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When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed?



Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #61

I didn't open this thread! :(

No, you were just obeying orders...


Crow 133 | 5,511    
27 Aug 2010  #62

problem is that one never know what is enough for Germany. This is how Germany grabbing land on Balkan >>>

German foreign minister Westerwelle today visited Kosovo what is by Serbian constitution Serbian territory. Here is what said Westerwelle on sovereign Serbian territory: “Independence of Kosovo and its territorial integrity are a fact,” Westerwelle said and added that “the map of the Balkans has already been drawn”.

Idiots miscalculated. They just opened Pandora`s box announcing new phase of Drang Nach Osten. We shall see who would finish this game

Anyway, its just the matter of time when would German appetites turn to Poland
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #63

What Hanse towns went voluntarily to Poland???

I suggest this refers to Hanse towns joining forces with Polish/Lithuanian commonwealth against the Teutonic Order, as part of dispute over trade.

Bismark, a speech by the man himself. interesting reading: h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/speech.html

an excerpt: "When I think about the reasons for this, there comes to mind the Catholic department [of the Prussian government] which, until its abolition by my direct intervention as minister-president, possessed the character of a Polonizing organ inside the Prussian administration. (Unrest in the Center Party and among the Poles). Under the direction of Herr Kraetzig--I hope he lives still, it had become an institute of a few great Polish families, in whose service these officials pushed Polonization in all the contested German-Polish districts. That is why it became necessary for me to agree to the abolition of this department. And this is actually the reason I generally concurred in the Kulturkampf. [5] From my personal point of view, there would have been no Kulturkampf. (Vigorous contradictions from the Center Party.) Yes, gentlemen, say what you will. I leave you to your doubts. There will be a few who will believe me, but I am rather indifferent as to whether anyone believes me. Yet, for anyone who wants to be informed, it is necessary for me to give my personal opinion.

The person who drew me into the Kulturkampf was Herr Kraetzig, the chairman of the Catholic department, which was formed in the Prussian bureaucracy to protect the rights of the king and the church. However, it developed under the king's authority and seal an exclusive activity in the direction of protecting the rights of the Roman church as well as Polish machinations against the king. And for that reason it had to be dissolved. ("Aha!" from the Center Party and the Poles.)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #64

Yeah...imagine that...polonization of Prussia by a growing, well off polish middle class.
Poles having the same rights and duties as all other Prussians.

I bet you never heard about that one contrary to the beloved myth of the oh so poor, tortured Poles bravely fighting the mean barbarian Prussians.
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #65

Gdansk / Danzig ledthe Prussian Confederation which askedKing Casimir IV to join Poland in 1454 and allied with them against their former overlords in the Teutonic Order. The treaty was signed in Danzig. I'll quote from the wikipedia page since you like to use it as a reference:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Confederation#Establishment

"After about three decades of growing discontent, the Prussian leaders (see Prussian estates) organized themselves to oppose the rule of the order more effectively. On 14 March 1440, a group of 53 gentry and clergy and 19 Prussian cities, under the leadership of the Hanseatic cities of Danzig (Gdańsk), Elbing (Elbląg), and Thorn (Toruń), founded the Prussian Confederation in Marienwerder (Kwidzyn). Several more towns joined on 3 April, although Bütow (Bytów) did not. In Danzig, the new members signed a document[1] which was kept in the archives of Thorn."

" Gabriel von Baysen and Johannes von Baysen, now leading the confederation, requested the protection of King Casimir IV Jagiellon of Poland. They also asked for, and received, a guarantee of their continued city rights and privileges for the gentry."

The same thing happened many times before with Hanse cities. Riga allied with the Lithuanians in 1297 to get out from the oppression of the (German) Teutonic Order.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis#Alliance_with_Riga

What Hanse towns went voluntarily to Poland???

All of the ones in Prussia, to start with. See the links above.

Are you confusing things here?

No I think you are a little confused about this period of history.

You really should read up about the Hanse....
Just in short...it was a GERMAN merchant organization....with GERMAN as official trade language under GERMAN law...barely were any non-germans allowed in.

It was a bit more compex than that....

And it was the
Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation...so, what do you think...

I think the HRE included subjects of every central European race, including Bohemians, Poles, Italians, Swiss, Flemmish, Frisians, Burgundians, Hungarians, Moravians, Wlachians and numerous others during it's history. More importantly, it's ruling class included Aristocrats from many other parts of of Europe including Spain, Bohemia, Hungary, Poland etc. etc.

I also don't think you know much about it. But that's ok, neither did I until I read a few books.

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #66

I suggest this refers to Hanse towns joining forces with Polish/Lithuanian commonwealth against the Teutonic Order, as part of dispute over trade.

You mean that?

HRE

Coat of Arms Germany
2010

Germany
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #67

German trady by German merchants with german city law...they didn't become polish just because they had a clinch with the also Teutonic order.

