you're probably right.. Voltaire famously (and sardonically) remarked: "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.".. It must therefore have been Germanic, unless we are talking about a complete misnomer..
The empire was not well centralized, 300 duchies or small kingdoms, but a very long time it was Europe's power
We are on a site talking about POLES, I know only some of my friends that hate Poles, the rest are not interested in them at all....Poles hate Germans, everybody knows that.....! Germans hated them in the past. Germans have always hated Frenchies, in present too!
The Oradour sur Glane massacre when German SS murdered 600 French inhabitants and other crimes against French in WW2 relieve who much the Germans hate the French ;)
Germany has seen itself throughout history as the unwitting victim of inferior races and peoples, forever vying for their rightful place against the "superior" Germans. This attitude has morphed into "LOOK, WE'RE GERMANY!! ECONOMIC SUPER POWER NO.1 IN EUROPE. TREMBLE BEFORE US!!!"
They needn't say such expressly; it's often plain oozin' outta their pores:-)
They needn't say such expressly; it's often plain oozin' outta their pores
Speaking of oozing: "You're either for us, or against us" ... rings a bell? Freedom Fries, anyone? :)
The US is currently the dominating world power, and as such a target for hate, jealousy, criticism and mistrust. Germany is currently the dominating power in Europe and as such treated with the same set of hostilities. That's a normal reaction. Your implication that this has in any way to do with the Nazi ideology (or its origins) is simply ridiculous. Were the Americans Nazis as well in their past, or why were they showing the attitude I mentioned above?
Yeah, we know! And "our" Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes once advocated mercy killing of the feeble-minded, right! That doesn't make it right either though, does it now?:-)
There is no collective guilt. Otherwise we would all be walking around hanging our heads in shame. And there is no inherent anti-semitism or superiority complex in anyone, either.
You and Jolly are the two big "German"/"Germany" experts around here 'right? Well check out H. Plessner's treatise on 'secular piety', one of Germany's philosophical responses to the Plague, the Thirty-Years War and a bunch of other stuff brewing pre-Enlightenment throughout the German Empire! Secular Piety is defined as a uniquely German view of the world which seeks to "despiritualize" the physical world and remove G_d from the entire equation. Kant too contributed to the so-called Nazi Weltanschauung, whereby e.g. pity as a response to pain was deemed essentially illogical and thus unimportant. Obedience to the Will was the highest commandmant, hence, disobeying the Will might be considered even worse than murder! The German title's too long and this ain't a German Forum per se, only once you read, you'll instantly see this guy Plessner's take on the essential cave-in of grass-roots Christianity to the ruling aristocrats at the time. He and others have explained the failure of Christian ideology and its basic 'Judaism' as one of the many reason Hitler was able to appeal so viscerally to the German masses! Basically, Germany was still pagan, had never Christianized (except nominally), hence had no concept of human equality, brotherly love, i.e. the glue that holds Western Civilization together.
If you're thinking, "Hey, £yżko! Whaddabout the Crusades?", the Crusaders themselves were only converts to Christianity, not familiar with the teachings of Jesus.
You and Jolly are the two big "German"/"Germany" experts around here 'right?
I'm not playing that game, Lyzko. My point is simply that I consider any attempt to paint the people of a whole nation as inherently fascist or anti-Semitic as pure BS. Be it Germany, Poland or any other country.
Don't know to which "game" you're referring, TheOther! I'm speaking about historical fact, not opinion. The fact is that Germany was particularly susceptible to Hitler because their foundation in popular democracy was weak to almost non-existent. Come one, man! Take a look at the failed Vormaez so-called Revolution of 1848!! It was like claiming to be a serious army and attacking the enemy with one pop-gun and a water pistol:-)LOL The Weimar Constitution??! There was a bleedin' failure if I ever heard one. Dressing a military nation-state in democratic garb for a decade and calling it a true democracy??
I'm only painting German history with the brush strokes it deserves, using the colors and canvas which it has bestowed upon me, nothing more, nothing less!
The fact is that Germany was particularly susceptible to Hitler because their foundation in popular democracy was weak to almost non-existent.
I disagree. The rise and popularity of Hitler had nothing to do with a lack of democracy or a hidden "fascist gene" of the Germans. It had all to do with Versailles and the Great Depression. That he was able to grab power was simply a loophole in the system. Starting with him becoming a citizen of the Reich (and thus being able to run for public office) only with the help of some fascist friends, and later being appointed chancellor by Hindenburg only due to the weakness of the democratic and the communist parties in the Reichstag.
I'm only painting German history with the brush strokes it deserves
You are painting modern day Germany with 82 year old brush strokes, and that's where I have a problem. Not because it's Germany, but because I believe that generalizing in such a manner is one of the root causes for xenophobia in the world. The original question whom Polish people dislike more is an example for that.
