What should Russia and Poland do to become if not friends, then at least not enemies?

In the 80s Soviets ordered our communist government to 'deal' with opposition by introducing martial law. And also suggesting that if our communists won't solve the matter with proper deciseveness, Soviets might 'aid' them in this.

For 40 years we Poles were harboring hostility towards our imperialist Soviet oppressors. Finally in 1989 the shift in global political situation allowed us to throw off the shackles, humoristically called the Warsaw Pact.

I don't think you know how NATO works (but you know sh*it about everything you write about, so it's nothing new).

As a general rule, NATO does not 'attack' its members. That was the Warsaw Pact's speciality.

When a member of NATO is attacked, article 5 of the Treaty kicks in, and members in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

There is no veto power here. Each country reacts to the degree it feels necessary to secure the alliance.

The only veto power in NATO is when a new country wishes to join. And you can bet that if Russia would like to join to become a Trojan horse inside NATO, Poland would happily veto the sh*it out of them.

What else does he have?


their own choices created the years of harship and chaos.... people in Poland also had a very hard 90s but never descended into anything like mafia wars or social disintegration. different countries, different cultures, different choices.....

To show you that US-NATO does attack and that you are lying or playing semantics when you claim this:


At least you bothered to include that "general rule" disclaimer.

Poland would have to make many changes, before Russia would be willing to provide it with nuclear weapons. Let's look at existing examples of people sharing nuclear weapons.

The closest example of someone simply giving someone else nuclear weapons, together with the keys to them, is Britain and the United States. Meaning, Britain was simply allowed to purchase American Trident ICBMs, and is more or less in control of them. This unique situation exists for a long list of reasons, but perhaps the main one is that the Brits already had their own nukes before (and had at least the theoretical ability to continue making their own). Britain and the United States are also exceptionally close allies, sharing a common history, having fought together in the two most important conflicts in modern history. It is impossible to imagine the UK threatening or extorting the US by means of nuclear brinksmanship.

The other examples are of the United States stationing nuclear weapons on the territory of key allies such as Germany or Turkey. It doesn't mean that the Germans or Turks can use those nuclear weapons at will. Even if those countries are attacked themselves, the US will have the final say in whether or not they can be used.

Then there is the example of Belarus, which is also merely making its country available for hosting Russian nukes. Whatever Lukashenko says, it's not his to threaten others with. However, the nukes ARE in Belarus, and this IS important. Problem for you Poles, if you want the nukes from us, is that Belarus and Russia are a part of something called the Union State. Are you willing to enter that level of intimate partnership with us? Because I think that's the only way this will happen.

Who said it is easy?
I feel like you missing my point here. Poland will get nukes. If Poland will get it without Russian green light or Russia will not hand over few or just technology, than Poland would have a different postions in negotiations, or possible alliance with Russia and it would cost Russia a lot more then ...

In case Russia would give or agree on the nukes deal - that would mean you are serius about it and you mean it and that would be included in a bill.

This is probably possible. Start by signing agreement with Rosatom (the world's largest nuclear power corporation, building the most nuclear reactors around the world), to build a Polish NPP or a couple. If it works for Hungary, it should work for Poland.

This would give Polish scientists and engineers time and invaluable experience in operating and maintaining a nuclear power plant. From there, it is really a technical step, and some serious investment, for Poland to be able to build the facilities necessary for weapons grade enrichment.

However, Russia likely would not be comfortable with Poland keeping fissile materials, would want them returned for burial in Russia. Also, unless it did this secretly, Russia could not help Poland build the enrichment facilities.

We were trying to help Iran and look what happened. Jews keep blowing up the place, killing the chief scientists, and Iran is sanctioned like it is not on Earth but some orbiting body.

Poland should give nukes a wide berth, they offer a false sense of security whilst your country erodes away. Spend the money on the military instead.

Yes. Once a country has them they can become a burden. Aside from non-proliferation treaties, there are already three nuclear states within NATO and perhaps the best way forward is for Poland to capitalise in its strengths, one of which is its conventional army.

You would have to first invent an antibiotic that can kill the anti-Russia virus.

Iran is a different story. If USA want to back off from Europe or hand it over to Germany, it is much better if Poland would have a say in this as well, long term Poland could be a better Germany and Garmany as it is as their a declininig in all statc.

Tech, good, trade, know how all of that. Having Europen potencial at it back Russia would could do what you like the best flex with your milltary power, rather then became overtly depended on China.

Poland would be glad to be second biggest military in the region and a good ally to Russia.

To be taken seriusly we need nukes, orbital capabilites ( space - that another field Russia could help) and ability to imploy them if needed.
You see you have this thing about big countiries and all the rest. Poland doesn't need to be big - position is all yours but we would like to be a key element in the construction that keeps Russia in that position. A one that is not essily removed or subdued.

very well written argument; in NATO Poland is weaker position than: USA, Turkey, France, the UK, Germany, Italy. then there are NATO partners Australia and Japan, both more important than Poland - so we are what? 8th? 9th? second league. in alliance with Russia Poland would easily be the 2nd power - an important element and important ally; Russian resources and territory are huge which will be important in the future overpopulated world;

so is the shift in alliances possible; by all means; by all means; but Russia must show that they are serious about this; serious would porbably mean around 400-500 icbms and a large number of tactical nukes as well as know-how and possibility for Poland to produce our own nuclear weapons;

serious alliance of two serious Slavic brothers and friends

Yes, we know. If Poles decided to turn to Russia`s side, Russians would thank us on their knees.
But Poles don`t want to ally with Russia. Such a character. Born with it. Sucked with mother`s milk. What can you and we do about it? ):):)


hahahaha Forget it. Russians are suspicious by nature even more than Poles.

