Lyzko, I would gladly learn where I am in error. Everything that I stated is well documented and not a surprise to anybody who lived during those times in Poland . What you are saying is merely revealing your belief system which is commendable but has nothing to do with objective historical accuracy and proves that you are unable of inquisitiveness required to look past your obvious bias.
Jews preferred to render help to Germans over joining the fight for Poland. It is a plain fact. They felt little or no affiliation to our country. It is important to mention that before WWII the population of Jews nearly doubled due to increasing anti-Semitism abroad. Josef Szynkman, Adam Czerniakow, organization Zagiew, Gestapo Section 13, Jewish Sondercommando/kapo, Judenrate responsible for providing the Nazi's with slave labor, and rounding up quotas of Jews for deportations to extermination camps, Chaim Rumkowski running war supplies manufactory in Lodz, Mosze Merin who was harsh in his dealings with Jewish opposition groups, ultimately aided the Nazis in the hunt for leaders of those groups, going so far as to sign their execution orders himself. He did this with full cooperation of the Jewish Police Force, whose leader fervently defended Merin's every decision; Solomon Morel, wanted for war crimes hid and died in Israel . These are all examples that they were not a reliable ethnic group in the fight of Polish independence.
In the East they were a main force behind Soviet advancement. Their wholehearted support for communism enabled Soviets to quickly subdue and identify social leaders and either kill or send 2mln to gulags ( that were largely run by Jews). Jews in the years 1944 held majority of functions in the communistic regime in Poland. They were overrepresented in all communistic parties since WWI 1918 and were working with their Russian counterparts closely over the interwar period. In the years 1944-1946 nearly 100% of secrete service agents (SB/UB - the most brutal) were Jewish. This new establishment was responsible for killing 500,000 Polish underground army fighters, patriots and those opposing the system in the mock trials, undergoing unimaginable tortures ( look up Witold Pilecki for your own good). The merciless prosecutors were Helena Wolinska- Brus ( hid in the UK and died there), Stefan Michnik ( hides in Sweden) brother of Adam Michnik - who runs the biggest press agency in Poland - the one that you call "responsible"??!!! People like Solomon Morel communist collaborators and cold blooded mass murderers were responsible for spreading anti-Polish propaganda in Israel, especially after being charged with war crimes by IPN. Media in Poland are known to be largely controlled by Jews who will not let truth to reach the surface. Instead movies like : the Aftermath, Ida are being produced following the belief that a lie repeated often enough will become acceptable norm.
World Jewish Council and Yad Vashem are political organizations that don't bother to pretend that they are interested in documenting and portraying historical events objectively. When you go to their websites the cynicism is overbearing. It is obvious to me but never to you because you are biased.
You mention something vaguely about Jews in the US. They comprised majority of communistic political parties, student organizations and were involved in espionage on behalf of USSR ( Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to mention just one case).
Yes, Jews have plenty of skeletons to hide and since attack is the best defense tactic we see so many abominable articles, books and movies. World Jewish Council made good on it's promise that it will humiliate Poland on international forum.
Fire away, it will all come back to you 10 fold! Building Holocaust memorials in every part of the world will not stop the truth from coming out.
No one here on PF, least of all yours truly, has ever stated that Jews have some sort of saintly, martyred aka untouchable status, a sort of monopoly either on suffering or perfect behavior which automatically frees them from being just as human (along with their share of low lives, greedy opportunists and scum!!!) as anyone else. The issue here is whether Poland is as complicit as Pan Profesor Gross, along with his myriad defenders, contend it was.
To be historically accurate as always, Poland was one of the occupied countries which NEVER had the type of puppet government as did Quisling-Norway, Szillasy-Hungary with her Arrow Crossers, Hacha-Czechoslovakia, Vichy France or Romania with her Iron Guard etc. True enough and let's give credit to those sterling members of the (gentile) Polish Resistance as well, who willingly gave their lives for humanity and freedom.
However, we must not dare forget either that Poland's anti-semitism was virulent, and never far below the surface. To suggest otherwise is indeed hostile to both Jews as well as in flagrant disregard for historical fact. Shall we call in David Irving for some lessons in historical revisionism, maybe??!
