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Origins of Polish Slavs



jon357 70 | 12,786    
29 Dec 2014  #31

Yes - this is true for many places (certainly the UK too) and the names are often very ancient indeed; far older than recorded history.

Interestingly, the archaeological digs around Grodzisk Mazowiecki a few years ago showed that the prehistoric inhabitants of the site they excavated were Burgundians.


Crow 138 | 5,838    
29 Dec 2014  #32

yes this is precisely the point - the names of the majority of Polish rivers don't mean a thing in Polish (or any Slavic language) - they have been taken from former inhabitants and modified to suit Slavic phonology

with all due respect Pane Moderatore but, you are wrong.

Take for example name of the Danube river. Its older original name was Ister. What we have here is that both, older and newer name of the same river sound Slavic and have its meaning in Slavic languages. In Serbian: `Dunav` > /verb. `Duvati`/ > Eng. `to blow` > refers to the wind > windy river, which is truth considering constant wind that follow Danube; `Ister` > /verb. `Isterati`/ > Eng. to chase, expel > refers to fast and strong water

Of course, one would say, but Danube isn`t Polish river. But it is. Just, those territories where flow (in the region) Danube, were by Germanics taken from Poles. Take from Poles cruelly and savagely
gumishu 11 | 4,557    
30 Dec 2014  #33

you have no idea about linguistics it seems - no problem for me
Ziemowit 8 | 2,593    
30 Dec 2014  #34

the names of the majority of Polish rivers don't mean a thing in Polish

Such an argument is irrelevant. According to many specialists, those names are of Indoeuropean origin. If they are so old, we may say they may have been formed in a language which is now called the Proto-indoeuropean language. This language had splitted over time into many language groups, one of which was Proto-slavic (and earlier Balto-Slavic). If the Proto-slavic group (and language) has evolved in situ, that is on the territory of the present Poland or Ukraine or Belarus, their people may have retained the older Proto-indoeuropean names of rivers of that territory, while their own language has changed so much that none of those name resemble any word in any of the Slavic languages at present. Thus, "former inhabitants" may well had been the ancestors of the Slavic people themselves.

but if Slavs had been in Central Europe all along then why are they not mentioned in any written sources until 550 AD?

This is only partly true. That source identifies them as Slavs beyond doubt, though as far as I can remember it does not even use a name similar to "Slav/Slavic" (if you can quote this source precisely, I shall be grateful). Yet, ancient chroniclers name people living in Central and Eastern Europe befor 550 AD, but the problem is we cannot say for sure they were Slavs, neither we can say for sure they were not Slavs.
Crow 138 | 5,838    
30 Dec 2014  #35

you have no idea about linguistics it seems - no problem for me

why don`t you then show me where i mistaking?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,296    
30 Dec 2014  #36

That source identifies them as Slavs beyond doubt, though as far as I can remember it does not even use a name similar to "Slav/Slavic" (if you can quote this source precisely, I shall be grateful).

Here is Jordanes' text in English translation:

Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names now vary amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaweni and Antes.
The abode of the Sclaweni extends from the city of Noviodunum {New Town, modern Isaktscha, Romania} and the lake called Mursianus to the Dniestr, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities.
The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling around the bend of the Black Sea, spread from the Dniestr to the Dniepr, rivers that are many days journey apart.

harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm

Yet, ancient chroniclers name people living in Central and Eastern Europe befor 550 AD

Very true, Herodotus writing in the Fifth Century BC mentions several peoples in the area (including a race of seasonal werewolves) and Tacitus wrote of the Venedi at the end of the First Century, but the text above from 550 AD is the oldest one to use the name Sclaweni.

Such an argument is irrelevant. According to many specialists, those names are of Indoeuropean origin.

The names of Polish rivers meaning nothing in Slavic languages is not irrelevant, even if they are of Indo-European origin. Names from different branches of the Indo-European language family would be consistent with the widely accepted theory that posits Indo-Europeans migrating in waves, with the Slavs being the last wave.

If they are so old, we may say they may have been formed in a language which is now called the Proto-indoeuropean language.