Who is this "We" you're talking about?

pawian:

your response strange as you have to consider always the greater good of our Country; please look at the greatest patriots of Poland: konfederacja party, their supporters, their families and also football fans: Ekstraklasa, 1. liga, all lower leagues; they all think patriotically - in a modern eNDek ways; they are al;l Poles, aren't they? millions of them

if we want Poland be great again what we have to do is to become eNDeks; of course modern ones, with great respect to Dmowski tradition but in 21st century;

only modern NDcja in alliance with our Slavic brothers can lead Poland into a new alliance - in the future, when muslims and woke crowd take over the west, the alliance no.1 in the world;

now the ball is in Russia park; you say they are suspicious; yes of course; but they are also smart (chess, engineering, mathematics and so etc.) so I believe they will make that offer to us; they are great chess players and with such move they would say to the world: CHECK MATE

They collect the support of about 10 -15% of voters. Not enough to turn Poland into Russia`s ally.


I reject endeks coz they are fascists and potential murderers. They love dealing with their opponents by burning them in a locked barn, like Jews in Jedwabne. I refuse to be burnt. Do you feel what I know???


Yes, some are. But certainly not their current leadership who hadn`t predicted massive Western aid for fighting Ukraine and all those sanctions which are slowly turning Russia into a fallen state.

And the stance of some of them on r*SSia is not in their favour now.


And those are slowly declining in developed societies of course. Poland is no exception.

pawian:

"10-15%"; you tell about goverment opinion polls - are bullrcap; in reality konfederacja already is this moment about 23-25% and will be more;

"Jedwabne" one little episode in ww2 when many horrible things happened and it is not exactly clarifies what exactly happened there and by whom; researchers argue

"slowly turning Russia into a fallen state"; that's why they need our help; they got lost and we can help them find the solution; but we need the nukes, they are vital

there's one more thing to consider (it may not happen but that's another option) that when Russia gives us 500 icbms and stuff then America will say "wait a minute, Poland, you are our ally we need you"; they will then overcome Russia's offer and give us 700 icbms (but remember: by then we already have the 500 we got from Russia, so together it is already 1200 icbms); what do we do at that moment? simple - when we have 1200 icbms then we need neither USA nor Russia;

then we will say - "ha ha CHECK MATE beaches!" (well, maybe in diplomacy we wont say beaches because it rude but you begin to see the plan?)

We`ll see in October. :):):)


Say to who exactly???

@jon357
So, luckly in Poland fascist exist only as left crazy conspiracy theories or strowmen. Funny to seen you conspiracy theory embodied it is called sometimes being delusional

pawian:

"Say to who exactly???" - to whom it may concern;

":):):)" - you laugh of me but i am a mature political thinker and have to take evvery probability in account; of course there are many other configurations of alliances with Russia; for example: there is BRICS alliance but in this alliance there is one weak link - Brazil;

why? because Brazil very strong ties to USA:

historynewsnetwork.org/article/172255

that why Brazil in BRICS need to be replaced by Poland; my only possible worry would be that PRICS is a rather unfortunate sounding acronym (but that is a secondary issue here);

No, they truly exist. See your mates again in infamous photos which went down in history:

• 
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• 
  z26798235QTomaszGr.jpg
  

When there are current serving politicians who've been photographed making fascist salutes, I think we can say they exist.

Why would they do that? Is this a viable scenario in case of Trump's victory? *gets a bit worried*

@max321

You should definitely become Poland's foreign minister (if only for the 1200 ICBMs masterplan :D), but realistically at the moment the realtions with Russia will have to be slowly rebuilt, step-by-step, towards a tolerable level of good neighbourhood. And that's, of course, after the war.

Real true Nazis???? I still have a hard time believing that....why that salute???? *scratches head*

ONR. Before WW2 the original ONR had some very marginal influence but were always plagued with internal conflicts and divisions. It was a fascist movement but oddly enough they had quite a few Jews in their ranks, including the leadership (Mosdorf, Piasecki). They weren't nazi collaborators though - Gestapo hunted them down and many of them (including the two I mentioned) were executed.

Now ONR has a membership of around 1000 and is equally divided as their predecessors were 80 years ago. A strange, chaotic organisation. Zoological curiosity really.

....more like fetish then! ;)

Definitely. You could fit all of them into Pawian's vegetable garden plot (although he wouldn't be happy with such visitors). :)

Why would we say it? There is no need to say anything, we don't know cricumstances or what will happen few moves ahead. If you are a mature thinker you shouldn't jump your time - on what ifs....

If you asking about handing it all to Germany, they not only would but would like it very much, Germans are not so kin to spend money for the privilage of being American key ally in Europe. They know they would have to pay the bill.

Poland on the other hand under PiS would love it, but they don't really want them, nor Poland. I mean USA is not a monolite so there are options, but Binden and his backers don't really like Poland.

Demokrats always bet on Soviet or Nazis in Europe, they have this Germanophile vibe. Aslo they care more about LGBT issues than military issues..
Reps have a strong isolationism as an element within the party - why would we care about some Ukraine and Europe should stand on their own feet, we paid on them enough.

That's what you think. The Germans would love it because that stupid step would make Poland the prime target of Russia. The Poles won't love it because over time the nukes will bankrupt them.