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Malinowo: Polish-Nazi Supression?


Novichok 1 | 2,079
15 Feb 2021 #241
No matter the pain or suffering,

As noble as you may feel in this role, even parents who love their stray son eventually come to the point where an fu is appropriate. Poles are overdue in this respect.

Next time the subject of Poles and Jews comes up, try it and you will be amazed how liberated you will feel.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #242
@jon357
Poland has never had as large a population as it has now, it's part of a Union of European nations. Part of NATO.

Politically there is a lot of catching up, it's improving day by day. The hardships have been at a great cost, which only makes it harder to give up.

Freedom for all of humanity must go on, never lose hope

@Novichok
I have experienced it plenty of times, no need for me to imagine conflicts I have experienced before
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #243
Politically there is a lot of catching up,

This much is true.

Poland has nothing to hide; it's much better to acknowledge the darker things in the past rather than obfuscate or attempt to censor mentions of them. Being open makes people more understanding of the suffering and appreciative of the good things.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #244
@jon357
Which darker past are you thinking about?
Novichok 1 | 2,079
15 Feb 2021 #245
it's much better to acknowledge the darker things

NO!!!!!! Admit nothing!!!!. The burden of proof is on the accusers!!!!!
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #246
darker past

There's plenty of dark things in any country that has been occupied by a brutal and savage oppressor.

The man who collaborated with the Nazis in Malinowo for example, the one with exactly the same name as the man who saved Jews (that the lawsuit referred to in this thread is about) is a good example.

The behaviour of one doesn't cancel or balance out the behaviour of the other. Life doesn't work like that.. However both stories are part of the same past. If part of the past is downplayed at any given time, it will stand out all the more later.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #247
@Novichok
Poland got nothing to hide, they can try all day. Even if I have to show a naked chest.

Again @jon357
We are talking about Poland's dark past. Not that of a few individuals. We are not talking about a few individuals who happened to be born and learned Polish growing up on the geographical territory of Poland. Show me, name me political parties collaborating with Nazi-Germany, list of SS troops. Underground movements fighting on Germans side. Go on
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #248
Poland got nothing to hide,

Nothing at all. Although as we see in this thread, there are those who would hide things that don't need to be hidden and shouldn't be hidden.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #249
@jon357
Cause for many (on this forum to) is to prove/show ones loyalty&allegiance. Especially in a situation seen as an attack. What you see as lawful criticism , many Poles see as political subterfuge. Which is why it should be discussed internally, you even imagining Poland capable of such sinister governance creates hostility from the get go. Because your taking a relativistic stance on this
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #250
Which is why it should be discussed internally,

part of the issue is that it never was discussed internally. And now an attempt to stifle historians has gone worldwide. Anyone reading the articles about the affair in any one of the 50 countries in which it's been reported now think that Poland is trying to hide things.

Much better to be objective and transparent from the get go, and situations like this (it isn't the first and probably won't be the last) won't arise.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #251
@jon357
In an ideal, loving peaceful world yes. But with the polarization in the U.S it's quite difficoult. A lot of journalists will use this for sensationalism and politicians for political coin in their own country. Poland has very few allies abroad, and a lot of issues to solve. Thankfully less then in 1918 or 1989, still a lot to do
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #252
with the polarization in the U.S it's quite difficoult

It's always been like that.

Poland has very few allies abroad

And even fewer enemies.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #253
@jon357
Not allways, I remember seeing an documentary of U.S polarization. There was a lot more cross party co-operation in the U.S congress in the past.

Now, especially with the Trump impeachment it's quite easily spotted. Faction vs faction, few acting for the best of the country, easily pushed to the side. Extremist views growing etc, branding an opposing side an extreme version of the opponent their meet etc

Thankfully, Germany is now more democratically operating then ever. Trading and co-operating with her neighbors, not having to fear invasion from neither France or Poland.

Austria reduced to a minor state, and only state that has any potential to endanger Poland is the Russian Federation, the most democratically governed form of Russia in history. So Poland's greatest goal is to reduce Russia's willingness to invade states in general (especially Poland) and create as much communication and contact with everyday Russians, trade and share culture.
Novichok 1 | 2,079
15 Feb 2021 #254
Especially in a situation seen as an attack.

Why would you even bother to explain such things to a vagrant who is hellbent on promoting and supporting the enemies of the US, the country that did him no wrong, and now Poland that should have never allowed him in, if it were possible. These people are stateless with loyalties to nothing.
Strzelec35 20 | 1,143
15 Feb 2021 #255
lol your great country also deported me remember that.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,960
15 Feb 2021 #256
@Novichok
Cause he is a human being, and I shall see him as one. As long as he wishes to talk (in this case write) I will treat him as one.