One may say this, but although Poland has been proposed as the Proto-Indo-European Urheimat, the most popular candidate for this place is the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Others argue forcefully for Anatolia.
Roger5 2 | 1,476    
31 Dec 2014  #37

Poles were in Europe even 10600 years BC

Hahaha, thanks for that. Anyone remember grubas?
Wiki Polonica    
31 Dec 2014  #38

gwozdz.org/r1a.html

Peter Underhill published data on 4.11.2009 , significantly changed the data of previous authors , he has pointed out the area of modern Poland as an aboriginal Polish Slavic territory .

In 2009, the haplogrup R1a1 isolating mutations found more interesting for us- haplogroup R1a1a7 whose age was determined at 10.7 thousand. Looking at the distribution of the population geneticists have found that most of the members of this group lives in the central, and later in southern Poland. Hence it is assumed that it was 10.7 thousand in Poland. Years, a mutation, the holders of at least since the time of today's Polish inhabited areas, hence this mutation spread outwards .
Wiki Polonica    
1 Jan 2015  #39

Because my former post was removed I want to give informations about the subject again.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corecgi/tileshop/tileshop.fcgi?p=PMC3&id=543311&s=23&r=1&c=2

Peter Underhill discovered so called Polish haplogroup R1a1a7-with marker called M458 .The highest frequency of haplogroup R1a1a7 (over 30%) is observed in Central and Southern Poland.The highest regional date among Polish R1a1a7 carriers falls into the period of recolonization of this region by Mesolithic (Swiderian and subsequent cultures) settlers. The time period expands between the Mesolithic and early Neolithic era in Europe

. Data shows high frequency of R1a1a haplogroup north of the Carpathians and its lower frequency to the South.
Haplogrup R1a1 (Y-DNA) dominates in Poland and dates as early as 15000 BC and is evident in Polish YDNA man population in 57 % which means we are here in Poland living on the lands of our progenitors since prehistoric times .and no internet troll will chage it .

Now genetic science gives us new tools unthinkable before , when only historians could inform us about our history .
Slavic culture was unknown to Mediterranean historians like Prokop . He was not interested in cultures who were so distant and sparse on huge lands of Norhern Europe so it is not mention frequently by him .

But we surely can only laugh at posts of ignorants who claim that a word Słowianie comes from a word of slave , insinuating that an English word could be a source of the aboriginal name of the major European culture or claiming that a river Wisła is not Polish name because some latin historian used it in his books . He probably latinised aboriginal name which was so strange for him that he didn`t know even how to pronounce it

A word "Słowianie" comes from a word "słowa" in english " words" means people who could speak , contrary to Niemce ( Polish word for Germans )- people who couldn`t speak (assuming the same language ).

Origins of R1A1YDNA - creation of 15 000 years BC, possible places of origins - Eurasian Steppes (south-eastern Europe, South Caucasus, Central Asia)
Output mutation Haplogroup R1
occurrence
Mutations in SRY-1532
Ethos - Poles 55%,
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogrupa_R1a1_%28Y-DNA%29 - translate it in google
.
jon357 70 | 12,786    
16 Mar 2015  #40

insinuating that an English word could be a source of the aboriginal name of the major European culture

It isn't "the major European culture" and I see nobody "insinuating" anything. Nobody suggests the word comes from English ("the major European" language) by the way. The English word comes from medieval Latin (formerly "the major European" language) who took their word for slave (slavus) from the Balkans - probably from a proto-Slavonic root though some etymologists suggest the Greek sklabos.

DNA haplogroups, by the way, have no relevance whatsoever on culture, language, human personalities, national characteristics or rights over a place. The origins of Slavic people are far more complex than just the R1a1a7 - so we can say that no, Poles (or any culture we can relate to any modern European group) did not exist

10600

ago.
Borek Falecki - | 52    
16 Mar 2015  #41

Because my former post was removed I want to give informations about the subject again.

Wincenty Witos, the leader of the Polish peasants and a prime minister during the interwar period, cautioned, "Poland fell as a state of nobility and rises as a peasant state, as such it can and must survive. Wotos' reminiscences of the reaction of the Polish peasantry to the rebirth of the Polish state are illustrative of the differing collective memories of the peasants of pre-partition Poland. He recalls that "the majority of peasants were very concerned, fearing once the Polish state was restored, back would come serfdom and total enslavement to the nobles.

