The Battle of Stalingrad saved Poland

... according to Polish historian, writer and politician, Jan Engelgard.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Engelgard

In 1941 the decision was made in the III Reich to completely destroy the Polish nation by means of executions, deportations and forced germanization. According to so-called Generalplan Ost, by the year 1952 in former Poland only 3-4 million ungermanized Poles were supposed to be left alive (all of them peasants); and those of them not willing to be Germanized would be forbidden to marry and denied access to any medical services. This so far is a part of well researched history...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Jan Engelgard claims, mentioning the works of professor Czesław Madajczyk, that it was the German loss in the battle of Stalingrad that made III Reich abandon the GO, and apparently many Poles back then (also anti-communists) understood what happened - that the fate of Poles, as a nation, was in a way decided there by the Volga river. Of course, nobody (or almost nobody) says it aloud today, because that would be stigmatised as "speaking with the voice of Kremlin".

@GefreiterKania
What's so surprising, enemies of Poland won't be in Poland's interest. If Russians had 100% free hands and No repercussions they would gladly Russianize in similar manner everywhere.

One only had to play games like DayZ to understand human mentality amongst most people, left alone to their own devices most people prefer to shoot first rather then ask questions.

Honor is not to be expected from extremists, especially when earlier only shown opportunistic tendencies.

Thinking that one of the sides is good is a logical fallacy due to the proven fact of both people wanting to eliminate Poland from the map, verbally, culturally or later on even fysically.

Only reason most Poles are more positive towards Austria is due to Austria being now the weakest, one has to remember it was among the strongest and most harsh in the beginning and initiator of starting to partition Poland by her actions. (A Catholic nation non-the less)

Germany now can be viewed positively due to being weak at the moment (compared to earlier history)

We should all be perfectly aware what kind of groups in Germany did and thought they could allow themselves to do when being in position of power. All the culture and traditions honed for those that were the strongest and most influential has been ripped off by the French Revolution.

Cards were changed, playbooks and even rules of war.

I would advice not to succumb to this logical argument, due to one fact. God stands beside us, few others have.

Austria benefitted the less form partitions (and who the most lenient towards various elements of Polishness). It was Prussia who was the main engine behind partitions because Prussia's position as a superpower pretty much depended on the destruction of Poland and incorporating the stolen Polish lands.


As usual. When you look at our history there are many events that could be considered miracles, so it looks like we have the protection from above. But will we always have it?

As for the Stalingrad battle - one way or another, it's rather easy to see that the outcome of it was very beneficial to Poland in the long run.

@GefreiterKania
Just because Prussia had better planners and Austria had to reshape herself, does not mean it would been very great in a fully Austria controlled Poland, without competition with Prussia/Russia it could possibly been a lot more harsher to be honest.

I have a few times wondered if Poland was supposed to die then be reborn only as another miracle and show of Gods grace to the entire world (try creating a similar scenario/simulation with any other nation and one quickly finds out the probability of it all)

Outcome of Stalingrad was a positive outcome to the entire world, cause we all know what would happen if Nazi Germany ruled most of Europe/Asia/Africa.

It wouldn't be restricted to labour camps and death camps during ww2, but more and possibly more sinister and dreadful technology being used.

I only have to shiver if I start to think what they could do with mass spraying drones on a large scale with acids or sirup gasses, trying to kill most of the worlds population to only have "Aryan" kind

No, it was the overall defeat of Nazi Germany during WW2 which made them drop those plans. In early 1943, when they were losing the battle at Stalingrad, they were still carrying out Ost Plan, annihiliating Polish Jews and brutally colonising Zamojskie region.

Does the historian suggest we should be grateful to Soviets winning the battle for saving Poles ??? ):)

Not necessarily.

Reason No 1
Soviets were able to win coz they had been receiving huge aid from Western countries. Without it, Germans might have eventually crushed Soviet resistance in 1942 and pushed the Red Army back far into the Asian part of the USSR. There wouldn`t have been any battle of Stalingrad.

Reason No 2
In 1945 the USA developed atomic bomb. If Germans had refused to surrender unconditionally, they would have evaporated in nuclear explosions all over Germany.

Conclusion: the battle at Stalingrad didn`t play such a vital role in saving Poland.

