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Communism fell 20 years ago, Poland led the fight since WW2


jon357 74 | 22,480
5 Jun 2023 #301
so would prefer if Premier Tusk would act a bit more responsibly, given the critical time.

He's being very responsible IMO. Other politicians have the brief to deal with r*SSia. His brief is promoting democracy in Poland and advocating against authoritarian rule by the current failing regime.

you have as much control of your ruling class

That applies pretty well everywhere.
OP pawian 223 | 24,583
5 Jun 2023 #302
As you well know, protests don't do sh*t.

Actually, they can help people realise how many of them disagree to political gangsterism and thievery of PiS rulers.

A good analogy could be 1978 when a Polish cardinal became Pope JPII. In 1979 he visited communist ruled Poland. Millions came to greet him (including me :):):) and became aware of their amazing potential. A year later Solidarity revolt commenced which eventually toppled communism in Poland.

4th June March of Freedom might play a similar role in toppling those loyal heirs of communism, namely PiS.
amiga500 4 | 1,529
6 Jun 2023 #303
authoritarian rule by the current regime.

You can't make an omelette without breaking some (post-communist) eggs.
Luke1410 - | 167
6 Jun 2023 #304
The heir of communism is secular humanism, Premier Tusk's religion.
jon357 74 | 22,480
6 Jun 2023 #305
That's one of the silliest statements I've read here. If anything, the reverse is closer to the truth. The reality is that one is an economic system predicated in fairness and which has never been implemented, and the B other is simple human nature.

And what's wrong with secular humanism? Poland has a centuries old tradition of it.

breaking

Unfortunately or fortunately, eggs never really get broken in Poland by Poles.
Atch 20 | 4,155
6 Jun 2023 #306
Poles are marching through the streets completely oblivious.

You're either very young or yet another tiresome troll.

Not everything revolves around the war in Ukraine. The internal politics of a country need to be addressed. Witch-hunting by PIS in various forms has been going on for too long. They use it partly to distract attention from their incompetence and corruption and partly to work through personal vendettas against those whom they dislike or see as a threat. That kind of politics has no place in a nation working at establishing a fair and democratic system.
Luke1410 - | 167
6 Jun 2023 #307
That's a good point @jon357 about secular humanism being simple human nature I tend to agree. The comparison I was making with communism, is that secular humanism is atheist and that is also the defining feature of communism, hence the fundamentals are the same and so I think it will develop on a similar path.

So I'm a troll or a very young idiot for suggesting that Premier Tusk (and his supporters) are perhaps focusing too much on undermining the Polish government and are underestimating the severity of things happening in Ukraine and maybe taking Western support for granted too much? This is my view, it differs from yours, if offering an alternative view to yours makes me a troll then so be it.

The language you use is so strong, witch-hunting, incompetence, corruption, personal vendettas, you are just spewing judgement and hate. Nobody is perfect ffs. PiS are doing an ok job considering the scale of the opposition.
Atch 20 | 4,155
6 Jun 2023 #308
you are just spewing judgement and hate.

Rather like PIS then :)) They're incredibly vindictive and narrow minded.

I don't hate them. I'm just stating facts. How much in depth knowledge do you really have of them and their record since coming into government?
jon357 74 | 22,480
6 Jun 2023 #309
is that secular humanism is atheist

Generally no. A secular society doesn't hold any collective position about whether gods exist or don't. Individuals can and do practise religions should they wish. Imposing the beliefs of one or more religions on members of society who don't hold them is quite another matter.

Fortunately Poland is very much a secular and humanistic society (you can even buy trash books by the aggressive atheist Ayn Rand in most Polish cities) despite attempts by various politicians to change that.

atheist and that is also the defining feature of communism

The defining feature of Communism is the abolition of bourgeois property and prevent exploitation of people's labour. It is an economic system and economic systems (with the notable exception of Islamic economics and Christian Socialism) do not have religious aspects whether atheist, theist or deist.