I am Jewish on my fathers side. What do you dispute with David Irving's findings Lyzko out of interest? Have not his books received critical acclaim from the most highly regarded western media outlets? The destruction of Dresden? Did his research skills not go beyond those of other WWII historians? Learning languages to interview primary witnesses and hiding away in national archives for months reading diaries and primary sources. Was he not publicly credited for his thoroughness? Does it not concern you that i can say that the guards of the gulags in Siberia might have played football with the inmates. However if i say that regarding Oswiecim or Belzec for instance i could go to prison for two years? That sets off major alarm bells for me and quite frankly it should do for you also. Unless of course you are a few sandwiches short of a picnik?
Chamonix, Mr. Irving shares with many other historians of his ilk the overriding desire to make his theories fit the facts rather than the other way round.
David Irving - all I really know about him is he put Hitler's doctor's notes on the internet free of charge. I think Konrad Heiden is very instructive as regards Hitler. Heiden is credited with the mickey-take insult of "Nazi" (from Ignacy - Catholic country bumpkin party) and wrote widely about Hitler. He credited Hitler's anti-Semitism to the over-representation of Jews in the Communist movement, not the over-representation in the financial sector. Heiden was a German Jew and a socialist.
Moving on - it was mainstream thinking in Germany 1900-1930s that Germany needed to compensate for the lack of worldwide empire (Bismarck's clever but boring choice) with an eastern European empire. It was a given. Hitler didn't invent the concept of Lebensraum - moreover, they got it with Brest-Litovsk. Mainstream thinking saw Lebensraum as involving enslavement and displacement of tens of millions, whereas Hitler's plan was to kill 30 million through starvation.
You have to remember that Hitler was an invention of the German Army - they trained him politically then financed him in the early years to keep the working class anti-Communist. He was merely an exaggeration of what they wanted. The taxi driver made absolutist, incompetent monarch. Fortunately Eichmann (the logistics man behind the Holocaust) had been equally efficient when the policy was forced exile of Germany's Jews - which is why 76% of them survived, despite the hostile stance taken to Jewish refugees most notably by the US - Britain was the most welcoming, by the way, taking 80,000 in the UK and probably around the same in Palestine, despite Arab hostility.
Can we include Poland to this discussion? Thank you.
However if i say that regarding Oswiecim or Belzec for instance i could go to prison for two years?
No, you wouldn't; not in Poland and not in any other country in the world.
Fortunately Eichmann (the logistics man behind the Holocaust) had been equally efficient when the policy was forced exile of Germany's Jews - which is why 76% of them survived
I wonder will ultra nationalist Poles in 40 years time deny their present Islamophobia and anti-immigrant stance? And accuse people who bring up the past of being anti-Polish.
Like trying to deny this. The slogans were considerably less sophisticated: "God honour the motherland," &#******** the EU" and "Hands off Polish land". Demonstrators tossed red smoke flares in the centre of avenues as they marched from the city's Stalin-era Palace of Culture to the old town. A young man next to a poster claiming that Muslim immigrants constitute a "Trojan pig" unleashed a profanity-laced screed about the educational opportunities offered to Ukrainian youth, then noted that these "Arabs have mobile phones, so they're not poor". His marching companions agreed.
The rhetoric was harsher still at a rally in Gdansk, where demonstrators chanted "We will do to you what Hitler did to the Jews."
Milky is a troll, I feel like I am talking to Jerzy Urban or Grzegorz Piotrowski or some other Russian/Jewish/Nazi agent. This discussion has nothing to do with an exchange of a valid evidence/argument or and opinion in a civil way.
Anyone who throws :"God, Honor, Motherland" in a face of a Pole is a raging ultra-communist who hates the idea of a Polish independent state. Milky exposing his extreme views is living proof that there is a training center that made it's main objective to viciously attack anything that smells Polish. The same people who invite anti-fascists with knuckle dusters on Polish Independence Day and strive for the past 70 years to keep truth and Polish spirit under their boot.
I have news for you. There is a country that is ultra nationalistic, ultra racist, that kills 10 Arabs for every one of theirs ( makes me think of times when it used to be 100 Poles for 1killed German) and has jails filled with them. A country that while being the most advanced and the richest in the region impoverished and turned into hell lives in the neighboring states. The same country that has the lowest rate of interracial marriages and the most strict immigration policies, the one that bars Jewish-Palestinian couples from settling there as well as their own messianic Jews.
