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Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago?


Palivec - | 380
7 May 2011 #61
Anyway here's the pics, they're from 1480 to 1570/1600 the period when Poland was naming the game.

Must be a different game, since Swiss mercenaries and Landsknechts dominated much of Central and Western Europe back then.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #62
The helberd/pike tactic was brought into Switzerland from Poland by mercenaries who observed it then, admittedly Poles used it in a different manner not using a pike at all (hence winning).

Poland did shape the pike and shot era in Germany, Austria and Sweden chiefly because these countries developed armies to win against polish tactics, untill 1620s Poland stayed ahead, then Sweden came up with a different firing solution for its musketeers, started using fortifications and the polish dominance ended.

Lets try and post em again.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
7 May 2011 #63
Why are the polish inventors nowhere mentioned?

Because modern historiography begins in XIX century, and Poland did not existed as an independent entity in XIX century. Same goes for XX century leave or take a few years, and all that informative stuff about Polish input or influences is not properly exposed, often not even mentioned.

Ah, and nowadays people write they information based on books not on sources.And even so, most of the sources has been destroyed by time, wars and malicious intend - for example Prussians melted most of Poland Crown Jewels.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #64
Polish infantry tactics from the early 1500s.

The company was set up in 5 interlocked ranks, the front rank was where the seargants (commanders of the 5 man team) were set up, wearing plate armor and using double handed swords they prevented pikemen from approaching.

Behind and between the seargants are the pavise bearers, also armed with plate armor they exchanged their double handed sword for a bastard or a polehammer, using their large shields (pavises) they protected the hand gunners behind them.

Third rank is composed of handgunners, unarmoured soldiers with either crossbows or handguns who shot at the enemy from behind the back of the seargants and pavisers.

Behind them are halberdiers who would move up front to protect the unit from the cavalry charge or use their long poles to thrust their halberds between the heads of their comrades adding an effective third row of fighting men.

Yet behind them is the second line of handgunners who exchange with the first one when the first one is loading.

That should tell you where the german doppelsoldners or the Swiss pike/halberd tactics came from.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #65
Because modern historiography begins in XIX century, and Poland did not existed as an independent entity in XIX century.

Nun ja...alot of countries are only quite recent developments, not only Poland. Even then the naming in the language of the invention commonly got adopted by the followers.

for example Prussians melted most of Poland Crown Jewels.

But it still was called "Poland crown jewels" ? ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppels%C3%B6ldner

Doppelsöldner (Double mercenary) were Landsknechts in 16th-century Germany who were prepared to fight in the front line, taking an extra risk, in exchange for double payment. The stated ratio was that one Landsknecht in four would be a Doppelsöldner. A small number of the Doppelsöldner of each company were usually issued with firearms.

Nothing polish :(

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd

The halberd was the primary weapon of the early Swiss armies in the 14th and early 15th centuries.[3] Later on, the Swiss added the pike to better repel knightly attacks and roll over enemy infantry formations, with the halberd, hand-and-a-half sword, or the dagger known as the Schweizerdolch being used for closer combat.

Nothing Polish either :(
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #66
Nun ja...alot of countries are only quite recent developments, not only Poland. Even then the naming in the language of the invention commonly got adopted by the followers.

The point is that of communism, Poland being in the "wrong" team got the cold shoulder in history books for decades.


  • Polish infantry 1502

  • Polish infantry 1570s
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
7 May 2011 #67
Nun ja...alot of countries are only quite recent developments, not only Poland. Even then the naming in the language of the invention commonly got adopted by the followers.

What about the sabre (szabla/szablya)?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #68
The point is that of communism, Poland being in the "wrong" team got the cold shoulder in history books for decades.

You definitely should start to attack such wiki articles....there is no better way to spread your facts.
Alot less people will look into your polish wiki so you better take it up with the english main wiki.

It really pays off!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #69
Nothing polish :(

Not a legend see the picture again, thats exactly how the Poles used the swords originally, of course the polish protoplasts to the doppels were also wearing plate armor, the doppels were not so their survivability was kinda lacking (hence forlorn hope name).

You definitely should start to attack such wiki articles....there is no better way to spread your facts.
Alot less people will look into your polish wiki so you better take it up with the english main wiki.

It really pays off!

Its a bother really and i dont really mind if someone says he invented a sword before someone else.

What about the sabre (szabla/szablya)?

Not a polish invention, once BB laughed at me when i compared late medieval an reinessane polish military to Romans in that while they invented quitea few tactics and weapons the real forte of polish military thought was taking various things from other countries and making them better, often a lot.