And the chief editor of proRussian, antiUkrainian nationalistic magazine Myśl polska.

Kania, are you a member of myślpolska team that you propagate their views so enthusiasticaly here??? :):):)

It is the last time that I have fallen for that trap of yours. :):):) No more! hahaha

A weak link in the chain of support for Ukraine (along with amiga500)....

Sropagate. I'm just posting some interesting links to points of view from the other side, without agreeing with them. Balance of nature :)


Oh, yeah? How have you been supporting Ukraine, apart from internet posts, Maf? Internet fora are for discussing various points of view, real life is for action. You wouldn't call me a "weak link" if you knew the extent of my help for Ukrainian community in Poland.

Yes, but the choice of words in your posts makes an impression you do agree.

E.g., because that would be stigmatised as "speaking with the voice of Kremlin".

Stigmatise has negative connotations. If you juxtapose the word "stigmatise" and the phrase "the voice of the Kremlin," you suggest that calling sb`s views the voice of Kremlin is improper or outwardly bad.

Besides, when you introduced Engelgard, you hid his political agenda. There is a brutal war close to Poland and you write about an obsessed nationalistic pundit that he is simply Polish historian etc. Not Polish historian, politician and writer but Polish nationalist politician and historian. That makes a big difference.


I hope you understand now why we suspect you of clandestine work on behalf of proRussian nationalists???

You wanted to stir us up and you were successful. hahahahaha But no more.

Here is what I know in one paragraph:

Red Army liberated Poland.
AK got me almost killed.
Germans saved my ass.

and Germany, at least East Germany.


Germans got you almost killed


How was it possible, can you tell us something about that?

When that idiotic Warsaw Uprising was over, Germans took my babysitter and me to the safety of a camp in Hamburg instead of just killing us both on the spot. Thanks, guys.

....I don't think you can call it liberating!

And it wasn't meant to be by the Red Army....

Ulbricht and Honecker always said that.

Liberating - the act of removing or killing people who want to kill you.
Red Army did just that. And so did the US army. Are we OK now?

If Ukraine would take the war back to Russia and mount their flag in Moscow, would that be a liberation?

(Yes I know just play along:)

@Novichok
"The act of removing or killing people who want to kill you" is not liberation but, defending yourself. Red army defended Poles from being massacred, inprisoned or opressed from the Germans.

However it was very temperory due to the fact that the communist authorities did similar things, just not in plain sight and more indirectly with a more subtle approach. All their talk of liberating was the communist talk about "liberating" workers from the authority of capitalists, priests, aristocracy and everyone they deemed burgouise. (Which they happily branded anyone opposing them, wether it was correct or not)

So yeah, again please read a dictionary!

Liberating can be by a third party (Red Army) or by yourself. For example, Red Army liberated Stalingrad. "Liberating" applies to both situations.

@Novichok
In that context, Stalingrad was liberated by their own people. Not by another hostile force pretending to be helpful formally.

It seems to me you only apply "formal realities" to Poland cause it suits you or trying to be obnoxious to other users cause you know they will get pissed off at you. Why do you try to provoke constantly? Do you want people to hate you or something?

Hate is a self-destructive force, you should abandon your ways.

Stalingrad was liberated by the Red Army. "By their own people" is true and a deliberate attempt not to give credit where it is due - to the Red Army.

I don't care how anybody feels. What I detect in all the discussions that involve the USSR and now Russia is this mindless Polish hostility to both that is not present when Germany is the subject. To the Russia haters, Z and Ukraine are 100% good and noble while Putin and Russia 100% bad and evil. So very adult.

Any attempt to see things through Russia's eyes is dismissed offhand and replaced with a dead baby, a raped woman, or "democracy".

Huh?

@Novichok
...

Stalingrad was part of the Soviet Union, it's army was the red army. So yes, they were liberated by their own a.K.a as the red army and other military branches that were part of the military operation you nitpicking quarrelsome bothering internet person

Huh what? Even I like Germans and Germany.


No. The Soviet Union had the Red Army. The only red army is an army of red ants.
By now, I am not sure what the argument is about. Semantics, spelling, capitalization, or proper use of hyphens...