Poland is a mostly free society. It is also a complex developed country and is a society very capable of multitasking. If thousands of people choose to attend a rally to promote democracy, there is room for that and it is very hard to know why you think that has any bearing on Poland's response to r*SSia's invasion of Ukraine.
mafketis 37 | 10,880
6 Jun 2023 #310
The defining feature of Communism is the abolition of bourgeois property and prevent exploitation of people's labour

In theory... the reality has never come close to that and mass immiseration and/or mass killings have been the norm in societies that call themselves 'communist'.
Novichok 4 | 8,272
6 Jun 2023 #311
to promote democracy,

We "promote" what exists. Like books. Poland is not a democracy so there is nothing to promote. There are no shades of gray in a true democracy. Either you have it or you don't.

"Democracy" is when the people, through legally binding referenda, directly control what the government does.
Voting for a party or party apparatchiks or electing presidents is not "democracy".
Atch 20 | 4,155
6 Jun 2023 #312
the people, through legally binding referenda, directly control what the government does.

You got that idea from me :) You didn't know anything about referendums before I mentioned having them in Ireland and off you went to your research and you discovered Switzerland. You see, you're still learning, despite your determination to atrophy in a sea of misery over impending decline and death. Go on ya good thing!
jon357 74 | 22,480
6 Jun 2023 #313
In theory... the reality has never come close

I was actually going to post that since of course Communism has never been achieved.

mass immiseration and/or mass killings

I suspect far more misery and untimely deaths have been caused in that same period by capitalism and feudalism.

A country, political party, etc., can call itself whatever it likes. Look at PiS who include both law and justice in their party's name yesthave consistently shown scant regard for either.
Novichok 4 | 8,272
6 Jun 2023 #314
You got that idea from me :)

No, dear. I called the Swiss Consulate in Chicago way before I knew that PF existed.

875 N Michigan Ave Suite 3880, Chicago, IL 60611
Phone: (312) 944-8290

In that conversation, I found out that the citizens of Switzerland stopped their government from raising taxes 5 times and let it go once.

I celebrate the absence of moronic counterarguments that the freedom to vote is democracy.

No, Western morons, the USSR, and "communist" Poland had elections, too. I voted in 1960 when I turned 18.
Atch 20 | 4,155
6 Jun 2023 #315
I called the Swiss Consulate in Chicago way before I knew that PF existed.

Why did you do that?
Novichok 4 | 8,272
6 Jun 2023 #316
I wanted to know how effective their referenda are in muzzling their government. The guy (with a nice French accent) gave me that example. If a government aka money-spending addicts can be stopped from stealing money from its citizens...wow... I was impressed.

It looks like Ireland is similar as far as referenda go. I would be proud if I were Irish. I would be even more proud if you didn't let Muslim scum into Ireland but now it's too late to undo the damage.
mafketis 37 | 10,880
6 Jun 2023 #317
Communism has never been achieved

And is fundamentally not achievable given human nature.....
Novichok 4 | 8,272
6 Jun 2023 #318
BS. Every system has its version of communism - for a few. They produce according to their abilities and get according to their needs or threats.

Lately, they call it "reparations".

Another form of communism spreading in the Western world is payless shopping. Take what you want and pay if you feel like paying. It's on us.
jon357 74 | 22,480
6 Jun 2023 #319
And is fundamentally not achievable given human nature...

I once said that to a Communist political scientist who disagreed but never really said why. One issue is that its adherents see Marx's (eminently sensible for their time and place) economic theories as unchangeable.

The harm caused by bourgeois property can be mitigated in the short term (and surprisingly easily) however for societies across the world to be more socioeconomically equitable, the forms that can take need careful revisiting as do(in the light of technological progress) the means to achieve it.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,720
6 Jun 2023 #320
And is fundamentally not achievable given human nature.....

I agree....

Any kind of 'ism might work in small, closed groups with members who did consciously chose to live that way!

Every- and anywhere else it becomes a self destructive opression, with the second generation at latest, with people who did not chose to live that way but were born into it, with rebellion/growing antagonism following...like a law of nature, human nature.
Novichok 4 | 8,272
6 Jun 2023 #321
Communism does not work because it removes private profit as evil. Period. End of the story.