Don't be ridiculous!

I wasn't saying they did become Polish, I was just suggesting that was what the original comment referred to.
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #68

Bratwurst BoyLooks more like an economical clinch than anything else....And the Hanse towns stayed still german!
German trady by German merchants with german city law...they didn't become polish just because they had a clinch with the also Teutonic order.

Don't be ridiculous!

Arguing with history is pretty ridiculous, it is what it is mate.

They asked to become part of the Polish kingdom BB. It was a permanent shift from German to Polish rule. After the 13 years war the city of Danzig and the other West Prussian cities were part of Poland for the next three hundred years, until the Polish partitiion. They eventualy got seats in the Polish senate. They never asked to return to the rule of any German state.

As for their german city laws, independent cities off this type existed in the Holy Roman Empire as well and in many other parts of Europe. In the HRE these were called "Free Imperial Cities". Almost all of the significant Hanse cities had this status. Of course free cities also existed in Flanders, in Lombardy, in Switzerland etc..

There was more than one type of German, the Hanseatic cities were at least as far apart from the mentality of the Teutonic Order as your ideal of Germans and Poles were. That is why Hamburg and Lubeck refused to let Hitler speak in the 1930s

telegraph.co.uk/travel/citybreaks/5428909/Lubeck-The-town-that-said-no-to-Hitler.html

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #69

I wasn't saying they did become Polish, I was just suggesting that was what the original comment referred to.

Sorry, I didn't meant you....that comment was for the newbie here!
k98_man    
27 Aug 2010  #70

Poles will never give back the land to Germany. For the same reason parts of Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine will never be given back to Poland.

The lines have been drawn and after the persecution* of the ethnic Germans in Poland, there isn't much of a volksdeutsche minority (or at least compared with the interwar period).

* I understand the persecution of Germans after the war in light of events during the war, but that does not justify it.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #71

There was more than one type of German, the Hanseatic cities were at least as far apart from the mentality of the Teutonic Order as your ideal of Germans and Poles were. That is why Hamburg and Lubeck refused to let Hitler speak in the 1930s

Erm...and you want to say what?

The Hanse has been a german merchant organization....trade was the first on their minds.
The Teutonic Order tried to get to their wallets, they lost.
The Hanse made these towns rich and prosperous.
It still were Hanse towns and Danzig and Breslau and many others stayed german towns till the Poles did what Germans never had done, they expelled the millions of Germans from their homes for centuries.
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #72

Seriously? That is the best you can do? A flag?

How old are you?

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #73

For someone who doubts the German character of the HRE or the German character of the Hanse one has to be blunt! :)

This coat of arms is the oldest continuously used coat of arms in Europe and one of the oldest in the world! Nearly 1000 years!

How old are you?

ROFLMAO

back to the books with you!
Crow 133 | 5,511    
27 Aug 2010  #74

for any decent Polish patriot German involvement against Serbia on Kosovo is practically another German attack on Poland
Ironside 42 | 7,827    
27 Aug 2010  #75

never

never is a big word!

* I understand the persecution of Germans after the war in light of events during the war, but that does not justify it.

file complain against your government,
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #76

And at least as these territories had been under german rule the Pole wer allowed flourish there, not expelled like the Germans under polish rule!

Not at all?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9507E4DF1E38E033A2575AC2A9679C94679FD7CF
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #77

the Poles did what Germans never had done, they expelled the millions of Germans from their homes for centuries.

do you think the Teutonic Order got control of that area to begin with? The Germans never expelled people from their homes? For real? Do you really want me to start citing examples?

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #78

Not at all?

Not at all

More than 30,000 Poles with Austrian or Russian citizenship were deported from the Prussian part of divided Poland to the respective Austrian and Russian parts.

Compare that to 14 Millions and whole towns...

The expulsion was condemned by the Polish public as well as the federal German parliament. The expulsion also contributed to the worsening of the German-Russian relations. In the aftermath, Poles without German citizenship were again allowed to work and reside in the German Empire in all seasons but the winter.

But no condemnation or even apology by the Poles even today...
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #79

Bratwurst Boy
For someone who doubts the german character of the HRE or the german character of the Hanse one has to be blunt! :)

This coat of arms is the oldest continously used coat of arms in Europe and one of the oldest in the world! Nearly 1000 years!

But this was at the start a Frankish kingdom, which had Hungarian, Bohemian, Spanish, and Flemish kings, had subjects who spoke Italian, Slovenian, Czech, Flemish, Frisian various dialects of German.

As a wise man once said, it was neither Holy, nor an Empire, nor Roman. And it was not exclusively German by a long shot. Saying it has a German "Character" is a little bit of a wiggle from claiming it is 100% German.

ROFLMAO

back to the books with you!

You seem to be surprised to learn some basic facts so far in this thread. Were you unaware that Danzig had asked to join Poland?