For example the pavise was originally an italian invention but before Poland no one would ever think of using it to provide a mobile shield wall for actuall fighting infantry, two handed swords have been around for a long time but no one ever came up with an idea of dressing up a guy in plate armor and giving him a sword to break pikes, et cetera.



Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #70
What about the sabre (szabla/szablya)?

Wiki :)

The sabre first appeared in Western Europe with the arrival of the Hungarians (Magyarok) in the 10th century. The original type of Polish sabre was the Karabela. The name was derived from the Turkish words Kara, meaning dark, and bela, meaning curse. The Karabela was worn by the Polish, Lithuanian, and Ukrainian nobility class, the Szlachta.

Its a bother really

Well...your decision, but I think there is no better and easier way to tell your facts...people are not that inclined to plunge into polish-language thick dry books when they can have a look at the wiki article for their question much easier. You would reach millions world wide easily.

It's a worthy fight I think...

once BB laughed at me

...it was more likely a friendly smile.... :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #71
Thats not to say Poland did not improve upon Szablas, the Karabela type developed in Poland is even today the best weighted weapon next to japanese Katanas and just as sharp without added brittlenes and lenghty production period.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
7 May 2011 #72
Exactly, BratwurstBoy.

Experts in the history of military could give more facts, however nobody doubts that Polish Hussars (equivalent of today's regiment of tanks) and the szabla are Polish military inventions.
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
7 May 2011 #73
The reasons of the fall of The Commonwealth of Both Nations are so simple if we look at the Poland of today:

Not true.
The true fall of Poland was because Poland could not quite conquere Russia. That lead to the Deluge where both Russia & then Sweden lead to Poland's demise.

If I could turn back time I think Poland & Rusisia should have been allies. Poland & Russia through out history fought the same enemies.

Poland & Russia fought Mongols, Tatars, Ottoman Turks, Vikings, Germans, Austrians, ect ect together.

I think that Poland & Russia could have united.

If I could go back in time I would have Poland attack Prussia & Teutons & Austria instead of attacking Russia.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #74
Russia and Germany are not historical enemies actually, quite the contrary...

I think that Poland & Russia could have united.

With the capital in Warsaw I presume? ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #75
The true fall of Poland was because Poland could not quite conquere Russia. That lead to the Deluge where both Russia & then Sweden lead to Poland's demise.

The deluge was triggered by Polands conflict with Sweden.

If I could turn back time I think Poland & Rusisia should have been allies. Poland & Russia through out history fought the same enemies.
Poland & Russia fought Mongols, Tatars, Ottoman Turks, Vikings, Germans, Austrians, ect ect together.

Russia wanted to expand into Poland, there was no way of forging an alliance as long as both countries were powerfull.

Russia and Germany are not historical enemies actually, quite the contrary...

Yes they are, they developed a business relationship over partitioning Poland but otherwise every time they shared borders in one form or another it led to war.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
7 May 2011 #76
The true fall of Poland was because Poland could not quite conquere Russia. That lead to the Deluge where both Russia & then Sweden lead to Poland's demise.

Pardon me? The Deluge ended in 1667, and the Vienna victory happened in 1683, with the peak of Polish military power ever.
Alliance with Russia was never sought throughout the history of Poland.
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
7 May 2011 #77
If you were seriously concerned about the fate of the Serbian population of Kosovo, you'd fight for recognition of the Silesian nationality, as the principle of protecting minority rights.

Kosovo was the heart of Serbia.
Then when Ottoman Turks invaded then alot of Albanians ended up spreading into Kosovo & with Albanians having higher birth rates soon Albanians became the majority.

If Turks become the majority of Berlin & decide to become a new Country? Then should Nato Bomb Germans & Say that Berlin is a Turkish country because it is majority Turkish?

Seems to me you are a German bootlicker. The Serbian crow guy said he would stand up to Germany over Silesia. Silesia is Polish lands.

It is not Germany. Germans took over Silesia in the 1790's!

Even alot of Border Silesia Towns in Czech like Ostrava much of Ostrava considers themselves to be Polish & Not Czech!

Pardon me? The Deluge ended in 1667, and the Vienna victory happened in 1683, with the peak of Polish military power ever.
Alliance with Russia was never sought throughout the history of Poland.

The Deluge was the begining of the end for Poland!
It had weakened Poland.

The Battle of Vienna Poland was still powerful but falling fast.

To look at the Partition of Poland.

You can see that it starts with the Deluge. That the wars of Poland vs Russia & Also Sweden lead to the demise

Then Prussians & Austrians while Poland was fighting Russia also attacked
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #78
Yes they are, they developed a business relationship over partitioning Poland but otherwise every time they shared borders in one form or another it led to war.