Now, jon, compare my brilliant post with your pseudo-intellectual crap above.
mafketis 37 | 10,880
6 Jun 2023 #322
its adherents see Marx's (eminently sensible for their time and place) economic theories as unchangeable

He had some socio-historical insights but he was lousy at predicting (unless you change the time scale to thousands rather than tens of years and then only 'maybe').

for many adherents his writings are holy doctrine that one dassn't tamper with rather than insights limited by bias (his own and the place and time he came up with them).
jon357 74 | 22,480
6 Jun 2023 #323
He had some socio-historical insights but he was lousy at predicting

For his time and place, he was spot on. Nevertheless there was so much (like technological leaps) that he couldn't predict and as far as I know he didn't factor in any variables to his analysis of future history.

for many adherents his writings are holy doctrine

They're absolute scripture for some of them. Just as biblical fundamentalists leap through hoops trying to pretend their holy books are inerrant, some of the hardcore non-revisionists are now claiming that Marx was a transhumanist enforce his time (and ours) and that our contemporary understanding is too limited for us to grasp his insight.
OP pawian 223 | 24,583
6 Jun 2023 #324
Pope JPII visited communist ruled Poland. Millions came to greet him (including me :):):) and became aware of their amazing potential.

Check photo 2 below

4th June March of Freedom might play a similar role

Check the photo 1 below:





Luke1410 - | 167
6 Jun 2023 #325
You can take our abortion rights, and our rights to call men women and women men and whatever else, but you can never take...OUR FREEDOM!

Is Donald Tusk Poland's answer to William Wallace I wonder?
amiga500 4 | 1,529
7 Jun 2023 #326
Is Donald Tusk Poland's answer to William Wallace I wonder?

I don't think so, the comparison would only be apt if William Wallace didn't care about scotland, only power, and did englands bidding.
Luke1410 - | 167
7 Jun 2023 #327
There's 10000s of people without drinking water in Ukraine, but don't worry Donald Tusk is organising another march for freedom as we speak! The real enemy is actually PiS you know. Does he even realise there is a war on? Or is his obsession with PiS so deep that he hasn't actually noticed.
jon357 74 | 22,480
7 Jun 2023 #328
There's 10000s of people without drinking water in Ukraine, but don't worry Donald

There's thousands of little cats in Minsk who need some Whiskas but don't worry, Andrzej Duda is addressing a mob of housewuves in Częstochowa.
OP pawian 223 | 24,583
6 Aug 2023 #329
But Poles never gave up hope and many times they tried to throw off the communist yoke.

I started this thread exactly 14 years ago.

Today I can admit I created it as a sort of promotion for the Polish nation. Poles in my thread were brave, resolute anti-communists. Decent people. I consciously whitened the image.

Now, when millions of Poles vote for PiS which loves resorting to methods and styles exploited by communists, it is time to tarnish that positive image of Poles.

If communists were able to provide a good standard of life, Poles would never revolt against the system and establish Solidarity in 1980. They would still live happily in a communist country, enjoying their Polish sausages and baby Fiat cars. Communists lost only because there was a painful economic crisis and most people weren`t able to buy good sausage, let alone afford a baby Fiat. Finally they had enough. Solidarity came into being not because Poles rejected communism as a corrupt system. No, many loved it coz they received various benefits and lived off corruption which permeated all spheres of life.

Today PiS is also offering benefits which greatly contribute to high inflation. They break democratic standards, ignore the Constitution and destroy. the rule of law. However, 30% of their voters don`t mind. They think and act like homo sovieticus azholes who would vote for soviet-like communists if they still existed in Poland.
Ironside 51 | 12,474
6 Aug 2023 #330
They break democratic standards, ignore the Constitution and destroy. the rule of law.

Explain how, in deital and explain well. IF you are not able to it it means your mind operates like hamster wheel and you are happily chasing your own tail.


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