When the peasant became the Pole?
historia.newsweek.pl/kiedy-chlop-stal-sie-polakiem-tomasz-kizwalter-newsweek-pl,artykuly,281641,1.html
Wiki Polonica    
16 Mar 2015  #42

Polska was , is and will be forever a beloved land for Polish people and for those guests who can appreciate our hospitality . Our land was inhabited here by us even as long as 10000 years ago ( and yes DNA tests can prove it !!!!!! - go back to school if you claim contrary ) and some handful moonstruck censors will not change it . Go to your national forum as there is nothing to look for here .

You will not find much reliable informations in leftist press like Newsweek , my dear . Polish will be Polish no matter who they are , elite or simpletons - as in any civilised country .
jon357 70 | 12,786    
16 Mar 2015  #43

Our land was inhabited here by us even as long as 10000 years ago ( and yes DNA tests can prove it !!!!!!

There was no 'us' 10,000 years ago. No European culture has survived that long. DNA is an irelevance and migration is part of human history.

and for those guests who can appreciate our hospitality

No one group of inhabitants has any more or less a claim than another after a generation or so passes.

in leftist press like Newsweek

True colours showing and a familiar writing style...
Borek Falecki - | 52    
16 Mar 2015  #44

Polska was , is and will be forever [...]. Our land was inhabited here by us even as long as 10000 years ago and yes DNA tests can prove it !!!!!!

Your Bible of DNA tests is available only to those who have the skill to read the hieroglyphs of mathematics. I prefer the language of normal people.
Crnogorac3 1 | 244    
9 Feb 2017  #45

1

Bielowski: "The Poles originate from the Danube from Serbian tribes Triballi and Dacians."

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Bielowski

Other Polish scientists state: "the Poles originate from Serbian Illyria, the cradle of Slavic nations" (Critical introduction into history, 1857).

2
Ziemowit 8 | 2,593    
9 Feb 2017  #46

That's very interesting. The historical border between the Serbs and the Greeks as shown on your map could in a way justify the sensational hypothesis as outlined in my thread:

Sensational : the biblical Philistines - were they Slavic people?

Living so close to the Aegean Sea as shown on your map, those "Serbs" could have been the mysterious Sea People invading parts of Middle East in the Bronze Age. However, it is not clear what age your map showing this border refers to. I suspect it refers to a much later period, however.
Crow 138 | 5,838    
9 Feb 2017  #47

Historical fact is that even Greeks themselves originate from Thracians, meaning from Sarmatians. That then absolutely confirms Spartan Sarmatian origin, as isolated Sarmatian island that remained in that time already deeply Hellenized Sarmatian south. It is then also clear why Thracian tribes decided to came in aid to Spartans at the famous Battle of Thermopylae, while Greeks from Athens gave every possible excuse to avoid to send help. Furthermore, if we look at case of Troja we again see that Thracian tribes came in aid to Trojans against Greeks. Here, we must say that Greeks themselves (read Thracians/Sarmatians that were finally and totally assimilated and Hellenized) didn`t consider neither Trojans, neither Spartans, neither Macedonians to be Greeks.
Crow 138 | 5,838    
9 Feb 2017  #48

those "Serbs"

not to fall in trap of misunderstanding, when speak about Serbians in those ancient time always have in mind that ethnic name of Serbs represent remain of local variation of universal name of all Slavs- Sarmatian name, that could be preserved original or some form similar to original name of all Slavs. So, when we speak about Serbs back in 2000 years ago and earlier, we actually speak about Slavs (Sarmatians) in general.

When we are at it, for those who are interested, original name of Sarmatians is foreign given form (so that foreigners were able to pronounce) of some word/name that is related to name of Serbs/Sorbs. So, how I investigated on the net, original name of Sarmatians (people also known as Aryans/Hyperboreans) was/sounded between names/words SRBI and SRBIND. I tend to pick SRBIND as the primordial Sarmatian name. That name is in its original mentioned in old Indian Rg Vedic manuscripts. Also, it is interesting how that suffix *ND sound Celtic and we know that bulk of Celtic population also lived in what is now Serbia, same as bulk of Thracian population. So, it was SRBIND, I do believe. It must be original or closest to original sounding or Sarmatian name. Later came the softening of that original with evolution of language and with foreign influences.
pootv    
21 Sep 2017  #49

the polish comes from *** tv GO WATCH OK




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