Well, as I recall, the Fuehrer himself wasn't exactly crazy about the Poles either. He grouped all Slavs together as some lower form of human (just add an "e" in between "Slav" and whaddya get???) and merely placed Jewish Poles at the bottom of the whole heap. Back on topic? As I posted earlier, the Poles on average disliked the Germans, but the nation they really FEARED, were the Russians.
By the way, you may disagree to your little heart's desire. The weak underpinnings of democracy and enlightenment in Germany are considered by any authentic historian as root causes in the rise of Nazism, period!
@Oh, incidentally Mirten ol' pal! I'm not Polish. I'm of German descent and was born in the US:-)
What other kind is there, apart from the tainted kind?
Seriously, After the War, Germany wasn't able to see herself objectively. How could she? Therefore, ONLY outsiders, i.e. Allied outsiders, saw themselves as either morally or intellectually "fit" enough to sit in judgement of their irreparably compromised European cousins, now seen by many as damaged goods, a once proud well(-spring) of culture, forever poisoned.
Many after the War shared this view. It took the late seventies for folks like Mitscherlich to write so-called traitorous exposes of their people. They were called "foulers of the nest" by most, unpatriotic rats who'd best shut up for their own health and good.
TheOther, history isn't pretty, so don't try to whitewash the facts, while we're still on the subject of paintLOL
Seriously, After the War, Germany wasn't able to see herself objectively. How could she? Therefore, ONLY outsiders, i.e. Allied outsiders, saw themselves as either morally or intellectually "fit" enough to sit in judgement of their irreparably compromised European cousins
What about historians that came a decade or two after the war? You need a little distance to be unbiased. Besides, you know the saying "The victors write the history books", right?
some lower form of human
Interestingly, the term "underman" or " subhuman" goes back to the American Lothrop Stoddard...
Distance? Indeed you do. Post-War American, British and German historians, e.g. Gooch, Kegan, Trevor-Roper, Bracher, Taylor and a host of others ALL jumped on the bandwagon of trying NOT to whitewash Germany as some flawed nation of bloodthirsty, Jew-hating, heathens:-) Problem was, as illustrated beautifully in that movie "Judgement at Nuremberg" (1961), the US needed Germany as Europe's economic, geopolitically strategic lynchpin. Americans therefore had to be super cautious NOT to tread on German toes.
The English were rather less "politically correct", however.
...bandwagon of trying NOT to whitewash Germany as some flawed nation of bloodthirsty, Jew-hating, heathens
So you prefer the brand of historian that - based on just 12 years of history - describe(d) Germany as an inherently flawed, bloodthirsty and Jew hating nation? Well, fair enough. You probably also believe that the USA liberated Europe... ;)
??? Seemed to have missed something. I never once intimated that I "prefer" any such thing, I'm merely describing the state of German historiography post 1945:-) Perhaps it is YOU who is reading an unintended meaning into my statement(s):-)
I never once intimated that I "prefer" any such thing
C'mon, you have more than once made clear what you think of Germany and its people, my friend. No need to deny that. But that's not even important, because my point (still) is that there is NO such thing as an inherent anti-Semitism, superiority complex, bloodthirst (or any other presumed evil national trait of your choice), as you imply, and again - there is also NO collective guilt. Young Germans would give you the middle finger for what you've said, and rightly so.
PS: You might want to watch the documentary that Polonius posted in Off Topic (polishforums.com/off-topic-47/jews-anti-semitism-documenatry-75120/)
I beg your pardon, sir! What I've reiterated on this forum is that NO nation is "inherently" one thing or another, but a people is the collective summation of its parts and sadly, the German nation seems to have been inculcated with an insularity born out of perceived borderlessness, hence vulnerabilty.
To such a people, I gladly add the Japanese, with whom the Germans are often compared:-)
the German nation seems to have been inculcated with an insularity
Insular in what way?
What I've reiterated on this forum is that NO nation is "inherently" one thing or another
Explain this then:
"Germany has seen itself throughout history as the unwitting victim of inferior races and peoples, forever vying for their rightful place against the "superior" Germans. This attitude has morphed into "LOOK, WE'RE GERMANY!! ECONOMIC SUPER POWER NO.1 IN EUROPE. TREMBLE BEFORE US!!!" They needn't say such expressly; it's often plain oozin' outta their pores
Depends on what one means by "liberated". If what is meant is "indoctinated" with democratic values, i.e. baseball etc. aka "de-NAZIfied", clearly to victor went the spoils (..of war). I'm sure the former Soviets tell and told a very different picture of "liberation" than the Brits and the Yanks:-)
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