We had good times too...

Then should Nato Bomb Germans & Say that Berlin is a Turkish country because it is majority Turkish?

The majority is so not turkish...and when Nato bombs who should pay them their welfare???

Even alot of Border Silesia Towns in Czech like Ostrava much of Ostrava considers themselves to be Polish & Not Czech!

A poll? A survey? A link? Anything???
Palivec - | 380
7 May 2011 #79
Seems to me you are a German bootlicker. The Serbian crow guy said he would stand up to Germany over Silesia. Silesia is Polish lands.
It is not Germany. Germans took over Silesia in the 1790's!

Even alot of Border Silesia Towns in Czech like Ostrava much of Ostrava considers themselves to be Polish & Not Czech!

Maybe you should turn off the computer for a while and read some books... it hurts. :D
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #80
My tummy hurts...from all the laughing! :)
gumishu 11 | 5,632
7 May 2011 #81
Even alot of Border Silesia Towns in Czech like Ostrava much of Ostrava considers themselves to be Polish & Not Czech!

you are very wrong on that - have you actually ever been to Ostrava?? - while Poles were once the majority in over half of Zaolzie it is not the case in any area of Zaolzie now from what I can gather

I actually think delusional people like PolskiMoc should be banned from PF
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #82
Crow is f*cking cloning himself at an exponential rate...

you are very wrong on that - have you actually ever been to Ostrava?? - while Poles were once the majority in over half of Zaolzie it is not the case in any area of Zaolzie now from what I can gather

Yeah i imagine Ostrava citizens would be suprised quite a bit.
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
7 May 2011 #83
Russia and Germany are not historical enemies actually, quite the contrary...

Germans killed 23 million Russians in WW2
I believe about 2- 6 million in WW1 ( I am not exactly sure)

Germans bought the Bolshevik revolution to Russia & Lenin who made about 28 million Russians die in the Russian Civil war + the Volga Famine by the half Volga German Lenin.

Now that is friendship. Well I guess as close as German Maniacs get to Friendship.

About as much as 50 - 60 million Russians died in about a 25 year period thanks to German swine.

All Slavs should be united against the Germ Worms
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
7 May 2011 #84
All Slavs should be united against the Germ Worms

thegermworm.blogspot.com/2011/05/large-wooden-penis-in-salt-lake-city.html

Pagans!
The Bratwurstboy connection - the mystery continues.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #85
Germans bought the Bolshevik revolution to Russia & Lenin who made about 28 million Russians die in the Russian Civil war + the Volga Famine by the half Volga German Lenin.

Really powerfull these apeworms...one half German achieves to destroy Russia...WHOA!!!!
No wonder Poland didn't stood a chance...some Über Worms!

The wooden pole is a depiction of God's penis.

Man, that must be huuuuge!
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
7 May 2011 #86
Kosovo was the heart of Serbia.

You may even call me a crypto-German if you like.

You are saying Kosovo was the heart of Serbia. The word "was" is crucial.
Upper Silesia was Czech and it was German. It is not anymore. Many Upper Silesians fought for Poland in the Silesian Uprisings but many Upper Silesians were fighting for Germany, too

Please do not speak for the Zaolzie people, either. Have you ever met any Zaolzian? I have. Same as the Silesian, the Zaolzian are their own people. They speak Czech at work, they managed to have Polish street names in Cesky Tesin, and they speak their own lingo (neither Czech nor Polish) at home.

Silesian and Zaolzian just need to be left alone from any nationalists; they suffered from nationalists too long.
Koala 1 | 332
7 May 2011 #87
Bratwurst Boy, are you really German? I find it incredible that you tolerate this mud-throwing. Anyway, ignore this extreme nationalists. The way Europe is nowadays, we should all become like brothers for each other. Powinniśmy stać się dla siebie braćmi. Wir sollen Bruder ein fuer einander werden. :) (I hope it's correct, been a while since I studied German:))
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
7 May 2011 #88
Bratwurst Boy, are you really German? I find it incredible that you tolerate this mud-throwing

Well...I now can differentiate between real people and nutters! Poles are okay...Germans have their nutters too.
Ironside 50 | 10,907
7 May 2011 #89
the best sabre ever :

Alliance with Russia was never sought throughout the history of Poland.

No true.
PolskaMoc change your name to CommonNutter
gumishu 11 | 5,632
7 May 2011 #90
I was no expert on cold weapon - just read somewhere that epee( or small sword) as a piercing and not cutting weapon was superior to sabre in dueling - however some English officer and fencer showed in XIX th century that he could defend himself from any attack made with a small sword using his sabre


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