Who is a moderator? If Varsovian's comment is not about Poland then what is? History of Poland did not occur in the vacuum.
Lyzko, David Irving and Jan Gross can shake each others hands. He has many, many more opponents across the world then supporters and his work has absolutely nothing to do with digging up facts (he admits it in his interview with Monika Olejnik) but to spread his personal spin on the wartime reality that fits his biased theories.
I am also convinced that WJC with it's insatiable appetite for money (Poland will have to sell all of it's national forests to meet the unreasonable restitution demands) as well as the upcoming parliament elections in PL and Russian westward advancement are behind this sudden eruption of concentrated, systemic effort to discredit Poland.
Anyone who throws :"God, Honor, Motherland" in a face of a Pole is a raging ultra-communist who hates the idea of a Polish independent state.
That would depend on whether the Pole in question has even the vaguest understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the slightest clue as to what the word 'honour' means, and of course if he has any experience of doing anything to help his motherland; given that one look at the vast majority of the scum who take part in event such as the march of morons on 11 November shows that they have none of those (and that they most probably view Holocaust Memorial Day as a day to morn that Hitler didn't kill more Jews), anyone is perfectly entitled to throw the phrase back in their faces.
Oh, Harry maybe you need to look in the mirror more closely before you call anybody a scum. For someone who supposedly lives in Poland and supposedly has a Polish wife and a child you spend an awful lot of time on this forum spewing hatful remarks. How come you don't go out, get together with family members, have fun and enjoy life like every average Pole? In that respect despite torturous past Poland features some of the best restaurants, cafés, dance clubs. Theatre and opera repertoires are diverse and abundant. Every city features a symphony, musical concerts, festivals of all sorts and forms take place. The cultural life in Poland is more vibrant then I have ever seen anywhere in the Western world and I have been to quite a few places. There is something for everyone to satisfy even the most sophisticated tastes. Besides Poles like most Slavs love to get together, spend quality time with each other and enjoy deep, heart-to-heart conversations. My guess is you don't live in Poland and don't know what it means to be part of a Polish family.
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Harry -That would depend on whether the Pole in question has even the vaguest understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the slightest clue as to what the word 'honour' means, and of course if he has any experience of doing anything to help his motherland; given that one look at the vast majority of the scum who take part in event such as the march of morons on 11 November shows that they have none of those (and that they most probably view Holocaust Memorial Day as a day to morn that Hitler didn't kill more Jews), anyone is perfectly entitled to throw the phrase back in their faces.
God, Honor, Motherland was a motto occurring on Polish military banners since Napoleonic legions. Only Russians and communists had a problem with it. Watch who you associate yourself with. Bratwurst Boy who would gladly turn you into a sausage or soap and... Russians for whom pogroms were part of daily routine.
Don't come whining to Poles to rescue your sorry butt when your affiliates fail you.
God, Honor, Motherland was a motto occurring on Polish military banners since Napoleonic legions. Only Russians had a problem with it. Watch who you associate yourself with. Bratwurst Boy who would gladly turn you into a sausage or soap and... Russians for whom pogroms and purges were part of nearly daily routine.
Don't come whining to Poles to rescue your sorry butt when your affiliates fail you.
Anyone can come to the march of Nov 11, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, atheist if they want to give respect to the brave and selfless people who gave their lives under the banner "Bog, Honor, Motherland" for freedom of Polish people oppressed for 123 years and those who fought Germans and Russians again in WWII and those persecuted by the communist regime.
@Dziewanna Dziewanna, you are not in error, nowhere. Your presentation of the odious behavior of the Jews during the war, towards Poland and their Polish Jewish citizens deserves to be completed.
These are the famous lists of Jewish converts to Catholicism requested by the German occupier. The Judenrats quickly and willingly provided, with great zeal, a complete list (names, addresses) of those Jews who lived on the Aryan side, so many lives that could have been saved. Sadly, their fellow Jews once again contributed to the genocide of so many of these innocent Jews.
PS. Polish priests cathégorically refused to give the names of baptized Jews. They said they never had such lists.
I must beg to differ here. Comparing the Judenraete with Jews in or even after wartime Poland is a specious argument at best, not worthy of our inteligence to say the least!
Home / History / remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland
