Polish military in 1939 in pictures.

Its an original design it has nothing in common with BAR, Gewehr-43 is based in Gewehr-40 which might or might not have been copied from the Polish design but neither of them have anything to do with BAR or M1 internally or externally.

You may confuse it with wz1937 which was an aircraft gun but its nice to see good old American "everything came from us" redneck spirit again :)

It may have been, but I think it unlikely this skirmish made it into any history books.

It was told to me by a friend quite a few years ago. The Polish uhlan who was involved in the skirmish was his neighbour during his childhood in Australia. It was this man's stories on his experiences in WW2 that fostered my friend's interests in all things Polish.

From what I was told, the skirmish occurred after a chance meeting between a Polish and German patrol, with both units being fairly small in size (probably a dozen to 20 each side). It could have been during the battle of Bzura, which would have been a likely place and time, but I wasn't told where or if I was I have forgotten it. All I know is that it happened in the first few days of the war. I've lost track of my freind but if I can track him down I'll try and get further details and post them. What was interesting to me was the fact that the uhlans did not use their lances in the charge but went in with sabres. Presumably, that was to do with etiquette and honour (the Gerries didn't have lances), or a sense of superiority.


This seems to accord with what I was told regarding both sides in the skirmish that I related being given time to form up and then charge - in this case, it was obviously not communicated verbally, but both sides on seeing each other stopped, surveyed the other, then formed up. It's akin to the anecdotes of both German and Polish pilots over Poland who extended courtesies and chivalric conduct to their opponent when they were shot down (see for example A. Zamoyski's 'The Forgotten Few'). This of course died shortly after the greater air combat commenced.

Anyone of Polish lineage on the forum who had (or have) family who were uhlans would no doubt relate to the notions of 'chivalry' that were retained by some Polish uhlans in combat. On the other hand, some of those forum members who have absolutely no link with anything regarding Poland except to live there but criticise it will of course have no idea of what I'm talking about.

Oh you little beauty! That is absolutely f*cking superb even by your standards! You abuse me for forming my "opinions on the basis of Nazi propaganda" and in the very same post link to adolfhitlerresearchsociety.org. For those who, clearly unlike you, who have never wasted time looking at that site, allow me to quote a few gems from the 'about' page: "One of AHRS's aims is to eradicate the lies told about Hitler and NS." "Hitler was not a violent man. He was, on the contrary, a peacemaker of the highest order." " Many lies have been told about Hitler and the Nazis, so our main goal is to eradicate those lies." "We do not deny the Holocaust. We simply question aspects of that event, which allows our readers to draw their own conclusions about it."

But when I follow the link on the above page to under the intro "If you would like to know more about AHRS as an organization, please visit the main About page on the AHRS website: hitlersociety.org/index_files/about.html I start to get rather worried about you. Here are some quotes from that page

"The purpose for the founding of AHRS: to reveal the objective truth regarding Adolf Hitler because
†He is the most important white person of the twentieth century.
†The public interest in Adolf Hitler is truly boundless.
†The enigma of Adolf Hitler continues to either revolt or enchant nearly all of humanity.

The positive aspects of Hitler's National Socialist regime, including his insightful socio-political and Christian conceptions, can no longer be ignored by genuine historians and scholars of history."

"We believe National Socialism to have been a movement that was rich in love and Christian brotherliness. We feel that Hitler has been academically 'demonized' for nearly 70 years, and it is our goal to eradicate this slander about him and his supporters.

We only present the positive aspects of Hitler and National Socialism, and offer insightful commentary to enhance and expound upon the research we conduct, hence Jewry is often portrayed negatively, solely due to the fact that it was the antithesis to Hitler's National Socialism. Gems are here.

hitlersociety.org/index_files/about.htmlThose

I am utterly disgusted that anybody who in anyway claims to be Polish should spend time reading such appalling websites. The contempt that you have for your fellow posters here that you can with a straight face link to such sites and call the articles thereon "historical fact" is amazing. I would call upon all posters here to bear in mind the fact that you spend your time reading openly pro-Nazi and pro-Hitler websites and link to them here as suggested reading. You are a disgrace to your nation and your race.

To be fair, the article he linked to was an Agence France Press article which happened to be posted on a loony Nazi site. A gooble search on the topic would also lead you to the same source. No issue here. The article is good.

But the website can make one emotional:



Some people will still demonize Hitler despite his Ghandi-like characteristics. His teeth hurt too.

Now I see why you pretend to ignor my posts: it's because I point out the bullsh!t in your posts. Lt. Col. Bohdan Stachlewski ordered two charges (one from each of his squadrons) against German troops. The first squadron broke through the German positions and German infantry started a chaotic retreat towards the centre of the town, followed by the Polish cavalry using sabres and lances. At this point the second squadron, led by Lt. Tadeusz Gerlecki, charged towards the village. A unit of cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division counter-charged down the hill and were defeated.

However, I must say that it is a surprise to see you telling lies about the success of Polish troops: the battle of Krasnobród was a Polish victory. The village was retaken, 100 Germans were taken prisoner and 40 Poles who had been PoWs were freed.

Although you of course don't provide any sources, I will: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krasnobr%C3%B3d


Interesting that you believe a word that Guderian had to say about Polish cavalry. Personally I read the bit where he said "The Polish Pomorska Cavalry Brigade, in ignorance of the nature of our tanks, had charged them with swords and lances and had suffered tremendous losses." and then dismissed him as at best unreliable.


I do find it amusing that you claim I have no idea about a battle which took place in a country which you have never spend even a second in and in a small town which I visited in August this year. And before you start off your standard BS about me relying on internet sources while you use far superior books: I went to the museum in Krasnobród, looked at the artifacts there and read the displays (although I did have to ask for help with the translation thereof a couple of times). Polish cavalry were indeed chivalrous but they did not give the German unit time to form up (it is debatable whether they were aware of the unit) and they were certainly not given time by the Germans to form up: they were already charging when the German unit counter-charged. But don't let facts get in the way of your posts.

Agread,to a point,but,I think you'l find without British and french chari...sorry,help,Poland would have had no Tank force at all.....


You got that right,Blitzkreig was a myth as far as its use in 1939 against Poland is concerned....The germans hadnt worked it out yet and got everything "wrong". After the practice run of Poland the germans learnt many leasons and their following campaigns were closer to true blitzkreig.


Thats just bollox mate and you know it. If it held the "entire border" how come german units were deep inside poland within hours?


Again bollox,official Polish response to the soviet invasion was do not fire unless fired upon.


Ive already said in my first post that the western allies were weak in 1940,but,big surprise chauvanist Pole gets all uppity and boo hoo " we are the best at everything but the world just doesnt see it..." God,whats it like having a national charector these days(unlike the heros of the 30s and 40s) of a petulant teenager?

Blitzkrieg is not a myth. In the 16th century this method of fighting was what made Polish Hussars the unbeatable ride in Europe.

"Inny rodzaj jazdy!"

Without a British or French chassis we still had the modified Christie chassis with which we produced the fastest tank in the world and maybe instead of making a good TP7 we'd made a much better TP10 and TP14.

Also Poland didnt use French chassis, Polish military was interested only in Somuas but since French couldnt sell us any we bought 100 R-35s in what in 39 was an act of desperation.


Can you tell me what units were deep inside Poland within hours?


Which doesnt change the fact that Soviets invaded fortified regions with ammunition dumps where Polish reserve divisions have been organising thus destroying the entire Polish rear logistics at a stroke.

By September 14 Poland still had 720.000 men, by September 21 only some 320.000 thats how decisive the Soviet invasion was.


So you're arguing that the Allies who had 3300~ tanks and 3.5 milion men were weak? Could you elaborate?


Oh we're definitely better in WW2 and the world sees it, the reaction from Western supremacists is well... like yours.

Germany lost approximately 230 tanks in Poland and 740~ in France.

Poland destroyed 32% of the French destroyed tanks while having only 9% tanks the West had, only 11% AT guns etc, and its important to remember in what unfavorable conditions Poland fought as compared to the West, encircled from all sides, with rear echelons destroyed by Russian invasion.

Lets compare aircraft losses, Poles destroyed around 300 German airplanes having about 400 airplanes themselves. West destroyed around 1200 airplanes having 3000 airplanes themselves.

So Poland having around 12% of Western allied airpower destroyed about 25% of what the allies did.

And Isthatu i'm using conservative figures here, not counting all German losses ie armored cars (counted as tanks well into 1940 by both Poles and Allies) and not counting destroyed German scout planes etc, then the losses incurred by Poland would reach up to 50% of those in France in airplanes.

We can go on and keep comparing, there's no chauvinism, Poland had a capable war machine and if the West didnt put Poland in an untenable position and kept to its promises the war would be over by the time Germany was supposed to invade France, except it would be over in Berlin.

Its nothing about heroism and everything about people like you selling Poland as weak when dry figures show it did better with sharp sticks then the West did with nukes.

Because you don't know the border which Sokrates refers to. He is not talking about the internation border as it was on 31 August 1939 between Poland and Germany, he is talking about one which Poland held German troops all along (i.e. the one which exists only in his head).


Not actually orders which were widely heeded. Although with that said, the Red Army didn't get involved for the first two and a half weeks and even when it did, the vast majority of the Polish army (and almost all of its best weapons and troops) were nowhere near the Red Army, so you comment that Sokrates' claim is "bollox" is right on the money.

2-5 September, the farthest they are in 120km into Poland by 3rd, hardly first hours deep penetration, now get the fvck out you anti-Polish cvnt.

Wow! Limiting the Germans to advances of only 40km a day, that's really holding them at the border!

I note that you have no comment at all to make to the post in which I point out that your statements about the battle of Krasnobród are: a) plain wrong; and b) anti-Polish. Perhaps you'd like to "get the fvck out you anti-Polish cvnt"?

Look at the map Harriet, by 3rd September most German forces advanced between 40 and 60km into Poland and only one army advanced that deep in what was a breaktrough.


Yes i do, you lie.

Polish cavalry did not charge but was charged, you basically got the entire order of battle wrong.

Also Żubrówka, Stalowa Wola and others are places where Poles and Germans showed each other courtesy, its in various memoirs including Guderians so by your statement that no one showed anyone courtesy in cavalry battles is utterly false.

I knew you'd resort to lying and assaults at Poles but i hoped you got a bit less trollish, you did not, i'm done reading your posts again, just wanted to straight up your lies:))

As you say that most German forces had advanced between 40km and 60km into Poland, you must therefore agree that the German forces had not been held at the border. If they'd been held at the border, they wouldn't have even advanced 4 to 6km!


In that case, I suggest that you pay a visit to Krasnobród and tell them that their museum has got it all wrong! Also please rewrite the Wikipedia page for the battle and contact the authors quoted on WP that they're completely wrong.


My statement was that in the battle of Krasnobród nobody allowed the other side time to form up. I stand by that statement and note that you have produced not a single source to back your position about that battle. It is interesting that you believe Guderian, I assume that you also believe his lie about Polish cavalry charging tanks.


And here you are quoting from a source which lies about Poles to make them look bad while you also lie about Poles and make them look bad. What a true patriot you are!

well, true enough

Have you ever taken apart a M1 Garand?, along with a Gewehr-43?, and a MP-44? ( at the same time) the Op-Rod, Gas Tube, and the Rotating Bolt are all pretty much copies of John Garand's Design, which remember, Garand's work on the T-1's Rifle's started back in the early/mid 1920's, which pre'date's anything the German's were working on.

and for the Record, the Most important people in Post 1850 Firearm's Design, are Sam Colt, Benjamin Herny, John Browning, John Thompson, Hiram Maxim, Dr. Richard J. Gatling, Carl Walther and John Garand, and neither Walther or Garand were American's!.

Source:
First to Fight: Poland's Contribution to the Allied Victory in WWII
Publisher: Polish Underground Movement (1939-45) Study Trust, London, England.
1 September 2009
ISBN-13: 978-0955782442

No they are not:)


Sure they are :)

Basically i cant be bugged to respond to Americans who think they know what makes the world tick and what makes the world tick is US.

Stg 43 and Stg 44 use different parts, non of them them borrow from M1 or any US design, period.

What you mean (and what we all know) is that whenever you are confronted with somebody who has the factual knowledge to prove that you have been talking out of your arse (examples above being your knowledge of the battle of Krasnobród, the first 72 hours of the German invasion and the design of certain weapons), you know you have been exposed as somebody who habitually talks out of his arse and always reply by saying that you can't be bothered to reply when it is clear to all that you simply can not reply!

Also to be specific as to how much you lie and what kind of bullsh*t you serve here.

Stg44 does not use a rotating bolt at all, what you posted here is a fat lie, the Stg44 uses a tilting bolt thats one, two, it uses a short stroke piston while the M1 uses a long one.

Completely different parts, completely different design, any other chauvinist lie you wish to serve us? Both the semi and fully automatic guns were domestic products of Germany, superior to and developed independently of the American product.

Harry

A serious fault in logic again, Harry.

Not really: somebody who thinks that he is fighting for what is best for Poland and fighting solely for that reason can not be a traitor. You of all people should know that!

Mets before you post any more ignorant bull, the only, only technical or conceptual similarity between German Stg44 and M1 was that they used an intermiediate bullet, and even that concept is not taken from US since German army postulated the need for an intermiadiete bullet as early as 1923.

aye,so fast they made the romanian border in days.....


Your right,copied from the Finnish saumi....muppet.


Face it,if "you" were that fookin good you wouldnt have been occupied until 1989 ...muppet....

Still slower then French:) z


Its spelled Suomi and Suomi KP-31 was a submachinegun, Stg44 was an assault rifle, smgs and automatic rifles use completely different parts, there's no physical way for a rifle to be a copy of smg but hey you didnt even know the name :)))


Oh if you wouldnt betray us in 1939 its unlikely anyone would have been occupied.

Now get the fock out you little prick :)

Please refrain from insulting members, they are allowed to have their point of view in this discussion as well as you. If you can't discuss without using derogatory language, your best bet would be to give the thread a miss.

Yeah I know Poland can just easily beat Nazi Germany, Soviet union, USA, Japan, China,Italy and Great Britain! Ooo we should have used all that power but we are pascifists! (LOL)

With your way of thinking alliances should have been abolished long time ago...

That's kind of like the way you pretended to ignore me when I confronted you with my factual knowledge and you instead chose to post lies, like you did with Dowding's comments and my anecdote on the cavalry skirmish. It makes me wonder how many more lies you've posted on this forum that aren't as easy to verify and refute...


then onto Great Britain where without future recompense but on the (subsequently incorrect) understanding that as HMG's first ally they wouldn't later be betrayed (and would indeed be assisted in kind), fought for HMG's government from the BoB until the last shot of WW2 and then under the very gaze of HMG marched back to Poland where payment in full courtesy of the Teheran Conference (and indeed probably other 'deals' that we will never know about but can rightly speculate on) manifested with either a further march to the Gulag, a show trial then a hanging by piano wire (or if lucky a shot to the nape), suicide, judicial murder, and at the very least, life under a totalitarian regime for the next 50 odd years. Poland having fast tanks didn't really serve it well in the end, did it?

General Gubbins, in aptly describing HMG attititude toward, and use of, Poland, said "Of course, they'll simply be dropped overboard. We expect to squeeze as much as we can out of them, and then we'll drop them".

Prophetic indeed, and it allows one's lines of enquiry to ask of HMG - who knew that Poland was to be used in that fashion, was it conscionable and morally just, when was it first known, and why did the people who did know not do anything to stop it, or, at the very least, tell 'Poland' so that its government and executive could have made a decision on whether or not it was worthwhile to continue fighting for an 'ally' who at the end intended to cast them adrift.

Oh look, it's my very favourite racist liar! Well done you for making a whole post without even a single racist slur in it, those classes you're taking are really helping aren't they?

Unfortunately your lying is as bad as ever. My comments about Dowding's remarks are plain to see. Do point out my lies about his remarks. As for the cavalry battle: I love how a Canadian who thinks that adolfhitlerresearchsociety.org is a good read and source of historical fact and an Aussie who has never set foot in Europe are trying to tell me about a battle which happened in a town I've been to and about what the town museum has extensive displays. You've read books about it: I've been there and seen the equipment which was used!

I did not ignore your post, I said there's no way I'm going to waste my life reading your textual masturbation. You can call it "the Sword of Ozi Danocles" but the rest of us recognise it as the whittering of somebody so pathetic that he claims to be a proud Polish patriot despite having never even bothered to visit Poland.


Bye then.


This is fascinating! Can you go into more detail about the Polish contribution to the war against Japan? I wasn't aware that Polish units fought after the end of the European conflict but you say that they fought until the last shot. Do tell us more.

there were a couple of Polish pilots who joined the USAAF and fought around Pacific. Did that happen after the end of war in Europe or sooner I can't remember. I'll try to do some search on that.

Witold Urbanowicz, joined Flying Tigers in China to fight the Japanese and had two confirmed air victories there (and a couple of others claimed)

Yeah I remember reading a little bit of it. The americans looked at him as an some kind of Guru or something, wich knew everything and everywhere (since he was good in noticing enemy airplanes)

well he was one of the top Polish air aces - second in the confirmed air victories tally during the whole war (although he didn't fly combat missions for the most part of the war)

well it was his personal skill of course - but I think much can be attributed to how pilots were selected and trained in the pre-war Poland