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POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country?


jon357 66 | 17,033
10 Nov 2012 #661
I think we are putting more emphasis on the concept 'west/central/east Europe' than we should be.

There's something in that, however the Central Europe that some people wish Poland was part of is the old Mitteleuropa, bits of Germany, bits of The Empire etc - you can still find it in Prague, Vienna, even Berlin, however mostly only ghosts remain.

It's really amusing how some people can't accept certain things :D

So you're still pretending you think Polish food isn't firmly within the Eastern European tradition?
Wulkan - | 3,250
10 Nov 2012 #662
So you're still pretending you think Polish food isn't firmly within the Eastern European tradition?

there is a bunch of traditional polish dishes, some of them are tipical slavic and some not, just get over it....

the Central Europe that some people wish Poland was part of is the old Mitteleuropa,

Geography

The German academic Ständiger Ausschuss für geographische Namen (Permanent Committee on Geographical Names) at the Federal Agency for Cartography and Geodesy refers to a territory roughly bounded by the river Rhine in the west, the Bug in the east, the North Sea and the Baltic coast in the north, as well as the Alps and the Adriatic Sea in the south. The area is covered by the modern states of:

Austria
Croatia
Czech Republic
Germany
Hungary
Liechtenstein
Poland
Slovakia
Slovenia
Switzerland

jon357 66 | 17,033
10 Nov 2012 #663
and some not

And some no doubt quite exotic. The everyday stuff is firmly in the Eastern European tradition.

Just get over it.

German

The 'Eastern Territories' of Germany, you mean?

Mittleeuropa didn't extend further into Poland than the Austrian zabór. Ever. And even then, only the cities.
Wulkan - | 3,250
10 Nov 2012 #664
The everyday stuff is firmly in the Eastern European tradition.

It's really amusing how terribly wrong you are

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cuisine

The 'Eastern Territories' of Germany, you mean?

No, I meant mentioned previously by you "mitteleuropa", you get lost very easly...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitteleuropa

Europe-
jon357 66 | 17,033
10 Nov 2012 #665
It's really amusing how terribly wrong you are

Maybe you should try harder. Perhaps you don't ever eat pierogi, kasza, gołąbki, kielbasa, cabbage soup, and countless other things, or even drink vodka? Perhaps not.

"щи да каша - пища наша"

mitteleuropa

You do seem very very confused about the concept of Mittleuropa. I suspect you actually half believe that Poland isn't in Eastern Europe. That or trying to troll.

By the way, your 'use' of wikipedia is somewhat selective.
Eastern Europe

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Statistics_Division
Wulkan - | 3,250
10 Nov 2012 #666
You do seem very very confused about the concept of Mittleuropa

I can assure you that I am not.

So you don't ever eat pierogi, kasza, gołąbki, kielbasa, cabbage soup and countless other things, or even drink vodka?

From Polish food I usualy eat schabowy and bigos and like most Poles I'm a beer drinker.
jon357 66 | 17,033
10 Nov 2012 #667
I can assure you that I am not

You are, alas, mistaken.

I usualy eat schabowy and bigos

Not a very varied diet.

I'm a beer drinker.

Not 'Central European' wines?
Wulkan - | 3,250
10 Nov 2012 #668
You are, alas, mistaken

whatever

Not a very varied diet

perhaps

Not 'Central European' wines?

No, I'm not fan of any wines
jon357 66 | 17,033
10 Nov 2012 #669
whatever

An eloquent response.



Wulkan - | 3,250
10 Nov 2012 #670
sure: Poland and European regions

Europe and Poland
Paulina 10 | 1,693
1 Jan 2013 #671
I don't feel offended :) There's nothing offensive about being Eastern European.
Although I guess it would be probably more precise to call it Central European language as Poland is located in Central Europe:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/466681/Poland

And Polish is West Slavic language:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language
britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/467443/Polish-language

But impressive post altogether, kcharlie :)
gumishu 11 | 5,603
1 Jan 2013 #672
Please try not to offend Polish people by suggesting we are Eastern Europeans, that's what the anti-Polish trolls do on here.

this is being oversensitive - and it implies that Eastern Europeans are somehow inferior
berni23 7 | 379
1 Jan 2013 #673
Please try not to offend Polish people by suggesting we are Eastern Europeans

What is wrong with being Eastern European?
Ethnically, linguistically and culturally Poland is still Eastern Europe. ;)
zetigrek
1 Jan 2013 #674
still Eastern Europe.

still? what does "still" mean? Are you creating some fake divisions?