@Novichok
Well I can tell you one thing, I come from an family of pedantic people but, you take the cake! If you think I am ignorant about ww2, history or Russia in general and that I hate Russia/Russians

Then you can only blame yourself about such delusions! Have a good day! You clearly need it!

It's not me being pedantic. It's my bullsh*it detector being in perfect order. I also assume that every deviation from normal is deliberate. Like this one...


In my entire life, I never read a sentence like the one above - until now, in the sea of Russia hating idiots. And then there is this moronic lowercasing in a sentence that clearly shows the author's ability to use capital letters. Tell me that "red army" was not deliberate.


No. The Red Army was on the way to Berlin and chose Poland as the shortest way to get there, Liberating Poland from Germans was an unavoidable byproduct. So, no, the Red Army didn't enter Poland to "defend" Poland as your statement insinuates. In 1945, Germans were running for their lives.

It was AK that pis*sed them off and slowed them down enough to kill 200,000 Poles and level Warsaw. In that context, the Red Army were the good guys; AK - not so much. I know that this is blasphemy to the average Pole. Tough sh*it...

@Novichok
I have no reason to respect nor like an army that not only looked with indifference to the massacres happening in Warsaw, in which you personally claim to have experienced.

Nor a army supporting the policies of a state by plundering and burning my family's estate despite locals salvaging what possibly they could and returning it back to the family. Nor it's wickedness in plunder and rape performed towards my brothers and sisters of faith and social class because of their own problems with Boyars in Russia.

(I also change keyboard language on my Iphone and type rather fast so capital letters change very often depending on language settings mind you)

You deliberately also ignore the red armies pleads on radio's and leaflets that were dropped in Warsaw before the uprising to rise up against the Germans. So no, don't tell me they were simply "having" to go through Poland to reach Germany.

You probably also ignorant of the fact there were far more NKVD divisions operating in post-ww2 Poland then eastern Germany.

Traitor

Those two actions were not mutually exclusive. The Red Army would, of course, benefit from an uprising that is coordinated with them.

They were smart enough to know that the WU was coordinated against them and militarily stupid. There is a simple rule in life: never yell at a perp who is ready to run away. AK violated this rule and made the Soviets unhappy. So they said, fu*ck you, a-holes. Have it your way. Your way turned out to be 200,000 dead Poles.

That's my point of view. What is yours? That AK wanted to assist the Soviets in killing Germans or, maybe, to be first as a political move.


I am happy to admit that we didn't see any NKVD or Red Army guys in my entire life in Poland till I left in 1966.

How many NKVD "divisions" were there in Poland at the peak? Where did they stay? Were they free to mingle?
A division is 10,000 men, as far as I know.

@Novichok
Most of the NKVD were withdrawn out of PRL past 1953 for obvious reasons... Especially after 1956, what's next you gonna state? That you don't how the Polish flag looks like?

You taking me for an idiot?

Besides you are ignoring the fact of why the uprising broke out, it was due to a ultimatum from the Germans. All grown adult men had to show up to start building barricades and fortifications for the Germans front lines within Warsaw.

It was either get excecuted, arrested on their own or transported to concentration camps, run away en mass or resist.

Men of Warsaw chose to resist, despite the Home Army leaderships will to delay.

Which seems to blurr your understanding of it due to the Polish resistance leadership known intentions of the Soviets, any idiot knew what the Soviet Union was about after experiencing it first hand. Many of the Polish officers in the Polish resistance had access to intelligence reports from war of 1920 and what was happening in eastern Poland under Soviet occupation. Every Polish leader knew what was coming, and most Poles could fairly and easily guess it.

It was a mouse trapped in a corner, that tried to jump at a cat and got hit by it's paws.

Yet you seem to imply the mouse should just get eaten or something. It was a "sytuacja bez wyjścia"

No. I am saying that in the summer of 1944 only Hitler didn't know that the war was over. When that moment comes, the mouse should tend to its little mice in a deep hole and just wait till the big elephant kills the smaller and sicker one. If it can give the big elephant directions and other intelligence, great. Just don't play a hero or you may be squashed like a rodent.

Metaphoric enough?

@Novichok
You can convince a Czech of such things, unless you want Poles to stop being Polish. Just because you choose it. Doesn't mean others have to if anything you told so far is remotely true