostoja was quintissentially Slavic.

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #105

You seem to think everyone and every thing is German...?

I was just asking...:)

Actually that is a cross pattée, derived from the maltese cross, it was used by Crusaders throughout Europe.

Do you have a link to that explanation.
The german cross was used by many (inclusive the Teutonic Order and now the german Bundeswehr).
z_darius 14 | 3,975    
27 Aug 2010  #106

Coat of Arms Germany
2010
Germany

xyz

No, actually, this is Germany's Coat of Arms in 2010:

.mj
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #107

David_18The polish white eagle was allways single-edged and never mutated from having one head to have 2 heads and then mutate back to one head...

The double headed vulture is the Hapsburg symbol.

But the flags don't mean much really. Most royal families in Europe used the Eagle because they were all trying to pretend to be Romans. That is what Kaizer and Tsar mean after all, Caesar.

G.
David_18 69 | 987    
27 Aug 2010  #108

He was German :)

Yes indeed he was german, did he care? Nah he exploited the poor swabians and saxons and the rest of the other "germanic" tribes.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #109

No, actually, this is Germany's Coat of Arms in 2010:

Any link for that?

But the flags don't mean much really.

Well...someone who denies the "German nation" in "Holy Roman Empire" should see it.

Flags mean alot...insignias are history pure and tell their own stories. Poles take their flags and insignia very seriously...as every other people does too.

Yes indeed he was german, did he care? Nah he exploited the poor swabians and saxons and the rest of the other "germanic" tribes.

Yeah...no nationstates back then.
Oh wonder :)

And you can cut out the hyphens from germanic tribes...because that's what they were. ;)
David_18 69 | 987    
27 Aug 2010  #110

Flags mean alot...insignias are history pure and tell their own stories. Poles take their flags and insignia very seriously...as every other people does too.

Word!!!

Any link for that?

Why? You wanna hang a print on the wall? xD

And you can cut out the hyphens from germanic tribes...because that's what they were. ;)

Indeed they were germanic. But don't try to use some kinda nationalistic german solidarity thingy that germanic people had some special connection to each other. They were tribes fighting against each other and did so untill the early 1900's.
Wroclaw 45 | 5,410    
27 Aug 2010  #111

this is a german eagle in wroclaw/breslau:

sepolno.wroclaw.pl/index.php?go=foto|lot
David_18 69 | 987    
27 Aug 2010  #112

this is a german eagle in wroclaw/breslau:

Haha sweet :D

Seems that not only the rich oil Shejks in Dubai can play with their architecture.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #113

Why? You wanna hang a print on the wall? xD

I wanted to make a joke

*damn my german humourlessness* :(

this is a german eagle in wroclaw/breslau:

Needs some more german Bratwurst...looks so tiny!

But don't try to use some kinda nationalistic german solidarity thingy that germanic people had some special connection to each other.

As long Poles speak of polish this and polish that from the same time far back, making everything a polish/german national clash I am allowed to speak of german this and german that...only fair! :)

But yes, they had of course a connection with each other....they could understand each other shared the same customs, law and traditions...even Tacitus described them already 2000 years back as a people easily distinguishable from their neighbours.

How do you think such a tribes federation like the Franks came to pass in the first place?
jeden - | 251    
27 Aug 2010  #114

Sounds like another polish myth ;)

Prussia was the most modern and advanced country in Europe, why should they want to live as a hated minority in hostile, backwards Poland???

BB

tell me sth. about otherpolish mythes;)

Becouse in Prussia they had to pay high taxes, it was militerized country when in poland taxes were low and The City had a lot of freedom rights.

Hatred in Poland ?? Sounds like another german myth.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #115

tell me sth. about other polish mythes;)

Bismarcks Kulturkampf being solely directed against Poles to opress especially them.

That being a Pole in Prussia had been pure terror...

That Germans eat polish babies for breakfast..

...wait...

Becouse in Prussia they had to pay high taxes, it was militerized country when in poland taxes were low

Yeah, well..there is a reason that Prussia was so advanced...all this infrastructure and industrialisations has to be paid by someone.
Also Bismarcks welfare laws (which had been also for polish workers) had been expensive...

Mostly agrarian Poland had less taxes with good reason!
Ironside 42 | 7,793    
27 Aug 2010  #116

Prussia was the most modern and advanced country in Europe, why should they want to live as a hated minority in hostile, backwards Poland???

Well, sound like German or rather Prussian myth !
\
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #117

You know what depresses me... in all the great cities we have mentioned on this thread, Gdansk, Wroclaw Lubeck etc, there are guys out on the town at this minute, with pretty girls and large glasses of beer, who don't give a damn about all the history... while we sad, lonely sods sit here on our computers...
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #118

while we sad, lonely sods sit here on our computers...

I can help out with the beer....:)
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #119

cool. i have a couple of bottles of whisky here (to celebrate the Scottish contribution to Gdansk and Elblag)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #120

Hmm...beer or whiskey...what to choose...what to choose... I'm better bowing out here...to much alcohol for a fine historical discussion :)




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