Berni your're not the one to judge whether slavic languages belongs to east or west, it's a silly conception of yours. Also culturally I don't feel very kin to Russians or Ukrainians or anyone else. Only a foreigner who could make such statement, when I thought your a Pole living in Germany.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
1 Jan 2013 #675
Ethnically, linguistically and culturally Poland is still Eastern Europe. ;)

Actually, linguistically and culturally Poland never was Eastern European. It seems you're confused by the Cold War division of Europe. I guess that's why you wrote "still" :)
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
1 Jan 2013 #676
FWIW the vast majority of Britons I know of consider Poland "eastern Europe", for whatever reason. I can't think of one who would know it is in fact mostly central Europe.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
1 Jan 2013 #677
I am not surprised, British people know very little about countries East of Germany :)
Perhaps this is the place to get them educated a bit? ;) If they are willing, that is...
zetigrek
1 Jan 2013 #678
FWIW the vast majority of Britons I know of consider Poland "eastern Europe", for whatever reason.

That's why I don't mind bein called like that but when someone makes some twisted theories on that, I just can't handle it. It's such a load of rubbish, and thinly veiled chauvinism...
berni23 7 | 379
1 Jan 2013 #679
Berni your're not the one to judge whether slavic languages belongs to east or west, it's a silly conception of yours.

Are you claiming Slavic is a western language?

when I thought your a Pole living in Germany.

And that didnt change just because its a new year.

culturally Poland never was Eastern European.

Again although cartographically correct, Poland is and was culturally much closer to its eastern neighbors then its western and if one would divide Europe into regions based on that Poland would belong to Eastern Europe.

I guess that's why you wrote "still"

I was indeed hinting at that, but specifically didnt mention recent political divisions.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
1 Jan 2013 #680
Again although cartographically correct nowadays, Poland is and was culturally much closer to its eastern neighbors then its western

Yet it's different enough to not be considered Eastern European. Poland is neither West nor East. It's in between, not only geographically.

and if one would divide Europe into regions based on that Poland would belong to Eastern Europe.

Yes, an ignorant would that, I imagine ;)

I was indeed hinting at that,

You see, there you go.

but specifically didnt mention recent political divisions.

What "recent political divisions"? You mean Poland being in the EU?
zetigrek
1 Jan 2013 #681
Poland is and was culturally much closer to its eastern neighbors then its western

Why do you thinks so? Bacause of gay marriage?

if one would divide Europe into regions based on that Poland would belong to Eastern Europe.

If. What for divide it?

And that didnt change just because its a new year.

And you feel superior because of living in Germany. How nice of you. Another complex ridden Pole.

Are you claiming Slavic is a western language?

There is no such language like "Slavic"

I was indeed hinting at that, but specifically didnt mention recent political divisions.

What do you mean?
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #682
Why do you thinks so? Bacause of gay marriage?

Nothing to do with your problems, its a cultural fact.

Yet it's different enough to not be considered Eastern European. Poland is neither West nor East. It's in between, not only geographically.

Please suggest your theory of Inbetween Europe to linguists and ethnologists then.

Yes, an ignorant would that, I imagine ;)

If. What for divide it?

Scientists tend to do that.

There is no such language like "Slavic"

I meant the whole ensemble. You still havent answered the question.

What do you mean?

What "recent political divisions"? You mean Poland being in the EU?

No, i meant the political division after WW2.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #683
Poland is and was culturally much closer to its eastern neighbors then its western

Actually, even this statement isn't quite correct, I think... As far as spoken language and ethnicity are concerned we're closer to Slavs in the East than Romance and Germanic nations in the West, North and South or Hungarians and Greeks.

However, we share the same alphabet (Latin) and religion (Catholic) with the West, as opposed to Eastern Slavs whose alphabet (Cyrillic script) and religion (Orthodox Christianity) stem from the Byzantine culture, not the Latin one.

You've heard about the Great Schism?:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

Take a look at Polish architecture, for example. It always embraced Western styles while adding some minor local details. There was no Gothic style in Russia, for example. Russia didn't embrace the dramatic style of Baroque architecture either, because why would it do that? There was no Counter-Reformation there.

Polish church:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kosciol_mariacki_krakow.jpg
Russian church:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moscow_July_2011-4a.jpg

And where would you put the poor Hungarians? ;) They're not Slavic, so...?

No, i meant the political division after WW2.