Love is the choice I made, even for those who consider me their enemies. As long as they don't force me to shoot at them, I will chose dialogue
Novichok 1 | 2,079
15 Feb 2021 #257
I will choose dialogue

Dialogs are between friends. These stateless vagrants are anything but and it's been a war here from day one.

I used to be impressed with "scientists" and "historians" when I was 14. Today, I need to know who is funding their "research". Follow the money, as they say.

Publish or perish is their game. So, they look for the next low hanging scab because somebody is ready to pay for scab picking. See "global warming".

Back to Poland and Jews. After 75 years of "research", the target, Poland, has zero obligation to assist. You (editorial) have new evidence? Great. File a lawsuit and we will see you there. It's really that simple. That is why I urged posters here to admit nothing. Only the truly naive believe that life is about truth-seeking when money is involved.

In the court of law, the accused can cross-examine or depose the accuser, and lying is risky as opposed to some conference where lying is allowed and is never punished.
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #258
Faction vs faction

There's always been the "wojna Polsko Polska", for centuries, with most people not extreme but tending to one side.

Personally I prefer the Poland of Pilsudski, Korczak, Holland, Gross, Gombrowicz, Narutowicz and Tuwim to the Poland of Dmowski, Bubel, Rydzyk, Miedlar and Korwin-Mikke.

Extremist views growing

This makes it all the more important to be objective, transparent and to not give the impression of trying to manipulate the historical narrative. Truth and only truth wins in the end.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
15 Feb 2021 #259
even imagining Poland capable of such sinister governance

Well, Polish history should tell you that Poland is more than capable of it. Remember that democracy is a very new concept in Poland - even PiƂsudski had no problem with tramping all over it when it suited his agenda.

The danger in Poland right now is in assuming that democracy is as strong here as it is in the UK or the Nordic states.
OP Lyzko 29 | 7,255
15 Feb 2021 #260
Until '45, defeated Germany had been the most recalcitrantly un- yea ANTI-democratic country in all Europe, whose Weimar Republic was about the most tragi-comic joke of modern history, prior of course to Chamberlain's "assurance" that "Herr Hitler desires peace in our time!LOL
Novichok 1 | 2,079
15 Feb 2021 #261
We are talking about Poland's dark past.

Again, a naked allegation with no specifics. Not cool.
Compared to its neighbors from hell, Poland, if it were a person, should be a saint now.
Miloslaw 8 | 2,862
15 Feb 2021 #262
We need to admit that a small number of Poles were anti semitic.( I will count some of my family in there).
But we also need to aknowledge that a huge number of Poles gave up their lives and often their families lives, to save Jews.
Ask the Jews.... they will tell you
I hate all this Polish bashing from ignorant people that could not possibily understand the situation of Polish people in those horrendous times.
Using todays "standards" to judge peoples actions over 75 years ago is just wrong.
OP Lyzko 29 | 7,255
15 Feb 2021 #263
Then by that paultry definition, Novi, sainthood was tainted by devilry undisguided.
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #264
that a huge number of Poles gave up their lives and often their families lives, to save Jews.

This should be praised in and cherished as an example of human goodness.

Using the courts to attempt to suppress evidence of the exact opposite behaviour however just makes people wonder what's true and what isn't and call into question what they've heard from reliable sources. It's an insult to those people who did risk (in some cases lose) their and their families life to save other humans to try to obfuscate events during that period and the full horror of the times in which they had to live.

Is Poland robust enough as a country to be transparent about the past or not?
Novichok 1 | 2,079
15 Feb 2021 #265
We need to admit that a small number of Poles were antisemitic.

That is shallow without defining anti-semitic, the reasons for it, and if the Jews were as open and loving toward the Poles as they should be in gratitude for being allowed to exist as a separate nation for centuries - morally, if not legally.

Is Poland robust enough as a country to be transparent about the past

Would you be transparent about your life to a stranger who wants to investigate Milo and everyone in Milo's tree, or would you simply say fo and fu?
OP Lyzko 29 | 7,255
15 Feb 2021 #266
As I'd already mentioned many times, Poland had a broader resistance movement than nearly any other European country, brave, unsung heroes, showing us that even a bunch of rotten apples can't ruin the whole crop!!
Miloslaw 8 | 2,862
15 Feb 2021 #267
That is shallow

No.Your post is shallow.
You are not prepared, as I am, to admit that some of my family were overtly anti semitic.
I am not discussijg the reasons why.
I want to at first establish that this was a fact amongst many Poles of my fathers generation.
Once we establish that FACT.
We can then discuss the reasons why that may have happened.
Until we reach that point, that discussion is over.
OP Lyzko 29 | 7,255
15 Feb 2021 #268
Poles, similar to the Austrians, but unlike the Germans, often seem unwilling to admit to either anti-Semitism or even Nazi leanings in wartime Poland.
OP Lyzko 29 | 7,255
15 Feb 2021 #270
To which "they" were you referring?

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