remember, forget, forgive, blame ... Holocaust Memorial Day in Poland

I think you're wrong here, Torq. Google for 'Ruhrpolen' and you will find for example, that in 1871 there were roughly 500,000 ethnic Poles living in the German Ruhrgebiet alone.


Poles helped the Germans enthusiastically? You're kidding, are you?

In 1939 there were about 70 million people in the III Reich, right?

So if your ratio is correct then it means you had an army of 700 million willing helpers
to aid you in your task of killing Jews, Slavs and whoever else was destined to perish.

That's more than the entire population of Europe at that time... but if it makes you
feel better :-)

Like Poznań with its Polish built old town?:)


Oh yes like the Jagiellonian university in Kraków, oh wait thats one of the old Polish capitals, or maybe you meant the Zamość Univeristy? Or the Lwów university? Or Lublin schools, or Warsaw universities? Oh wait they're all Polish:)


You have no idea how fast Nathan can run :(

On a more serious note while i know you're not a Nazi apologetist the fact is BdV is ears deep in former Nazi members and Steinbach herself mingled with them freely knowing who they were.

Lol, in which direction?

The Wiesenthal center gives out a number of 200.000 german sick *****....not 70 Millions.

Now if we add every eastern peasant with a shovel we would get at least as many...



Rofl
As if it isn't quite easy to translate your crap....polish idiocy showing again?

And yes, I actually like Poles and call Torqi my chum!

Oh - don't make it too easy for me, please ;) I didn't mean the most prominent of them.

Let's add those who voted for the Nazis, all the SS-men, Gestapo, police, office clerks,
administration authorities, army officers and soldiers and all the other groups involved in
the Holocaust. We should end up with a higher number of sickf**ks, right?


What's "polish idiocy"? Explain, please :-)


We must be the strangest pair of chums in Europe, but hey - why not! *buys beer for BB*

Yes, that's the numbers....200.000 german sick fucks.....and Wiesenthal had decades to get his numbers rights.
They wanted them all, not only the top dogs...till down to the little bureaucrates and Einsatzgruppen-alcoholic!


Nikaish idiocy...more precisely...


At least as much...but think about it.
I once watched a horrifying movie about the massacre in Babi Jar...around the poor sods on their way to the place where they would shot there was maybe a handful of german soldiers...but hundreds of brutal Ukrainians/whatever with clubs beating the Jews....many more than the Germans.

yeah, me too I'd like to know. Can't find it on Wikipedia....

Now why doesn't that one surprise me...


thanks :)

I got thirsty! ;)

BB you've created a brand new term just for me! Oh thank you. Not only are you funny but also sweet!

Given that Wiesenthal has incomplete records and goes after killers of Jews only thats woefully incomplete.

I am NOT funny and I am NOT sweet!!! *stomps foot*

ask Torq


Well, that's about the Germans...as you have seen the institute has it's eyes on non-Germans still too!

I do confirm that - you are not funny at all and certainly not sweet
(but still - the closest to a German friend I've ever had lol ;)).

*off to watch some handball*

Ditto (Polish of course)

I'm leaving here too....need to build up steam again...enjoying my beer

*waves*

I generally view Wiesenthal as populist, they're a bit like Spanish Inquisition branding people (including Germans) left right and center.

Sadly he isn't: just do research on the number of Polish Jews who were willing to help the Nazis. If some Polish Jews helped, what do you think some Polish Catholics did?


Львівський національний університет імені Івана Франка is Polish? That's a good joke! That Ivan Franko National University of Lviv is Polish!


You read Ordinary Men? For the small scale shootings it tended to be Germans doing the trigger work and some locals helping out if needed. For the larger scale stuff it was always the Trawnikis doing the trigger work with Germans taking care of the logistics.

Ukrainians didn't kill a single Jew in Babi Jar. There was an auxillary unit of some sick Ukrainian f*cks, who took luggage from the Jews and some did kick those who walked slowly, but neither of them executed a single person.



I am glad they show some movies in Germany to lift the feeling of guilt from the growing young generations. To accuse others, like you did with Iwan Demyaniuk, who was freed by Israel court system, but is now tried in Germany for the 3rd time. But what do you want others to think of Babi Jar? Nazi Germany murdered 34,000 Jews there! And you call it:


It was some handful...



They murdered everyone, even people in hospitals. No one shot there was done by a Ukrainian.
I can understand your frustration that you might feel from the pressure from all sides, which touches innocent Germans that have nothing to do with it and want to move on, but it doesn't mean that you have to carve out and twist facts to make your point.

Hey spicola... now that you have had your time in the spotlight, how about you remind the audience now, about how many Aboriginals your proud Spaniards slaughtered? How many of them were unarmed women, children? You're a hypocritical dumb ass. Your country is the sh$t of Europe right now. Good luck being subjugated by Arabs, you dirtbag.

This is true to a certain extent, but it also has to be said that most of mainland Europe was occupied by Germany so in most if not all cases, the authorities didnt have much of a choice with regards to the deportation of Jews. I will say in defence of your avergage German, that a lot of Germans saved the lives of a lot Jewish people.

Without them kicking and beating them, preventing them from fleeing, leading them straight to the Germans who shot them blah blah blah...

Again, I'm not the one denying our part!


No twisting necessary...


Look at a map of Europe Shelley,

The german army was busy fighting, the Germans had only so many people available for occupational duty...without willing helpers and collaborateurs everywhere they could have done not much!

The Germans were NOT the almighty "Übermenschen" ;)

No but they were people with the guns, if you didnt obey you went to the same cattle wagon as Jews.

I've thought about that...take this movie about Babi Jar...a handfull of german soldiers with MG's against hundreds of hundreds/thousands of Jews and Ukrainians Auxiliaries...how many could they had shot if they had decided to fight?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

So you have hundreds or thousands of frightened people from all over the place and you expect them to fight for their lives with military cohesion and organisation?

Thats ignoring the fact that a few heavy machineguns could easily slaughter the lot of them and as i can recall there were more then a few at Babi Jar.

In regards to Babi Jar, a police battalion company, an SS company, SD, SiPo, all in all more then 400 Germans with 2 armored cars, an unspecified number of MG-43s and MP-4s and you wanted a bunch of frightened women and children to fight for their lives?

Also Ukrainians only herded people to the general location they didnt do the shooting, no one denies there was collaboration but it was not as you put it, an European project, it was planned extremination carried out by military elements of the German nation with loud or quiet approval of much of the nation itself.

All of them. What did I win?

More than they actually did???
We are talking about 30.000 Jews here...


Not only the german nation....that's the point here!
The Jews had not many friends as they needed them.
That's the main gripe I have with these McCoys of this world....

Lets assume 40 of them had MP-4s, thats over 1200 bullets that can be shot in a period of about 5 seconds, add to this MG-42s with 250 bullet belts, lets say there were 8, thats 2000 bullets in about 20 seconds.

So only the soldiers with automatic weapons were capable of discharging 3200 bullets in under 30 seconds, reloading time took about 3 seconds.

That should answer your question.


German nation made it possible and save for a handfull of tiny states like Slovakia or Hungary the occupied territories did not help Germans in an organized way, help if indeed came was happening either by collaborators who were few in regards to total population or under German guns.

So no it was not an "European project" it was an all the way German project.

Cut the crap...all of them just running away into the near woods would had been enough.
Sure the Germans would had shot some but never all...not even most...

How would they all run away in an organized fashion? Telepathy? People were frightened and under the gun, even when facing death our human instinct is to stay put when this happens.

Also that might be your explanation:

All were driven in groups of ten down a corridor of SS soldiers, and then shot at the edge of the Babi Yar gorge. The crowd was large enough that most of the men, women, and children could not have known what was happening until it was too late

Imagine there had been no help...no pointing out of the Jews to the Germans, no hunting them for the Germans, no beating them and delivering them to the shootings, not rounding them up on the trainstations at german orders...

Nothing would change, Germans still had access to popuation census, still controlled the flow of food and still had ample garrison forces to take care of things.


Well one thing that would change would be a much higher casuality rate among non-Jewish populations since refusing to carry orders or giving a Jew a slice of bread typically earned a bullet for you and your family, if you're asking could a greater number of Jews be saved? Unlikely, Germans controlled all regions that could facilitate shelter and food to an extent that only a few more individuals could be saved.

Now if we're talking about Hungary, Slovakia or Romania these were indeed German-local projects but again they were made possible and facilitated by Germans, without them they just wouldnt happen.