No that "recent", is it?
And not correct anymore, either. If the Cold War division put Poland in the minds of Westerners in Eastern Europe (or rather outside of Europe, as at the time of joining the EU we were told by the Western media, that we were coming back to EUROPE, as if the EU was Europe lol :)))) then where are we now? Politically we're in the EU. So what does it make us? lol (no that I care, to be honest)
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #684
What does religion, architecture or the political system have to do with the language and ethnicity?

Since we are quoting wiki:

No that "recent", is it?

Depends what you compare it to.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #685
What does religion, architecture

Alphabet, religion, art - it's something of which culture consists of. In this case Latin vs Byzantine.

the political system

Well, you were hinting at the political division after WW2, weren't you? So maybe you'll explain it to me?

to do with the language and ethnicity?

Wait a minute, so you divide Europe into the East and the West solely on the basis of language and ethnicity? o_O
If so, then where do you put Hungary?

Since we are quoting wiki:

Well, I see that in one article Wiki puts Poland in Central Europe and in another in Eastern (or, at least, the West Slavic languages) :)

OK then, Sorbian is a West Slavic language - does it make Eastern Germany... Eastern Europe?

Depends what you compare it to.

True, but Poland joining the EU is definitely more recent than Poland being on "the wrong side of the Iron Curtain" :)
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #686
Alphabet, religion, art - it's something of which culture consists of. In this case Latin vs Byzantine.

We could go into details of the Polish Commonwealth, Polish lands in the east etc., but its late, im tired and i will take that:

.

As far as spoken language and ethnicity are concerned we're closer to Slavs in the East than Romance and Germanic nations in the West, North and South or Hungarians and Greeks.

Well, you were hinting at the political division after WW2, weren't you? So maybe you'll explain it to me?

I was indeed hinting at that, but specifically didnt mention recent political divisions.

I dont know whats not to understand. I was stating that i dont mean the political term of Eastern Europe but

Ethnically, linguistically and culturally Poland is still Eastern Europe.

Well, I see that in one article Wiki puts Poland in Central Europe and in another in Eastern (or, at least, the West Slavic languages) :)
OK then, Sorbian is a West Slavic language - does it make Eastern Germany... Eastern Europe?

You are drifting off again.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #687
We could go into details of the Polish Commonwealth, Polish lands in the east etc., but its late and im tired.

We could, but that was only a part of Polish history - Poland is around 1000 years old. And those lands in the East aren't "Polish" anymore anyway.

im tired and i will take that:

And you'll ingore the rest of the sentence? :):

However, we share the same alphabet (Latin) and religion (Catholic) with the West, as opposed to Eastern Slavs whose alphabet (Cyrillic script) and religion (Orthodox Christianity) stem from the Byzantine culture, not the Latin one.

The division between the East and the West came into being long ago, at the time of the East-West Schism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

I dont know whats not to understand. I was stating that i dont mean the political terms of Eastern and Western Europe but

OK, sorry, I've misunderstood.

You are drifting off again.

No, I'm not, actually. You're not answering my questions.
I've asked where would you put Hungary?
Or Romania? Or Estonia? Lithuania? Latvia?

Ethnically, linguistically and culturally - what are those countries? After all, ethnically and linguistically Poles have pretty much nothing to do with them. So?
berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #688
What do other countries have to do with your challenge of me saying:

Ethnically, linguistically and culturally Poland is still Eastern Europe.

Im sure it would make an interesting discussion, but another day.
Paulina 10 | 1,693
2 Jan 2013 #689
What do other countries have to do with your challenge of me saying:

LOL

I'm trying to understand why do you put Poland "ethnically, linguistically and culturally" in Eastern Europe :)

OK, I'll ask a very simple question then: which countries would you put in Eastern Europe? Poland and...?

Im sure it would make an interesting discussion, but another day.

I'll be waiting patiently then :)

And Wiki again: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language

Over the course of centuries, the vocabulary and literary style of Russian have also been influenced by Western and Central European languages such as Greek, Latin, Polish, Dutch, German, French, and English,[27]

berni23 7 | 379
2 Jan 2013 #690
Language:

As i already said if one would name one region of Europe where a language of the Slavic family is spoken it would be Eastern Europe, since geographically it makes the most sense.

I will go into the details of your questions tomorrow. Good night.

Over the course of centuries, the vocabulary and literary style of Russian have also been influenced by Western and Central European languages such as Greek, Latin, Polish, Dutch, German, French, and English,[27]

Oh come on, i will certainly not debate if Russian is a Slavic language.


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