Your own argument now seems to be it doesn't matter what nation a city belongs to... perhaps you should leave it at that.

G.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #80

Are you serious? How do you think the Teutonic Order got control of that area to begin with? The Germans never expelled people from their homes? For real? Do you really want me to start citing examples?

No really, what would the Poles do without the history of the Teutonic order? All the books, and movies and reenactment battles and nice castles...;)
Crow 133 | 5,511    
27 Aug 2010  #81

Poland made grave mistake for let Germany to overrun Western Slavic territories. Its biggest sin of Poland

fortunately, Northern Serbs survived and they have very active relationship with Southern Serbs. One day, when Poland arise and decide to respond on German threat, Poland may play on Serbian card. That card cover zone from Baltic to Balkan, zone of biggest German interest. Plus, playing on Serbian card Poland preventing Russian betrayal in eventual schemes with Germany.

Good news is that Serbs wait for that day, day when would Poland arise. So, its up to Poland
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #82

Were you unaware that Danzig had asked to join Poland?

I know about the history of quarrels with the Teutonic Order.
Many Poles see these times as fights of Poles against Germans through the lenses of the 21th century and here I object.

Polish and German history was intertwined in many ways for centuries...That german merchants had a gripe with a german order and build alliances to secure their trade can't be interpreted even by the biggest idiot as "Germans seeking refuge in Poland from german opression!"

Get real man!

Danzig still stayed a german prosperous center of trade full of Germans under german law and speaking german (till 1945) that is!

Your own argument now seems to be it doesn't matter what nation a city belongs to... perhaps you should leave it at that.

I'm talking about today and it's fine as it is!

The arguments spring up if Poles want to falsify german history in Poland or deny german history in Poland at all!

As a wise man once said, it was neither Holy, nor an Empire, nor Roman. And it was not exclusively German by a long shot. Saying it has a German "Character" is a little bit of a wiggle from claiming it is 100% German.

Well..aren't you claiming Poland of the middle age was "polish"? Even as it had millions of Germans innit?
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #83

Compare that to 14 Millions and whole towns...

That's numbers (I don't mean that in a non-human way). It was still deportations.

Hey, I'm not saying the post-45 deportations were right, just showing how nationalist mythologies have their roots in earlier actions.
Galloglaich 3 | 36    
27 Aug 2010  #84

Bratwurst Boy
I now about the history of quarrels with the Teutonic Order.
Many Poles see these times as fights of Poles against Germans through the lenses of the 21th century and here I object.

I suspect you don't know much about this. Read up on the 13 years war. It was a war between the Poles and the Germans, with the Prussian cities on the side of the Poles. It's pretty unambiguous. And I'm not a Pole.

Polish and German history was intertwined in many ways for centuries...That german merchants had a gripe with the german order and build alliances

It wasn't merely an alliance, they asked to be part of Poland and negotiated the conditions of joining. Be precise.

to secure their trade can't be interpreted even by the biggest idiot as "Germans seeking refuge from german opression!"

That is how they described it in their own words... but of course, that assumes that these towns were really German. They had majority German populations and spoke German, but by that standard Boston would be part of England or Ireland.

Get real man!

Danzis still stayed a german prosperous center of trade full of Germans (till 1945) that is!

Step off the nationalistic propaganda bus. Read the real history you'll find it's interesting.

G.
jeden - | 251    
27 Aug 2010  #85

Danzig still stayed a german prosperous center of trade full of Germans under german law and speaking german (till 1945) that is!

maybe BB but in XvIII Those germans prefer to be part of Poland than go to Prussia.
Thi is the fact. Gdańsk/Danzing was the most loyal polis city, their citizens were loyal to Poland even after first partition when Prussia took the all cost. Only the "german" city stay polish ;)
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #86

Poland made grave mistake for let Germany to overrun Western Slavic territories. Its biggest sin of Poland

A bit ironic when you think Lubeck (the pearl of the Hanse) was colonized by Slavs at the expense of the Saxons, who Charlemagne was a bit annoyed with.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,944    
27 Aug 2010  #87

Why ironic? That's Europe as we all know and love it! ;)

maybe BB but in XvIII Those germans prefer to be part of Poland than go to Prussia.
Thi is the fact. Gdańsk/Danzing was the most loyal polis city, their citizens were loyal to Poland even after first partition when Prussia took the all cost. Only the "german" city stay polish ;)

Any links for that? When did they start speaking polish instead of german?
Trevek 27 | 1,703    
27 Aug 2010  #88

Why ironic? That's Europe as we all know and love it! ;)

true, let's start sizzling those brotherhood sausages.
jeden - | 251    
27 Aug 2010  #90

When did they start speaking polish instead of german?

I didn`t say that. Maybe they were speaking german but they prefer to be a part of Rzeczpospolita ( Poland) than belong to Prussia.

Links - I read it in the book, but I will search in int.




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